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Author Topic: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth  (Read 2819 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2018, 02:30:39 PM »
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  • Regarding the condemnation of the Mystical City of God by Mary of Agreda

    1. It violated the decree of Pope Urban VIII (March 13, 1625)
    2. It narrated apocryphal stories.
    3. It presented opinions of the Duns Scotus theological school as divine revelation.
    4. Mary of Agreda pictured the earth in the form of an egg, i.e. that the earth has a spherical shape.
    5. It exaggerated the cult of Our Lady to the extent of obscuring the great Mystery of the Incarnation.

    The problem with saying the earth was shaped liked an egg was not that it opposed a belief in flat earth.  This is no evidence of any Catholics in the 17th century believing the earth was flat.  At that time, Catholics believed the earth was a perfect sphere.

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    In another memorable passage, Sor Maria describes herself in orbit around the earth, which she describes as “egg-shaped and slightly flattened at the poles.” This account itself was scandalous. According to the Pythagorean and Ptolmaic astronomy prevailing in official Catholic dogma, the earth, as a divinely-created orb, had to be perfectly spherical – no deviation from the spherical was permitted.
    http://www.prairieuprising.com/ontheconversionofthejumanoindians.htm

    (I do not think it is technically correct to refer spherical earth as an official dogma, although it is true that the Ptolemaic model was favoured by the Church and a factor in the condemnation of Galileo.)  


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
    « Reply #16 on: April 06, 2018, 12:46:36 PM »
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  • .
    Pope Innocent XI in 1681 annulled the act which was a clandestine prohibition against the book. He did not condemn the book.
    I did some research on this and found conflicting accounts of what happened.  Most seem to agree that Pope Innocent XI both condemned Ciudad (basically rubber-stamping the Sorbonne recommendation) and three months later removed the condemnation, at least for Spain/ the original Spanish version. There is disagreement about the extent of this removal, some claiming the entire Church was affected while others claim it was limited.

    We can see that happenby used one of the sources which said there was a condemnation by the Pope in 1681, an account by James A. Carrico.  This author was a farmer with a devotion to Mary of Agreda who publicized her life and cause with various booklets and pamphlets.  He was not a historian, just a devout man who wanted to share helpful information.

    It seems that Carrico drew the information quoted by happenby from Cardinal Hergenrother's reputable Church history.  Compare the Carrico quote with this passage from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

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    [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]Hergenröther, in his Kirchengeschichte (trad. franc., VI, p. 416 — V. Palmé, Paris, 1892), informs us that the condemnation of the book by the Roman Inquisition, in 1681, was thought to have come from the fact either that, in its publication, the Decree of Urban VIII, of 14 March, 1625, had been disregarded, or because it contained apocryphal stories, and maintained opinions of the Scotist school as Divine revelations. Some blamed the writer for having said that she saw the earth under the form of an egg, and that it was a globe slightly compressed at the two poles, all of which seemed worthy of censure. Others condemned her for exaggerating the devotion to the Blessed Virgin and for obscuring the mystery of the Incarnation. 

    Carrico seems to have misunderstood the significance of the bolded statement.  Even historians influenced by the myths of White and Draper, thought that Catholics accepted the earth was spherical after Columbus proved it with his voyage. (In fact, educated Catholics believed in a spherical earth throughout the medieval period.) Even White and Draper would not have claimed that Catholics believed in a flat earth and the time of the Sorbonne condemnation, almost 200 years after Columbus.   

    But Carrico was not a historian.  He inserted the explanation that describing the earth as egg-shpaed was saying that "our globe has a spherical shape with poles." He seems to have thought that people blaming Sor Maria for writing that the earth was a globe must mean that they thought the earth was flat.  He apparently did not know that the Ptolemaic model (the main one with Church approval at this point) placed a lot of emphasis on the earth being a perfect sphere and they would see a description of the sphere being a bit squashed as disagreement with the Ptolemaic model.

