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Traditional Catholic Faith => Fighting Errors in the Modern World => The Earth God Made - Flat Earth, Geocentrism => Topic started by: cassini on February 26, 2025, 05:12:45 AM

Title: Our Lady of La Salette on the shape of the Earth
Post by: cassini on February 26, 2025, 05:12:45 AM
'The seasons will be altered, the earth will produce nothing but bad fruit, the stars will lose their regular motion, the moon will only reflect a faint reddish glow. Water and fire will give the earth's globe convulsions and terrible earthquakes which will swallow up mountains, cities, etc....'

"The seasons will be changed, the earth will produce only bad fruits, the heavenly bodies will lose the regularity of their movements, the moon will reflect only a feeble reddish light; water and fire will lend convulsive motions to the earth's sphere, causing mountains , cities, etc., to be swallowed up..'

Two different ways of giving the message.

Globe:  something spherical or rounded:

Sphere: A sphere (from Greek σφαῖρα, sphaîra) is a geometrical object that is a three-dimensional analogue to a two-dimensional circle. Formally, a sphere is the set ...

Doesn't Our Lady then confirm the shape of the Earth?

Title: Re: Our Lady of La Salette on the shape of the Earth
Post by: Ladislaus on February 26, 2025, 07:02:28 AM
I honestly don't know how many times we have to go through this.  In the FE cosmology, the earth (system), "mundus", continues to be a sphere, as the firmament enclosing the earth is spherical, and that makes perfect sense that the sphere of the earth would be convulsed by whatever's happening, including messing with the regular motion of the stars.  So what effect on the "NASA ball" sphere (where we walk on a ball, vs. the entire world system being spherical) would cause the starts to lose their motion? ... oh, wait, something that messes with the movement of the firmament in which said stars actually reside.

You see words "globe, ball, sphere" and like Pavlov's dogs trained by NASA and the modern scientific establishment you immediately conclude "NASA ball".
Title: Re: Our Lady of La Salette on the shape of the Earth
Post by: cassini on February 26, 2025, 11:39:53 AM
I honestly don't know how many times we have to go through this.  In the FE cosmology, the earth (system), "mundus", continues to be a sphere, as the firmament enclosing the earth is spherical, and that makes perfect sense that the sphere of the earth would be convulsed by whatever's happening, including messing with the regular motion of the stars.  So what effect on the "NASA ball" sphere (where we walk on a ball, vs. the entire world system being spherical) would cause the starts to lose their motion? ... oh, wait, something that messes with the movement of the firmament in which said stars actually reside.

You see words "globe, ball, sphere" and like Pavlov's dogs trained by NASA and the modern scientific establishment you immediately conclude "NASA ball".

Sorry Ladislauis, that argument doesn't work this time. Our Lady's prophesy was about the Earth's globe or sphere reads very specific to me. Our Lady was referring to the problems the EARTH would undergo, not the universe. The idea that Our Lady meant a flat Earth in a global universe will not convince anybody interested in this debate.
Perhaps someone can tell us the French word used by Our Lady and the seers for globe or sphere.


Our Lady said: 'The seasons will be altered, the EARTH will produce nothing but bad fruit, the stars will lose their regular motion, the moon will only reflect a faint reddish glow. Water and fire will give the EARTH's globe (or sphere), convulsions and terrible earthquakes which will swallow up mountains, cities, etc....'




Title: Re: Our Lady of La Salette on the shape of the Earth
Post by: Deusvult on February 26, 2025, 12:52:52 PM
Sorry Ladislauis, that argument doesn't work this time. Our Lady's prophesy was about the Earth's globe or sphere reads very specific to me. Our Lady was referring to the problems the EARTH would undergo, not the universe. The idea that Our Lady meant a flat Earth in a global universe will not convince anybody interested in this debate.
Perhaps someone can tell us the French word used by Our Lady and the seers for globe or sphere.


Our Lady said: 'The seasons will be altered, the EARTH will produce nothing but bad fruit, the stars will lose their regular motion, the moon will only reflect a faint reddish glow. Water and fire will give the EARTH's globe (or sphere), convulsions and terrible earthquakes which will swallow up mountains, cities, etc....'

I am a french speaker and the text is:

Les saisons seront changées, la terre ne produira que de mauvais fruits, les astres perdront leurs
mouvements réguliers, la lune ne reflétera qu’une faible lumière rougeâtre ; l’eau et le feu
donneront au globe de la terre des mouvements convulsifs et d’horribles tremblements de terre
qui feront engloutir des montagnes, des villes, etc…

In english I guess it would mean : Earth's globe. So your text is correct. 
Title: Re: Our Lady of La Salette on the shape of the Earth
Post by: Pax Vobis on February 26, 2025, 12:56:45 PM
The earth IS A GLOBE.  With flat land.

