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Traditional Catholic Faith => Fighting Errors in the Modern World => The Earth God Made - Flat Earth, Geocentrism => Topic started by: happenby on March 15, 2018, 01:21:32 PM

Title: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
Post by: happenby on March 15, 2018, 01:21:32 PM
Regarding the condemnation of the Mystical City of God by Mary of Agreda

1. It violated the decree of Pope Urban VIII (March 13, 1625)
2. It narrated apocryphal stories.
3. It presented opinions of the Duns Scotus theological school as divine revelation.
4. Mary of Agreda pictured the earth in the form of an egg, i.e. that the earth has a spherical shape.
5. It exaggerated the cult of Our Lady to the extent of obscuring the great Mystery of the Incarnation.

152 Masters of the Borbonne discussed the Mystical City on thirty-two sessions, July 2-14, 1696.  102 of the 152 Masters voted against the book.

At all events, Blessed Innocent signed the condemnation on June 26, 1681.
Title: Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
Post by: Neil Obstat on March 15, 2018, 02:10:33 PM
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But the Mystical City of God by Ven. Maria of Agreda has received more papal commendations than almost any other book.
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Perhaps you read "commendation" and you thought it said condemnation.
Title: Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
Post by: Neil Obstat on March 15, 2018, 02:27:24 PM
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HOW WAS “CIUDAD” (CITY OF GOD) RECEIVED?
As soon as the “City of God” appeared in print it was welcomed and extolled as a most wonderful work. The different translations found no less enthusiastic welcome in nearly all the European countries. It secured the immediate approbation and encomium of the ordinaries, the universities, the learned and eminent men of Christendom. There is probably no other book which was so closely scrutinized by those in authority, both civil and religious and afterwards so signally approved as the “City of God.” By order of Innocent XL, Alexander VIIL, Clement IX., Benedict XIIL, and Benedict XIV. it was repeatedly subjected to the closest scrutiny and declared authentic, worthy of devout perusal and free from error. The title “Venerabilis” was conferred upon the author. A large sized volume would be required to record the praises and commendations written in favor of the great “City of God.”

OPPOSITION
As the “City of God” so strenuously maintains the prerogatives of the Mother of God and the authority of the Popes, it was not to be expected that it should escape the malicious slander and intrigues of those tainted with Jansenism and Gallicanism. Many members of the Sorbonne in Paris were secret or open adherers of these sects at the time when the “Ciudad” was first published in French about the year 1678. The first translation in French was very inexact and contained many interpolations and false versions of the original. Dr. Louis Elias du Pin and Dr. Hideux of the Sorbonne made this translation the foundation of virulent attacks. Du Pin was called by Pope Clement XI, “Nequioris doctrinse homi-nem,” “A man of pernicious doctrines.” Hideux turned out to be a rabid and fanatical Jansenist, cut off from the Church as a heretic. As they and other members of the Sorbonne succeeded in enlisting the sympathy of influential Gallican courtiers and church dignitaries, both in Paris and at Rome, they secured a clandestine prohibition of the “City of God,” which appeared in the acts of the Congregation of the Office. When it was discovered, no one could be found who would dare stand 1–2 sponsor for it, and immediately Pope Innocent XI, on November 9, 1681, annulled the act, positively decreeing that the “City of God” be freely spread among the clergy and laity. The very fact that this prohibition did not issue from the Index Commission but from a department not concerned with the examination of books, proves that it owes its insertion to Gallican intrigue, secretly extending even to high circles in Rome, and to the fair-minded, this sectarian attempt will be a convincing argument for the excellence and orthodoxy of the doctrines contained in the revelations of Mary of Agreda.
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https://www.ecatholic2000.com/agreda/mystical/city.shtml
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Pope Innocent XI in 1681 annulled the act which was a clandestine prohibition against the book. He did not condemn the book.
You have your information backwards, as usual, happenby. Better luck next time. (or not.)
Title: Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
Post by: Neil Obstat on March 15, 2018, 03:03:21 PM
Quote from: happenby on March 15, 2018, 01:21:32 PM
Regarding the condemnation of the Mystical City of God by Mary of Agreda