    At any rate, the subject line of this thread is completely incorrect.  Pope Urban VIII never condemned Sor Maria's writings or said anything about these describing the earth as a sphere. Pope Innocent XI may have condemned her writings (according to some sources) before soon withdrawing the condemnation, but not because he thought the earth was flat.  Those who thought her description of the earth worthy of censure did so because they thought the earth was a perfect sphere, rather than spheroid.  


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
    « Reply #17 on: April 06, 2018, 05:00:21 PM »
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  • Quote
    At any rate, the subject line of this thread is completely incorrect.  Pope Urban VIII never condemned Sor Maria's writings or said anything about these describing the earth as a sphere. Pope Innocent XI may have condemned her writings (according to some sources) before soon withdrawing the condemnation, but not because he thought the earth was flat.  Those who thought her description of the earth worthy of censure did so because they thought the earth was a perfect sphere, rather than spheroid. .
    .
    It's quite reasonable for them to have argued over the perfection of the earth's sphere, since they were accustomed to make absolutely intractable proclamations in regards to the "immutability" of the sun and stars. They paraded their pet theory around as if it were God's own word, such that when sunspots were first discovered, they lashed out with accusations of "heresy!" against the observers.
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    The flat-earthers of today are imitating their myopic pronouncements.
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    This thread title is much like many of happenby's posts, where she's groping at straws, searching for the so-called missing link.
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    She believes there MUST be some little shred of "proof" for her fantasy-passion that has been hidden by dark forces.
    .
    Like a B mystery novel, there's yet another chapter and more dead ends to the hunt.

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    Offline cassini

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    Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
    « Reply #18 on: April 26, 2018, 06:12:40 AM »
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  • I have found this thread as referenced on another thread
    https://www.cathinfo.com/the-earth-god-made-flat-earth-geocentrism/pope-urban-viii-makes-condemnation-because-of-spherical-earth/15/?action=post;last_msg=603055

    This is a most interesting and for me very important in the story of the Copernican revolution and the Galilean reformation. Mary of Agreda (1602-1665) wrote of an egg-shaped Earth. Thus Mary lived at the time the Church condemned the fixed-sun solar system as formal heresy followed by its decrees ending in 1664, one year before her birth with Pope Alexander VII's Bull confirming by his papal authority all the anti-Copernican decrees (banning books etc) were to be placed on the index to be obeyed by all.

    Some may not be aware but the shape of the Earth had a very important part in establishing the heretical Heliocentrism and the evolution of the Earth as scientific fact, as they like to believe.
    Newton claimed the Earth, because it spins in the heliocentric model, had to have as bulge around the center or equator.

    Here is another such assertion: ‘The Earth is a sphere flattened at the poles and with a bulge at the equator; this figure is called an ellipsoid of revolution. In order to account for its present shape, we must call upon what is known as ‘centrifugal force,’ and we must also make the hypothesis that in its earlier history [post Big Bang] the Earth was much nearer the fluid state than it is now.' Larousse Encyclopedia, 1959, p.78.’

    There was however, one man who did not fall for Newton's heliocentrism, his theory of gravity, his solar-system, nor his heliocentric shape of the Earth, God's astronomer and surveyor, Domenico Cassini (1625-1712), who lived 40 years of Mary of Agreda'a time. Cassini decided to examine the shape of the Earth using the science of geodesy.  King Louis XIV approved and financed the test and with his son Jacques measured the arcs of meridian for the northern hemesphere. To cut a long story short they found the earth narrower at the sides and more pointed at the poles.

    This suggested that if this trend occurred in the southern hemisphere, the Earth has to be a prolate spheroid, not flattened at the poles as Newton proposed, but the opposite, slightly pointed, with the equatorial axis shorter than the polar axis, that is, kind of egg-shaped. In 1720, the Cassinis published their findings.

    This prolate spheroid, of course, was completely at odds with Newton’s oblate spheroid. Nevertheless, in spite of the Cassinian measurements, and we are talking about two of the most respected surveyors and measuring astronomers in the world at the time, the British scientists, William Whiston, freemason John Theophilus Desaguliers, and John Keill continued to acclaim Newton’s theory as the true one.