(https://i.imgur.com/O0Nlodc.png)
Title: Re: Our Lady of La Salette on the shape of the Earth
Post by: Deusvult on February 26, 2025, 01:34:39 PM
The earth IS A GLOBE.  With flat land.

(https://i.imgur.com/O0Nlodc.png)
From the center of the flat earth model, how high is the atmosphere?
Title: Re: Our Lady of La Salette on the shape of the Earth
Post by: Pax Vobis on February 26, 2025, 02:48:54 PM

Quote
From the center of the flat earth model, how high is the atmosphere?
Don't know, don't care.  The lack of a working FE model doesn't nullify the theory.  NASA's globe has no working model either; it's been utterly debunked.
Title: Re: Our Lady of La Salette on the shape of the Earth
Post by: Ladislaus on February 26, 2025, 02:55:02 PM
Sorry Ladislauis, that argument doesn't work this time. Our Lady's prophesy was about the Earth's globe or sphere reads very specific to me.

I think you truly have been retarded by your NASA worship.  Seriously?  Even in English we refer to the entire realm we live in as "earth", and not just the dry land that we stand on.  On top of that in the expression globe OF the eath, what does the possessive mean?  Does she say that the earth/land IS a globe?  No, but that it HAS a globe or that the globe belongs to the earth.  As typical with the NASA-ball types you just read into it what you want to see there.

So you're telling me that you can't refer to what Our Lord in this "Salvator Mundi" is holding as the "globe of the earth"?  that the globe surroundting the earth and attached to the earth and pertaining to the earth cannot be called the "globe OF the earth"?

(https://images.fineartamerica.com/images/artworkimages/mediumlarge/2/christ-as-salvator-mundi-flemish-school.jpg)

On top of that, when dealing with cosmology, the "earth" is contrasted with the "heaven", as in the expression "heaven and earth", es cieux et la terre, where the contrast is between the heavens and the earth, as in the Creed where we believe that God created the heaven and the earth?  Is the "earth" here limited to just the dirt that we walk on or the earth meaning the system that includes everything that lives on it, i.e. as in the broader sense of God having created "the visible and the invisible"?
Title: Re: Our Lady of La Salette on the shape of the Earth
Post by: Ladislaus on February 26, 2025, 03:06:53 PM
That's to say nothing of the fact that various published/printed version of "the Secret" appear to contradict one another and that it would appear that Melanie herself had some variations on it.
Title: Re: Our Lady of La Salette on the shape of the Earth
Post by: Deusvult on February 26, 2025, 03:27:21 PM
What’s the difference between “NASA’s globe” and Copernic’s astrology model?
Title: Re: Our Lady of La Salette on the shape of the Earth
Post by: OABrownson1876 on February 26, 2025, 03:45:21 PM
On the Galileo question I suggest Hertz' article.  She said that the condemnation of Galileo was signed by seven judges, but not by the pope, and therefore was not an ex-cathedra pronouncement.  The same, coincidentally, can be said of the Fr. Feeney situation.   
Title: Re: Our Lady of La Salette on the shape of the Earth
Post by: Ladislaus on February 26, 2025, 03:50:21 PM
On the Galileo question I suggest Hertz' article. She said that the condemnation of Galileo was signed by seven judges, but not by the pope, and therefore was not an ex-cathedra pronouncement. The same, coincidentally, can be said of the Fr. Feeney situation. 

So ... while I do believe that the pope wholeheartedly approved the condemnation of heliocentrism, you do point out the same contradiction that I have where I've asked those who claim that "Suprema Fake" was practically dogma to explain why they are not geocentrists, since the Holy Office declared that non-geocentrism is proximate to heresy (a higher note of condemnation than SH laid down), and I also asked them why (most of them) reject the Holy Office affirmation that explicit knowledge of the Holy Trinity and salvation are necessary by necessity of means for salvation (in asserting that infidels can be saved).  You get no answer, but we know that the answer is that they hold up as authoritative those things which they happen to agree with but are inconsistent in ignoring the rest.
Title: Re: Our Lady of La Salette on the shape of the Earth
Post by: Tradman on February 26, 2025, 03:52:16 PM
'...water and fire will lend convulsive motions to the earth's sphere, causing mountains , cities, etc., to be swallowed up..'

[color=var(--theme-col-txt-title)]sphere and realm are synonyms - Power Thesaurus (https://www.powerthesaurus.org/sphere+realm/synonyms)[/url]
[/font][/size][/color]
This doesn't necessarily mean the earth is a sphere in this sentence.  In fact, the way it's worded, because the two words are interchangeable, the concept of "realm" seems more likely.       
Title: Re: Our Lady of La Salette on the shape of the Earth
Post by: Tradman on February 26, 2025, 04:05:03 PM
On the Galileo question I suggest Hertz' article.  She said that the condemnation of Galileo was signed by seven judges, but not by the pope, and therefore was not an ex-cathedra pronouncement.  The same, coincidentally, can be said of the Fr. Feeney situation. 

