Author Topic: Phenomenological language in Scripture  (Read 762 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Smedley Butler

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1098
  • Reputation: +440/-1355
  • Gender: Male
Re: Phenomenological language in Scripture
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2018, 12:11:31 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!2
  • Jaynek has a very long list of Biblical dogmas that she does not believe in. 

    Offline hismajesty

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 135
    • Reputation: +89/-258
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Phenomenological language in Scripture
    « Reply #16 on: February 13, 2018, 12:14:02 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I don't think I would be able to find such a thing, because I suspect the use of that term was introduced with Biblical literary criticism.  The word itself, however, is not important. I could have written that post without using it.  The idea that words in Scripture can refer to how things appear rather than their real nature is very old and St. Thomas writes about it in the Summa.

    well why can't you just use a traditional word then please. You're thread title has a very authoritative ring to it, and is thus misleading.
    "....I am at a loss what to say respecting those who, when they have once erred, consistently persevere in their folly, and defend one vain thing by another" - Church Father Lactentius on the globe earth


    Offline Meg

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2540
    • Reputation: +1186/-1828
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Phenomenological language in Scripture
    « Reply #17 on: February 13, 2018, 12:20:56 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • I don't think I would be able to find such a thing, because I suspect the use of that term was introduced with Biblical literary criticism.  The word itself, however, is not important. I could have written that post without using it.  The idea that words in Scripture can refer to how things appear rather than their real nature is very old and St. Thomas writes about it in the Summa.

    The problem with judging things on how they appear is that is can be subjective. That's the problem with the phenomenology. There are those in the conciliar church today who believe that JP2 confirmed the right and traditional view of religion, in that he was able to show the truths of the Catholic faith through his subjective and observable analysis. But that's a problem, too, in that once something is made subjective, it is susceptible to differing views of reality. And then subjectivity becomes the norm or measure, rather than absolute truth.

    Dietrich von Hildebrand was also an admitted phenomenologist. He rightly saw the terrible changes in the church after the council, but he did not tie them in with the role that phenomenology played in the rise of modernism.

    Progressives have been interpreting St. Thomas to suit their views for awhile now.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 14616
    • Reputation: +7671/-2383
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Phenomenological language in Scripture
    « Reply #18 on: February 13, 2018, 12:23:08 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • To make matters worse, that modernist crap was WRITTEN BY Jaynek.
    She wasn't quoting. Hilarious.

    Well, I apologize for the strong language.  I mistakenly assumed that it was lifted from the link at the bottom of the post.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 14616
    • Reputation: +7671/-2383
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Phenomenological language in Scripture
    « Reply #19 on: February 13, 2018, 12:27:06 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Is it this Compass? Does God sitteth above this?

    I could find three definitions of the noun compass. The one above, the magnetic one that points north, and the one that is probably meant by Isaiah 40:22.


    Not to mention that it's a huge mistake to interpret Scripture based on ENGLISH translations of it.


    Offline Jaynek

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2806
    • Reputation: +1282/-718
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Phenomenological language in Scripture
    « Reply #20 on: February 13, 2018, 12:31:53 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • bzzzt.  This crosses over from phenomenological / metaphorical language into blatant error.

    Because it looked to "them" (who's "them" ... since the Holy Spirit is the author of Sacred Scripture?) to be hard, they "mistakenly" described it as such.  Because the idiots saw a blue sky, they mistakenly concluded that there was water up there.  This is not phenomenological language at all ... but blatant error.  Phenomenological language might include things like "and then the sun set".

    This is nothing but modernist crap.

    Here's my take on firmament.  If there's no such thing as a solid firmament, then it's because the original Hebrew word actually means "expanse" ... the Latin word for which is spatium ... from which we get our word space.  So the original Hebrew did not imply solidity ... even though the Latin translation did ... by way of interpretation.

    This passage above makes the people who wrote Scripture into a bunch of ignoramuses whose ignorance somehow broke through the authorship of Scripture by the Holy Spirit to inject their errors into it.
    Providentissimus Deus includes a statement that the Sacred authors "put down what God, speaking to men, signified, in the way men could understand and were accustomed to."  Are you disagreeing with that or do you think I am not applying it properly?