1. It violated the decree of Pope Urban VIII (March 13, 1625)
2. It narrated apocryphal stories.
3. It presented opinions of the Duns Scotus theological school as divine revelation.
4. Mary of Agreda pictured the earth in the form of an egg, i.e. that the earth has a spherical shape.
5. It exaggerated the cult of Our Lady to the extent of obscuring the great Mystery of the Incarnation.

152 Masters of the Borbonne [Sorbonne!] discussed the Mystical City on thirty-two sessions, July 2-14, 1696.  102 of the 152 Masters voted against the book. 

At all events, Blessed Innocent signed the condemnation on June 26, 1681.
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You have mistaken Sorbonne as "Borbonne" so you probably got commendation confused with condemnation.
Title: Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
Post by: happenby on March 15, 2018, 03:10:38 PM
Quote from: Neil Obstat on March 15, 2018, 02:10:33 PM
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But the Mystical City of God by Ven. Maria of Agreda has received more papal commendations than almost any other book.
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Perhaps you read "commendation" and you thought it said condemnation.
Doesn't matter.  The idea being, the Pope condemned writings that taught the globe...for that reason. 
Title: Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
Post by: happenby on March 15, 2018, 03:12:37 PM
Quote from: Neil Obstat on March 15, 2018, 03:03:21 PM
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You have mistaken Sorbonne as "Borbonne" so you probably got commendation confused with condemnation.
Misspelling is a mistake.  Not the condemnation.
Title: Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
Post by: Neil Obstat on March 15, 2018, 03:18:24 PM
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MANY EDITIONS
The popularity and excellence of the great history of the Mother of God is also evidenced by its widespread diffusion. It has appeared in over sixty editions in Spanish, Italian, French, Portuguese, German, Latin, Arabic, Greek, and Polish. Does it not seem providential that the first English translation of this great work should have been reserved for our own times? No other language on the face of the earth is the medium of so many theories, sects and isms [including flat-earthism] as the English language, and the “City of God” is a most timely and efficient antidote for the epidemic of false doctrines [like flat-earthism], which is sweeping over all the earth, and affects especially the English-speaking portion of the human race.

EXPECTATIONS OF THE TRANSLATOR
The translator and promoter of the “City of God” is confident that it will not be one of the books idly filling the shelves of libraries, but one which at the first cursory inspection will arouse the desire of further inquiry and lead to repeated and attentive perusal.

The translation herewith offered is as exact and as perfect a rendition of the original Spanish into English, as ten years of assiduous labor and a considerable experience in literary production give a right to expect. The subject-matter surely ought to secure for it a proper place in the more elevated ranks of English Literature.

May this first English translation, under the guidance of our holy faith, bring forth abundant fruits of the Spirit among English-speaking people in all parts of the world [even if they are flat-earthers].

APPROBATIONS
THE first Pope officially to take notice of “Ciudad de Dios” was Pope Innocent XI, who, on July 3, 1686, in response to a series of virulent attacks and machinations of some members of the Sorbonne, known to be Jansenists, issued a breve permitting the publication and reading of the “Ciudad de Dios.” Similar decrees were afterward issued by Popes Alexander VIII, Clement IX and Benedict XIII. These decrees were followed by two decrees of the Congregation of Rites, approved by Benedict XIV and Clement XIV, in which the authenticity of “Ciudad de Dios” as extant and written by the Venerable Servant of God, Mary of Jesus, is officially established. The great pope Benedict XIII, when he was archbishop of Benevent, used these revelations as material for a series of sermons on the Blessed Virgin. On Sept. 26, 1713, the bishop of Ceneda, Italy, objecting to the publication of the “City of God,” was peremptorily ordered by the Holy Office to withdraw his objections as interfering with the decree of pope Innocent XI for the universal Church.

