Author Topic: Phenomenological language in Scripture  (Read 558 times)

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Offline Smedley Butler

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Re: Phenomenological language in Scripture
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2018, 12:11:31 PM »
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  • Jaynek has a very long list of Biblical dogmas that she does not believe in. 

    Offline hismajesty

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    Re: Phenomenological language in Scripture
    « Reply #16 on: February 13, 2018, 12:14:02 PM »
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  • I don't think I would be able to find such a thing, because I suspect the use of that term was introduced with Biblical literary criticism.  The word itself, however, is not important. I could have written that post without using it.  The idea that words in Scripture can refer to how things appear rather than their real nature is very old and St. Thomas writes about it in the Summa.

    well why can't you just use a traditional word then please. You're thread title has a very authoritative ring to it, and is thus misleading.


    Online Meg

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    Re: Phenomenological language in Scripture
    « Reply #17 on: February 13, 2018, 12:20:56 PM »
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  • I don't think I would be able to find such a thing, because I suspect the use of that term was introduced with Biblical literary criticism.  The word itself, however, is not important. I could have written that post without using it.  The idea that words in Scripture can refer to how things appear rather than their real nature is very old and St. Thomas writes about it in the Summa.

    The problem with judging things on how they appear is that is can be subjective. That's the problem with the phenomenology. There are those in the conciliar church today who believe that JP2 confirmed the right and traditional view of religion, in that he was able to show the truths of the Catholic faith through his subjective and observable analysis. But that's a problem, too, in that once something is made subjective, it is susceptible to differing views of reality. And then subjectivity becomes the norm or measure, rather than absolute truth.

    Dietrich von Hildebrand was also an admitted phenomenologist. He rightly saw the terrible changes in the church after the council, but he did not tie them in with the role that phenomenology played in the rise of modernism.

    Progressives have been interpreting St. Thomas to suit their views for awhile now.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Phenomenological language in Scripture
    « Reply #18 on: February 13, 2018, 12:23:08 PM »
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  • To make matters worse, that modernist crap was WRITTEN BY Jaynek.
    She wasn't quoting. Hilarious.

    Well, I apologize for the strong language.  I mistakenly assumed that it was lifted from the link at the bottom of the post.

    Online An even Seven

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    Re: Phenomenological language in Scripture
    « Reply #19 on: February 13, 2018, 12:25:00 PM »
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  • "He sitteth above the compass (literal) of earth,  and the people are spread out like locusts (phenomenological) beneath."
    Is it this Compass? Does God sitteth above this?

    I could find three definitions of the noun compass. The one above, the magnetic one that points north, and the one that is probably meant by Isaiah 40:22.


    Quote
    Compass- the range or scope of something.
    "the event had political repercussions that are beyond the compass of this book"
    synonyms:scope, range, extent, reach, span, breadth, ambit, limits, parameters, bounds
    "faith cannot be defined within the compass of human thought"
    • the enclosing limits of an area.
      "this region had within its compass many types of agriculture"
    • the range of notes that can be produced by a voice or a musical instrument.
      "the cellos were playing in a rather somber part of their compass"



    The passage is referring to all that is within limits of the Earth. It most definitely is not referring to it's shape. If it was, I doubt it was referring to the one in the picture above. Also, as far as I can tell, the magnetic compass was invented in China as a divination device about 600 years after Isaiah was written. Whether those timelines are true or not, it's pretty clear that Scripture is not talking about shapes.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Phenomenological language in Scripture
    « Reply #20 on: February 13, 2018, 12:27:06 PM »
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  • Is it this Compass? Does God sitteth above this?

    I could find three definitions of the noun compass. The one above, the magnetic one that points north, and the one that is probably meant by Isaiah 40:22.


    Not to mention that it's a huge mistake to interpret Scripture based on ENGLISH translations of it.

    Online An even Seven

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    Re: Phenomenological language in Scripture
    « Reply #21 on: February 13, 2018, 12:29:34 PM »
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  • Here's my take on firmament.  If there's no such thing as a solid firmament, then it's because the original Hebrew word actually means "expanse" ... the Latin word for which is spatium ... from which we get our word space.  So the original Hebrew did not imply solidity ... even though the Latin translation did ... by way of interpretation.
    St. Basil's and St. John Damascus' view. FYI.