    I checked the BDB Lexicon on the Hebrew and I don't think it supports your translation of "raqia".  It gives the meanings "extended surface, (solid) expanse (as if beaten out; (cf Job 37:18 )), flat expanse (as if of ice), as base, support, hence the vault of heaven  or "firmament" regarded by Hebrews as solid and supporting waters above it."  It comes from a root word that refers to beating out sheets of metal, so that seems like a pretty strong connotation of solidity to me.  I'd say the Vulgate firmamentum captures the Hebrew better than your suggestion does.

    I don't think you can avoid the problems of taking this literally by translating your way out of it.  
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline Jaynek

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2806
    • Reputation: +1282/-718
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Phenomenological language in Scripture
    « Reply #21 on: February 13, 2018, 12:37:41 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • well why can't you just use a traditional word then please. You're thread title has a very authoritative ring to it, and is thus misleading.
    In hindsight, I think you are right.  
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline Jaynek

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2806
    • Reputation: +1282/-718
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Phenomenological language in Scripture
    « Reply #22 on: February 13, 2018, 12:40:59 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Well, I apologize for the strong language.  I mistakenly assumed that it was lifted from the link at the bottom of the post.
    No problem.  Perhaps I can take it as a compliment to the professionalism of my writing style, if not to the orthodoxy of my ideas.  :D
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is


    Offline Smedley Butler

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1098
    • Reputation: +440/-1355
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Phenomenological language in Scripture
    « Reply #23 on: February 13, 2018, 01:35:49 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Is it this Compass? Does God sitteth above this?

    I could find three definitions of the noun compass. The one above, the magnetic one that points north, and the one that is probably meant by Isaiah 40:22.




    The passage is referring to all that is within limits of the Earth. It most definitely is not referring to it's shape. If it was, I doubt it was referring to the one in the picture above. Also, as far as I can tell, the magnetic compass was invented in China as a divination device about 600 years after Isaiah was written. Whether those timelines are true or not, it's pretty clear that Scripture is not talking about shapes.
    You're painfully dumb.
    You didn't read your dictionary very far either.
    What SHAPE does that noun make? A circle.
    But compass is alse a VERB: to encircle, go around. 
    As in, "I will COMPASS thine altar, O Lord."
    Or don't you follow at Mass?

    Offline Smedley Butler

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1098
    • Reputation: +440/-1355
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Phenomenological language in Scripture
    « Reply #24 on: February 13, 2018, 01:44:49 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!2
  • In hindsight, I think you are right.  
    Mr Garrison is always misleading, and thinks quite a lot of herself,  as evidenced above where she thinks Lad was complimenting her condescending writing style
    .

    Offline Smedley Butler

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1098
    • Reputation: +440/-1355
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Phenomenological language in Scripture
    « Reply #25 on: February 13, 2018, 03:02:35 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!2
  • Am I dumb for taking your translation of the Verse literally? Isn't that what you are doing just using a different definition? Anyway, all the Hebrew Bible translations I've seen say "circle". A definition of circle can be "the area within which something acts, exerts influence, etc.; realm; sphere" So the circle of the earth could be His area in which He acts or His realm of the Earth.

    Dictionary.com also has this as the 16th definition of circle: it even seems to use Isaiah 40:22 as an example. Curious.
    So your reading of Scripture as the Earth being in the shape of a circle is your bias as a flat-Earther, not necessarily what Scripture is trying to convey.
    We've covered this ad nauseam. 
    Circle = 2D
    Sphere = 3D
    St Augustine, Basil, & Lactantius taught "earth round like a trencher (cheesboard) and not round like a ball. "


    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 16848
    • Reputation: +7972/-568
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Phenomenological language in Scripture
    « Reply #26 on: February 13, 2018, 11:14:11 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • .
    I have a 1609 Catholic Bible that infallibly defines "A firmament" (Genesis 1:6, "And God said: Let there be a firmament made amidst the waters: and let it divide the waters from the waters") as follows: 

    .
    "Chap. 1.   Ver. 6.   A firmament.  By this name is here understood the whole space between the earth, and the highest stars. The lower part of which divideth the waters that are upon the earth, from those that are above in the clouds."
    .
    Consequently, the firmament is not any solid or hard material but rather it is the zone or space between the earth and the highest stars which modern man would call the atmosphere and outer space. The water that is divided is the separation between liquid water as it occurs on the surface of the earth and vaporous water as it occurs in clouds in the sky. The ancient Bible authors had no way of understanding that the principal limit of water vapor is the earth's atmosphere. But today, we know that even in outer space, water can exist albeit in a very sparse and expanded form, with much distance between each water molecule without confines of ambient air pressure.