The process of canonization of Mary of Agreda was promoted by the Spanish bishops and other eminent men of the Church soon after her death in 1666. It has resulted so far in securing her the title of Venerabilis, thus clearing the way to her beatification, for which, let us hope, God will soon raise a promoter among the many pious and eminent men [among whom there are no flat-earthers] who hold in esteem her writings and have learned of her holy life and of the miracles wrought at her tomb.
Title: Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
Post by: Neil Obstat on March 15, 2018, 03:32:31 PM
Quote from: happenby on March 15, 2018, 03:10:38 PM
Doesn't matter.  The idea being, the Pope condemned writings that taught the globe...for that reason.
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The Papal Bull, Sanctissimus Dominus Noster (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctissimus_Dominus_Noster) of 13 March 1625 had absolutely nothing to do with the earth as a globe. 
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You're wrong, again, and again, and again.
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Do you enjoy being wrong all the time? Maybe that should be Chapter 1 in your "cosmology" book (?)
--- Chapter I.  Enjoyment of being wrong.
Title: Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
Post by: happenby on March 15, 2018, 03:33:56 PM
Quote from: Neil Obstat on March 15, 2018, 03:18:24 PM
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MANY EDITIONS
The popularity and excellence of the great history of the Mother of God is also evidenced by its widespread diffusion. It has appeared in over sixty editions in Spanish, Italian, French, Portuguese, German, Latin, Arabic, Greek, and Polish. Does it not seem providential that the first English translation of this great work should have been reserved for our own times? No other language on the face of the earth is the medium of so many theories, sects and isms [including flat-earthism] as the English language, and the “City of God” is a most timely and efficient antidote for the epidemic of false doctrines [like flat-earthism], which is sweeping over all the earth, and affects especially the English-speaking portion of the human race.

EXPECTATIONS OF THE TRANSLATOR
The translator and promoter of the “City of God” is confident that it will not be one of the books idly filling the shelves of libraries, but one which at the first cursory inspection will arouse the desire of further inquiry and lead to repeated and attentive perusal.

The translation herewith offered is as exact and as perfect a rendition of the original Spanish into English, as ten years of assiduous labor and a considerable experience in literary production give a right to expect. The subject-matter surely ought to secure for it a proper place in the more elevated ranks of English Literature.

May this first English translation, under the guidance of our holy faith, bring forth abundant fruits of the Spirit among English-speaking people in all parts of the world [even if they are flat-earthers].

APPROBATIONS
THE first Pope officially to take notice of “Ciudad de Dios” was Pope Innocent XI, who, on July 3, 1686, in response to a series of virulent attacks and machinations of some members of the Sorbonne, known to be Jansenists, issued a breve permitting the publication and reading of the “Ciudad de Dios.” Similar decrees were afterward issued by Popes Alexander VIII, Clement IX and Benedict XIII. These decrees were followed by two decrees of the Congregation of Rites, approved by Benedict XIV and Clement XIV, in which the authenticity of “Ciudad de Dios” as extant and written by the Venerable Servant of God, Mary of Jesus, is officially established. The great pope Benedict XIII, when he was archbishop of Benevent, used these revelations as material for a series of sermons on the Blessed Virgin. On Sept. 26, 1713, the bishop of Ceneda, Italy, objecting to the publication of the “City of God,” was peremptorily ordered by the Holy Office to withdraw his objections as interfering with the decree of pope Innocent XI for the universal Church.