    Basil, Hexaemeron, 1: 8. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. If we were to wish to discover the essence of each of the beings which are offered for our contemplation, or come under our senses, we should be drawn away into long digressions, and the solution of the problem would require more words than I possess, to examine fully the matter. To spend time on such points would not prove to be to the edification of the Church. Upon the essence of the heavens we are contented with what Isaiah says, for, in simple language, he gives us sufficient idea of their nature, The heaven was made like smoke, that is to say, He created a subtle substance, without solidity or density, from which to form the heavens.

    John of Damascus, An Exposition of the Orthodox Faith: Since , therefore, the Scripture speaks of heaven, and heaven of heaven , and heavens of heavens , and the blessed Paul says that he was snatched away to the third heaven 2 Corinthians 12:2, we say that in the cosmogony of the universe we accept the creation of a heaven which the foreign philosophers, appropriating the views of Moses, call a starless sphere. But further, God called the firmament also heaven Genesis 1:8, which He commanded to be in the midst of the waters, setting it to divide the waters that are above the firmament from the waters that are below the firmament. And its nature, according to the divine Basilius , who is versed in the mysteries of divine Scripture, is delicate as smoke.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Phenomenological language in Scripture
    « Reply #22 on: February 13, 2018, 12:31:53 PM »
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  • bzzzt.  This crosses over from phenomenological / metaphorical language into blatant error.

    Because it looked to "them" (who's "them" ... since the Holy Spirit is the author of Sacred Scripture?) to be hard, they "mistakenly" described it as such.  Because the idiots saw a blue sky, they mistakenly concluded that there was water up there.  This is not phenomenological language at all ... but blatant error.  Phenomenological language might include things like "and then the sun set".

    This is nothing but modernist crap.

    Here's my take on firmament.  If there's no such thing as a solid firmament, then it's because the original Hebrew word actually means "expanse" ... the Latin word for which is spatium ... from which we get our word space.  So the original Hebrew did not imply solidity ... even though the Latin translation did ... by way of interpretation.

    This passage above makes the people who wrote Scripture into a bunch of ignoramuses whose ignorance somehow broke through the authorship of Scripture by the Holy Spirit to inject their errors into it.
    Providentissimus Deus includes a statement that the Sacred authors "put down what God, speaking to men, signified, in the way men could understand and were accustomed to."  Are you disagreeing with that or do you think I am not applying it properly?

    I checked the BDB Lexicon on the Hebrew and I don't think it supports your translation of "raqia".  It gives the meanings "extended surface, (solid) expanse (as if beaten out; (cf Job 37:18 )), flat expanse (as if of ice), as base, support, hence the vault of heaven  or "firmament" regarded by Hebrews as solid and supporting waters above it."  It comes from a root word that refers to beating out sheets of metal, so that seems like a pretty strong connotation of solidity to me.  I'd say the Vulgate firmamentum captures the Hebrew better than your suggestion does.

    I don't think you can avoid the problems of taking this literally by translating your way out of it.  
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is


    Online An even Seven

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    Re: Phenomenological language in Scripture
    « Reply #23 on: February 13, 2018, 12:34:22 PM »
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  • I don't think I would be able to find such a thing, because I suspect the use of that term was introduced with Biblical literary criticism.  The word itself, however, is not important. I could have written that post without using it.  The idea that words in Scripture can refer to how things appear rather than their real nature is very old and St. Thomas writes about it in the Summa.
    St. John of Damascus talking about Scripture's use of personification. The ending underlined part is especially important to remember and can be applied to a lot of what's being said here. The point of almost all the passages that flat-Earthers and Geocentrist attempt to use as proof of their belief, is to show the power of the Creator.