    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 14616
    • Reputation: +7671/-2383
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Phenomenological language in Scripture
    « Reply #27 on: February 14, 2018, 09:34:24 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Providentissimus Deus includes a statement that the Sacred authors "put down what God, speaking to men, signified, in the way men could understand and were accustomed to."  Are you disagreeing with that or do you think I am not applying it properly?

    I checked the BDB Lexicon on the Hebrew and I don't think it supports your translation of "raqia".  It gives the meanings "extended surface, (solid) expanse (as if beaten out; (cf Job 37:18 )), flat expanse (as if of ice), as base, support, hence the vault of heaven  or "firmament" regarded by Hebrews as solid and supporting waters above it."  It comes from a root word that refers to beating out sheets of metal, so that seems like a pretty strong connotation of solidity to me.  I'd say the Vulgate firmamentum captures the Hebrew better than your suggestion does.

    I don't think you can avoid the problems of taking this literally by translating your way out of it.  

    Well, if the Bible says there's a SOLID expanse above the earth, then there's a solid expanse above the earth.  There's no error in the Bible.

    RAQIA is from the same root as a verb that means to spread out.  It's commonly used of metal, when you beat metal out into a sheet.  But it could just as easily be applied to spreading peanut butter with a knife onto a piece of bread.  Core meaning is to spread something out ... or even stretch out (and would also line up with the "tent" metaphor used elsewhere).  While commonly used in the context of metal, it's can't be considered LIMITED to solid things.

    But your explanation that the people who brought us the Bible (not the Holy Spirit?) were just mistaken in thinking it was solid based on how it looks ... goes beyond phenomenological language to plain error.  It would be quite another thing to say that they used a metaphor with a solid thing (like they did with the tent) to imply the stretching or spreading out.  That's different.  But to say that the author of the Scriptures mistakenly THOUGHT it actually WAS solid is wrong and introduces error into Sacred Scripture.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 14616
    • Reputation: +7671/-2383
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Phenomenological language in Scripture
    « Reply #28 on: February 14, 2018, 09:41:04 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Not even going to address what I said? You called me dumb for doing something you do yourself...constantly. At least try to have a comeback.
    St. Augustine (City of God XVI.9): "As to the fable that there are Antipodes, that is to say, men on the opposite side of the earth, where the sun rises when it sets on us, men who walk with their feet opposite ours, there is no reason for believing it. Those who affirm it do not claim to possess any actual information; they merely conjecture that, since the earth is suspended within the concavity of the heavens, and there is as much room on the one side of it as on the other, therefore the part which is beneath cannot be void of human inhabitants. They fail to notice that, even should it be believed or demonstrated that the world is round or spherical in form, it does not follow that the part of the earth opposite to us is not completely covered with water, or that any conjectured dry land there should be inhabited by men. For Scripture, which confirms the truth of its historical statements by the accomplishment of its prophecies, teaches not falsehood; and it is too absurd to say that some men might have set sail from this side and, traversing the immense expanse of ocean, have propagated there a race of human beings descended from that one first man."

    This doesn't sound like a guy who's teaching flat-Earth. He's open to the possibility of a spherical earth.

    Actually, the statement from St. Augustine DOES support flat earth.  He rejects the notion of antipodes, but says that the WORLD is round.  If you look at the ancient cosmology, the OVERALL world was indeed round or spherical because it included the FIRMAMENT as a round DOME.



    So, you see, OVERALL, the WORLD is round and spherical, but the earth itself is flat WITHIN the round world.  This would also address the problem of various private revelations which pictured the WORLD as a globe.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 14616
    • Reputation: +7671/-2383
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Phenomenological language in Scripture
    « Reply #29 on: February 14, 2018, 09:47:45 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • and most ancient peoples had a similar conception --

    Mayas, Incas, Navajos, etc. etc. etc.






    IMO too much of a coincidence.  I am a believer in what's been called "primitive revelation" so that when a bunch of people scattered around the world have very similar concepts about some things, that this knowledge is derived ultimately from the first human beings (Adam and Eve).

     

    Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16