The process of canonization of Mary of Agreda was promoted by the Spanish bishops and other eminent men of the Church soon after her death in 1666. It has resulted so far in securing her the title of Venerabilis, thus clearing the way to her beatification, for which, let us hope, God will soon raise a promoter among the many pious and eminent men [among whom there are no flat-earthers] who hold in esteem her writings and have learned of her holy life and of the miracles wrought at her tomb.
Again, it doesn't matter.  The Pope condemned the writings because she said earth is a globe.  That is the mind of the Church giving you a clue.   I hope Mary of Agreda is canonized, despite the problems, perhaps discounting her personal understanding.  So much for those who say the moving earth, or stationary sun were the only problems.  Heliocentrism in its entirety is a serious problem to this day.  And the Church has been trying to tells us all along.    
Title: Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
Post by: happenby on March 15, 2018, 03:35:19 PM
Quote from: Neil Obstat on March 15, 2018, 03:32:31 PM
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The Papal Bull, Sanctissimus Dominus Noster (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctissimus_Dominus_Noster) of 13 March 1625 had absolutely nothing to do with the earth as a globe.
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You're wrong, again, and again, and again.
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Do you enjoy being wrong all the time? Maybe that should be Chapter 1 in your "cosmology" book (?)
--- Chapter I.  Enjoyment of being wrong.
Sorry, this is reality.  Get over yourself.  The Bull speaks to another one of the five problems, not the globe.  Your mistake. 
Title: Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
Post by: kiwiboy on March 15, 2018, 05:55:56 PM
yes Mary of agreda is fine, but the Church was against the globe.

The Church now is in favour of giving Holy Communion to transgenders. Does Neil want to go in that direction?
Title: Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
Post by: Neil Obstat on March 16, 2018, 11:34:08 PM
Quote from: happenby on March 15, 2018, 03:35:19 PM
Sorry, this is reality.  Get over yourself.  The Bull speaks to another one of the five problems, not the globe.  Your mistake.
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Why don't you go read your title of your thread again. Maybe you forgot your own topic.
Title: Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
Post by: Neil Obstat on March 16, 2018, 11:35:17 PM
Quote from: kiwiboy on March 15, 2018, 05:55:56 PM
yes Mary of agreda is fine, but the Church was against the globe.

The Church now is in favour of giving Holy Communion to transgenders. Does Neil want to go in that direction?
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A little dissension in the ranks, now? This is the kiwiboy vs. happenby disagreement thread?
Title: Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
Post by: roscoe on March 17, 2018, 01:32:18 AM
E rev around S :sleep:
Title: Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
Post by: happenby on March 18, 2018, 07:20:19 PM
From: The Life of Venerable Mary of Agreda
By James A. Carrico
Pg. 88


Title: Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
Post by: Jaynek on April 05, 2018, 02:30:39 PM
Quote from: happenby on March 15, 2018, 01:21:32 PM
Regarding the condemnation of the Mystical City of God by Mary of Agreda

1. It violated the decree of Pope Urban VIII (March 13, 1625)
2. It narrated apocryphal stories.
3. It presented opinions of the Duns Scotus theological school as divine revelation.
4. Mary of Agreda pictured the earth in the form of an egg, i.e. that the earth has a spherical shape.
5. It exaggerated the cult of Our Lady to the extent of obscuring the great Mystery of the Incarnation.

The problem with saying the earth was shaped liked an egg was not that it opposed a belief in flat earth.  This is no evidence of any Catholics in the 17th century believing the earth was flat.  At that time, Catholics believed the earth was a perfect sphere.

Quote
In another memorable passage, Sor Maria describes herself in orbit around the earth, which she describes as “egg-shaped and slightly flattened at the poles.” This account itself was scandalous. According to the Pythagorean and Ptolmaic astronomy prevailing in official Catholic dogma, the earth, as a divinely-created orb, had to be perfectly spherical – no deviation from the spherical was permitted.
http://www.prairieuprising.com/ontheconversionofthejumanoindians.htm (http://www.prairieuprising.com/ontheconversionofthejumanoindians.htm)

(I do not think it is technically correct to refer spherical earth as an official dogma, although it is true that the Ptolemaic model was favoured by the Church and a factor in the condemnation of Galileo.)  
Title: Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
Post by: Jaynek on April 06, 2018, 12:46:36 PM
Quote from: Neil Obstat on March 15, 2018, 02:27:24 PM
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Pope Innocent XI in 1681 annulled the act which was a clandestine prohibition against the book. He did not condemn the book.
I did some research on this and found conflicting accounts of what happened.  Most seem to agree that Pope Innocent XI both condemned Ciudad (basically rubber-stamping the Sorbonne recommendation) and three months later removed the condemnation, at least for Spain/ the original Spanish version. There is disagreement about the extent of this removal, some claiming the entire Church was affected while others claim it was limited.