    Again to make a long story short, the Freemasons were not having it so they sent out their surveyors to 'correct' the Cassinian result and by by hook and crook made the Cassinian shape look false and Newton's correct. and that is how it remained for centuries until 1959 another measurement for the Earth was achieved this time using a satellite called Vanguard. This found the Nt Pole higher and the side narrower, confirming Cassini's Nt hemesphere shaped like an egg.

    Later, it was speculated that because of the constant movement of the stars, an absolute 100% accuracy cannot be confirmed. Nevertheless, neither have Mary of Agreda nor Domenico Cassini been proven wrong in their egg-shaped earth that contradicts Newton's spinning Earth and its evolution from paste and star dust.



    Offline aryzia

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    Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
    « Reply #19 on: April 28, 2018, 02:09:25 PM »
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  • They are proven wrong by the Fathers, science and math. In order for earth to be an egg there has to be curvature. Curvature is non existent. Water surface must also curve, provably a false premise.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
    « Reply #20 on: April 29, 2018, 01:44:18 AM »
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  • They are proven wrong by the Fathers, science and math. In order for earth to be an egg there has to be curvature. Curvature is non existent. Water surface must also curve, provably a false premise.
    .
    I know, you don't want to hear this, but aryzia, you're wrong. Again.
    .
    Science and math do not "prove" any such thing. There is no consensus of the Fathers regarding natural observable reality. The Church has never demanded that we would believe in opposition to what we can see, test and reason. Some eggs are very close to spherical but not perfectly so, and that's what the earth is, not exactly spherical. It's spheroidal. Curvature is everywhere we look on planet Earth. The surface of the ocean curves along with the crust of the planet under the ocean.
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    Offline BC

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    Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
    « Reply #21 on: April 29, 2018, 09:11:01 AM »
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  • .
    I know, you don't want to hear this, but aryzia, you're wrong. Again.
    .
    Science and math do not "prove" any such thing. There is no consensus of the Fathers regarding natural observable reality. The Church has never demanded that we would believe in opposition to what we can see, test and reason. Some eggs are very close to spherical but not perfectly so, and that's what the earth is, not exactly spherical. It's spheroidal. Curvature is everywhere we look on planet Earth. The surface of the ocean curves along with the crust of the planet under the ocean.
    .
    Can you make sense of why then the "big blue marble" images we are getting from NASA depict a perfectly spherical earth?

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
    « Reply #22 on: April 29, 2018, 10:45:59 AM »
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  • Can you make sense of why then the "big blue marble" images we are getting from NASA depict a perfectly spherical earth?
    Because it's closer to a perfect sphere than an actual marble is. 


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
    « Reply #23 on: April 29, 2018, 08:48:54 PM »
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  • Can you make sense of why then the "big blue marble" images we are getting from NASA depict a perfectly spherical earth?
    .
    Real life isn't a cartoon. 
    Viewed from outer space the earth may appear to be "perfectly spherical" to a superficial viewer but that doesn't mean it really is perfectly spherical. 
    The sphericity of the earth is something that has to be detected with sensitive measurements.
    The amount off of perfectly spherical isn't something that shows up in such images as the difference could be less than one pixel.
    But the difference is nonetheless real.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
    « Reply #24 on: April 30, 2018, 05:39:08 PM »
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  • Because it's closer to a perfect sphere than an actual marble is.
    .
    Maybe it would help if you could better describe what you mean by "an actual marble." 
    .
    Such as, which is more spherical, "an actual marble" or an industrial ball bearing of the same size?
    And compare those to say a bowling ball, a basketball or a soap bubble in zero gravity and zero ambient air currents.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
    « Reply #25 on: May 01, 2018, 02:27:50 PM »
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  • .
    Maybe it would help if you could better describe what you mean by "an actual marble."
    .
    Such as, which is more spherical, "an actual marble" or an industrial ball bearing of the same size?
    And compare those to say a bowling ball, a basketball or a soap bubble in zero gravity and zero ambient air currents.
    .
    have you never heard of marbles 


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
    « Reply #26 on: May 01, 2018, 05:45:20 PM »
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  • have you never heard of marbles

    .
    Have you never heard of losing your marbles?
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