    John of Damascus, An Exposition of the Orthodox Faith: It must not be supposed that the heavens or the luminaries are endowed with life. For they are inanimate and insensible. So that when the divine Scripture says, Let the heavens rejoice and the earth be glad , it is the angels in heaven and the men on earth that are invited to rejoice. For the Scripture is familiar with the figure of personification, and is wont to speak of inanimate things as though they were animate: for example , The sea saw it and fled: Jordan was driven back. And again, What ailed you, O thou sea, that you fled, you, O Jordan, that you was driven back ? Mountains, too, and hills are asked the reason of their leaping in the same way as we are wont to say, the city was gathered together, when we do not mean the buildings, but the inhabitants of the city: again, the heavens declare the glory of God , does not mean that they send forth a voice that can be heard by bodily ears, but that from their own greatness they bring before our minds the power of the Creator: and when we contemplate their beauty we praise the Maker as the Master-Craftsman.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Phenomenological language in Scripture
    « Reply #24 on: February 13, 2018, 12:37:41 PM »
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  • well why can't you just use a traditional word then please. You're thread title has a very authoritative ring to it, and is thus misleading.
    In hindsight, I think you are right.  
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Phenomenological language in Scripture
    « Reply #25 on: February 13, 2018, 12:40:59 PM »
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  • Well, I apologize for the strong language.  I mistakenly assumed that it was lifted from the link at the bottom of the post.
    No problem.  Perhaps I can take it as a compliment to the professionalism of my writing style, if not to the orthodoxy of my ideas.  :D
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is


    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Phenomenological language in Scripture
    « Reply #26 on: February 13, 2018, 01:35:49 PM »
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  • Is it this Compass? Does God sitteth above this?

    I could find three definitions of the noun compass. The one above, the magnetic one that points north, and the one that is probably meant by Isaiah 40:22.




    The passage is referring to all that is within limits of the Earth. It most definitely is not referring to it's shape. If it was, I doubt it was referring to the one in the picture above. Also, as far as I can tell, the magnetic compass was invented in China as a divination device about 600 years after Isaiah was written. Whether those timelines are true or not, it's pretty clear that Scripture is not talking about shapes.
    You're painfully dumb.
    You didn't read your dictionary very far either.
    What SHAPE does that noun make? A circle.
    But compass is alse a VERB: to encircle, go around. 
    As in, "I will COMPASS thine altar, O Lord."
    Or don't you follow at Mass?

    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Phenomenological language in Scripture
    « Reply #27 on: February 13, 2018, 01:44:49 PM »
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  • In hindsight, I think you are right.  
    Mr Garrison is always misleading, and thinks quite a lot of herself,  as evidenced above where she thinks Lad was complimenting her condescending writing style
    .

    Online An even Seven

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    Re: Phenomenological language in Scripture
    « Reply #28 on: February 13, 2018, 01:53:58 PM »
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  • You're painfully dumb.
    You didn't read your dictionary very far either.
    What SHAPE does that noun make? A circle.
    But compass is alse a VERB: to encircle, go around.
    As in, "I will COMPASS thine altar, O Lord."
    Or don't you follow at Mass?
    Am I dumb for taking your translation of the Verse literally? Isn't that what you are doing just using a different definition? Anyway, all the Hebrew Bible translations I've seen say "circle". A definition of circle can be "the area within which something acts, exerts influence, etc.; realm; sphere" So the circle of the earth could be His area in which He acts or His realm of the Earth.

    Dictionary.com also has this as the 16th definition of circle: it even seems to use Isaiah 40:22 as an example. Curious.

    Quote
    16. a sphere or orb:                
    "the circle of the earth."
    So your reading of Scripture as the Earth being in the shape of a circle is your bias as a flat-Earther, not necessarily what Scripture is trying to convey.

    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Phenomenological language in Scripture
    « Reply #29 on: February 13, 2018, 03:02:35 PM »
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  • Am I dumb for taking your translation of the Verse literally? Isn't that what you are doing just using a different definition? Anyway, all the Hebrew Bible translations I've seen say "circle". A definition of circle can be "the area within which something acts, exerts influence, etc.; realm; sphere" So the circle of the earth could be His area in which He acts or His realm of the Earth.

    Dictionary.com also has this as the 16th definition of circle: it even seems to use Isaiah 40:22 as an example. Curious.
    So your reading of Scripture as the Earth being in the shape of a circle is your bias as a flat-Earther, not necessarily what Scripture is trying to convey.
    We've covered this ad nauseam. 
    Circle = 2D
    Sphere = 3D
    St Augustine, Basil, & Lactantius taught "earth round like a trencher (cheesboard) and not round like a ball. "

     

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