We can see that happenby used one of the sources which said there was a condemnation by the Pope in 1681, an account by James A. Carrico.  This author was a farmer with a devotion to Mary of Agreda who publicized her life and cause with various booklets and pamphlets.  He was not a historian, just a devout man who wanted to share helpful information.

It seems that Carrico drew the information quoted by happenby from Cardinal Hergenrother's reputable Church history.  Compare the Carrico quote with this passage from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Quote
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color]Hergenröther (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07262a.htm), in his Kirchengeschichte (trad. franc., VI, p. 416 — V. Palmé, Paris, 1892), informs us that the condemnation of the book by the Roman Inquisition (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08026a.htm), in 1681, was thought to have come from the fact either that, in its publication, the Decree (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04670a.htm) of Urban VIII (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15218b.htm), of 14 March, 1625, had been disregarded, or because it contained apocryphal (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01601a.htm) stories, and maintained opinions of the Scotist (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13610b.htm) school (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13554b.htm) as Divine revelations. Some blamed the writer for having said that she saw the earth under the form of an egg, and that it was a globe slightly compressed at the two poles, all of which seemed worthy of censure. Others condemned her for exaggerating the devotion to the Blessed Virgin (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm) and for obscuring the mystery of the Incarnation. 

Carrico seems to have misunderstood the significance of the bolded statement.  Even historians influenced by the myths of White and Draper, thought that Catholics accepted the earth was spherical after Columbus proved it with his voyage. (In fact, educated Catholics believed in a spherical earth throughout the medieval period.) Even White and Draper would not have claimed that Catholics believed in a flat earth and the time of the Sorbonne condemnation, almost 200 years after Columbus.   

But Carrico was not a historian.  He inserted the explanation that describing the earth as egg-shpaed was saying that "our globe has a spherical shape with poles." He seems to have thought that people blaming Sor Maria for writing that the earth was a globe must mean that they thought the earth was flat.  He apparently did not know that the Ptolemaic model (the main one with Church approval at this point) placed a lot of emphasis on the earth being a perfect sphere and they would see a description of the sphere being a bit squashed as disagreement with the Ptolemaic model.

At any rate, the subject line of this thread is completely incorrect.  Pope Urban VIII never condemned Sor Maria's writings or said anything about these describing the earth as a sphere. Pope Innocent XI may have condemned her writings (according to some sources) before soon withdrawing the condemnation, but not because he thought the earth was flat.  Those who thought her description of the earth worthy of censure did so because they thought the earth was a perfect sphere, rather than spheroid.  
Title: Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
Post by: Neil Obstat on April 06, 2018, 05:00:21 PM
Quote
At any rate, the subject line of this thread is completely incorrect.  Pope Urban VIII never condemned Sor Maria's writings or said anything about these describing the earth as a sphere. Pope Innocent XI may have condemned her writings (according to some sources) before soon withdrawing the condemnation, but not because he thought the earth was flat.  Those who thought her description of the earth worthy of censure did so because they thought the earth was a perfect sphere, rather than spheroid. .
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It's quite reasonable for them to have argued over the perfection of the earth's sphere, since they were accustomed to make absolutely intractable proclamations in regards to the "immutability" of the sun and stars. They paraded their pet theory around as if it were God's own word, such that when sunspots were first discovered, they lashed out with accusations of "heresy!" against the observers.
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The flat-earthers of today are imitating their myopic pronouncements.
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This thread title is much like many of happenby's posts, where she's groping at straws, searching for the so-called missing link.
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She believes there MUST be some little shred of "proof" for her fantasy-passion that has been hidden by dark forces.
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Like a B mystery novel, there's yet another chapter and more dead ends to the hunt.

Title: Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
Post by: cassini on April 26, 2018, 06:12:40 AM
I have found this thread as referenced on another thread
https://www.cathinfo.com/the-earth-god-made-flat-earth-geocentrism/pope-urban-viii-makes-condemnation-because-of-spherical-earth/15/?action=post;last_msg=603055 (https://www.cathinfo.com/the-earth-god-made-flat-earth-geocentrism/pope-urban-viii-makes-condemnation-because-of-spherical-earth/15/?action=post;last_msg=603055)

This is a most interesting and for me very important in the story of the Copernican revolution and the Galilean reformation. Mary of Agreda (1602-1665) wrote of an egg-shaped Earth. Thus Mary lived at the time the Church condemned the fixed-sun solar system as formal heresy followed by its decrees ending in 1664, one year before her birth with Pope Alexander VII's Bull confirming by his papal authority all the anti-Copernican decrees (banning books etc) were to be placed on the index to be obeyed by all.

Some may not be aware but the shape of the Earth had a very important part in establishing the heretical Heliocentrism and the evolution of the Earth as scientific fact, as they like to believe.
Newton claimed the Earth, because it spins in the heliocentric model, had to have as bulge around the center or equator.

Here is another such assertion: ‘The Earth is a sphere flattened at the poles and with a bulge at the equator; this figure is called an ellipsoid of revolution. In order to account for its present shape, we must call upon what is known as ‘centrifugal force,’ and we must also make the hypothesis that in its earlier history [post Big Bang] the Earth was much nearer the fluid state than it is now.' Larousse Encyclopedia, 1959, p.78.’

There was however, one man who did not fall for Newton's heliocentrism, his theory of gravity, his solar-system, nor his heliocentric shape of the Earth, God's astronomer and surveyor, Domenico Cassini (1625-1712), who lived 40 years of Mary of Agreda'a time. Cassini decided to examine the shape of the Earth using the science of geodesy.  King Louis XIV approved and financed the test and with his son Jacques measured the arcs of meridian for the northern hemesphere. To cut a long story short they found the earth narrower at the sides and more pointed at the poles.

This suggested that if this trend occurred in the southern hemisphere, the Earth has to be a prolate spheroid, not flattened at the poles as Newton proposed, but the opposite, slightly pointed, with the equatorial axis shorter than the polar axis, that is, kind of egg-shaped. In 1720, the Cassinis published their findings.

This prolate spheroid, of course, was completely at odds with Newton’s oblate spheroid. Nevertheless, in spite of the Cassinian measurements, and we are talking about two of the most respected surveyors and measuring astronomers in the world at the time, the British scientists, William Whiston, freemason John Theophilus Desaguliers, and John Keill continued to acclaim Newton’s theory as the true one.

Again to make a long story short, the Freemasons were not having it so they sent out their surveyors to 'correct' the Cassinian result and by by hook and crook made the Cassinian shape look false and Newton's correct. and that is how it remained for centuries until 1959 another measurement for the Earth was achieved this time using a satellite called Vanguard. This found the Nt Pole higher and the side narrower, confirming Cassini's Nt hemesphere shaped like an egg.

Later, it was speculated that because of the constant movement of the stars, an absolute 100% accuracy cannot be confirmed. Nevertheless, neither have Mary of Agreda nor Domenico Cassini been proven wrong in their egg-shaped earth that contradicts Newton's spinning Earth and its evolution from paste and star dust.


Title: Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
Post by: aryzia on April 28, 2018, 02:09:25 PM
They are proven wrong by the Fathers, science and math. In order for earth to be an egg there has to be curvature. Curvature is non existent. Water surface must also curve, provably a false premise.
Title: Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
Post by: Neil Obstat on April 29, 2018, 01:44:18 AM
Quote from: aryzia on April 28, 2018, 02:09:25 PM
They are proven wrong by the Fathers, science and math. In order for earth to be an egg there has to be curvature. Curvature is non existent. Water surface must also curve, provably a false premise.
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I know, you don't want to hear this, but aryzia, you're wrong. Again.
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Science and math do not "prove" any such thing. There is no consensus of the Fathers regarding natural observable reality. The Church has never demanded that we would believe in opposition to what we can see, test and reason. Some eggs are very close to spherical but not perfectly so, and that's what the earth is, not exactly spherical. It's spheroidal. Curvature is everywhere we look on planet Earth. The surface of the ocean curves along with the crust of the planet under the ocean.
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Title: Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
Post by: BC on April 29, 2018, 09:11:01 AM
Quote from: Neil Obstat on April 29, 2018, 01:44:18 AM
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I know, you don't want to hear this, but aryzia, you're wrong. Again.
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Science and math do not "prove" any such thing. There is no consensus of the Fathers regarding natural observable reality. The Church has never demanded that we would believe in opposition to what we can see, test and reason. Some eggs are very close to spherical but not perfectly so, and that's what the earth is, not exactly spherical. It's spheroidal. Curvature is everywhere we look on planet Earth. The surface of the ocean curves along with the crust of the planet under the ocean.
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Can you make sense of why then the "big blue marble" images we are getting from NASA depict a perfectly spherical earth?
Title: Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
Post by: forlorn on April 29, 2018, 10:45:59 AM
Quote from: BC on April 29, 2018, 09:11:01 AM
Can you make sense of why then the "big blue marble" images we are getting from NASA depict a perfectly spherical earth?
Because it's closer to a perfect sphere than an actual marble is. 
Title: Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
Post by: Neil Obstat on April 29, 2018, 08:48:54 PM
Quote from: BC on April 29, 2018, 09:11:01 AM
Can you make sense of why then the "big blue marble" images we are getting from NASA depict a perfectly spherical earth?
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Real life isn't a cartoon. 
Viewed from outer space the earth may appear to be "perfectly spherical" to a superficial viewer but that doesn't mean it really is perfectly spherical. 
The sphericity of the earth is something that has to be detected with sensitive measurements.
The amount off of perfectly spherical isn't something that shows up in such images as the difference could be less than one pixel.
But the difference is nonetheless real.
Title: Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
Post by: Neil Obstat on April 30, 2018, 05:39:08 PM
Quote from: forlorn on April 29, 2018, 10:45:59 AM
Because it's closer to a perfect sphere than an actual marble is.
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Maybe it would help if you could better describe what you mean by "an actual marble." 
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Such as, which is more spherical, "an actual marble" or an industrial ball bearing of the same size?
And compare those to say a bowling ball, a basketball or a soap bubble in zero gravity and zero ambient air currents.
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Title: Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
Post by: forlorn on May 01, 2018, 02:27:50 PM
Quote from: Neil Obstat on April 30, 2018, 05:39:08 PM
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Maybe it would help if you could better describe what you mean by "an actual marble."
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Such as, which is more spherical, "an actual marble" or an industrial ball bearing of the same size?
And compare those to say a bowling ball, a basketball or a soap bubble in zero gravity and zero ambient air currents.
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have you never heard of marbles 
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)
Title: Re: Pope Urban VIII Makes Condemnation Because of Spherical Earth
Post by: Neil Obstat on May 01, 2018, 05:45:20 PM
Quote from: forlorn on May 01, 2018, 02:27:50 PM
have you never heard of marbles
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)
.
Have you never heard of losing your marbles?
(https://s15-us2.startpage.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=https%3A%2F%2Fthumbs.dreamstime.com%2Fb%2Fchinese-checkers-game-board-7025817.jpg&sp=6bdbe1a49ae1f05e7405021dce8fc235)