Official texts on the subject can be found in several places.  In addition to this quote (below) there are several in the book "Burned Alive" by AA Martinez that show three popes were involved in condemnations against heliocentrism and the Pythagorean doctrine. 

According to The Earthmovers, both Pope Paul V in 1616 and Pope Urban VIII in 1633 condemned Heliocentrism and the Pythagorean doctrine of Galileo. With Urban VIII universally publicizing the verdict: On 2nd, July 1633, under orders of Pope Urban VIII, the condemnation of heliocentrism was made universally public, not just confined to Galileo alone as some apologists would argue later. Copies of the sentence and Galileo’s abjuration were sent to all vicar nuncios and inquisitors who in turn made them known to professors of philosophy and theology throughout the Catholic world. - Prologue, p. 9


   
Title: Re: Our Lady of La Salette on the shape of the Earth
Post by: Gray2023 on February 27, 2025, 04:34:45 AM
You know until any of us travel in the sky to see the shape of the earth, this argument will never be resolved. 

I gave up trying to discuss this when it was determined that the 24 hour sun in Antarctica was just another hoax. 

If you believe that people can't have invincible ignorance, then this topic should prove otherwise. Both sides hold strong to what they believe.
Title: Re: Our Lady of La Salette on the shape of the Earth
Post by: cassini on February 27, 2025, 06:05:32 AM
I think you truly have been retarded by your NASA worship.  Seriously?  Even in English we refer to the entire realm we live in as "earth", and not just the dry land that we stand on.  On top of that in the expression globe OF the eath, what does the possessive mean?  Does she say that the earth/land IS a globe?  No, but that it HAS a globe or that the globe belongs to the earth.  As typical with the NASA-ball types you just read into it what you want to see there.

So you're telling me that you can't refer to what Our Lord in this "Salvator Mundi" is holding as the "globe of the earth"?  that the globe surroundting the earth and attached to the earth and pertaining to the earth cannot be called the "globe OF the earth"?

(https://images.fineartamerica.com/images/artworkimages/mediumlarge/2/christ-as-salvator-mundi-flemish-school.jpg)

On top of that, when dealing with cosmology, the "earth" is contrasted with the "heaven", as in the expression "heaven and earth", es cieux et la terre, where the contrast is between the heavens and the earth, as in the Creed where we believe that God created the heaven and the earth?  Is the "earth" here limited to just the dirt that we walk on or the earth meaning the system that includes everything that lives on it, i.e. as in the broader sense of God having created "the visible and the invisible"?

Why is it that anyone who even questions the assertion that the Earth is flat, gets insulted and gets a thumbs down? In fact my belief in a global or spherical Earth is because it has been proven by the science not any 'NASA worship.' The shape of the Earth as seen on the moon during an eclipse is always a full sphere. The shifting position of stars as man moved north or south also indicated to them the Earth as a sphere, and finally the science of geodesy, the geometry dealing with the shape and area of the Earth, when extended to long distances, shows it is a sphere. In order to falsify Isaac Newton's bulging Earth that makes it spin like a gyroscope 'proving' heliocentrtism,' Pope Alexander XV's surveyor Domenico Cassini, a geocentrist,  measured the curve of the Earth's globe to prove its shape.
(https://i.imgur.com/RCvltqT.png)
King Louis XIV of France approved Domenico Cassini’s last great expedition. With the aid of his son Jacques Cassini (Cassini II) and others, he measured the arc of meridian (see above) from Paris north to Dunkirk and south to the boundary of Spain, and, in addition, he conducted various associated geodesic and further south astronomical operations that were reported to the French Academy. Cassini knew that it would be virtually impossible to measure every kilometer of meridian from Pole to Pole at the time. At best, a northern measurement would confirm an accurate shape of the Earth. Consequently, they decided to measure where it was most convenient, in Europe in the northern hemisphere. In other words the science of geodesy confirms the Earth is a globe. Others later measured the Earth from the northern hemisphere into the southern hemisphere. It too confirmed its shape.
Title: Re: Our Lady of La Salette on the shape of the Earth
Post by: cassini on February 27, 2025, 06:17:43 AM
On the Galileo question I suggest Hertz' article.  She said that the condemnation of Galileo was signed by seven judges, but not by the pope, and therefore was not an ex-cathedra pronouncement.  The same, coincidentally, can be said of the Fr. Feeney situation. 

Was the 1616 condemnation of heliocentrism (a fixed-sun around which the Earth moves) an infallible condemnation making geocentrism (a fixed-Earth around which the sun and stars revolve). This is such an important and interesting question I will open a separate discussion on this. 
Title: Re: Our Lady of La Salette on the shape of the Earth
Post by: Ladislaus on February 27, 2025, 06:51:49 AM
Was the 1616 condemnation of heliocentrism (a fixed-sun around which the Earth moves) an infallible condemnation making geocentrism (a fixed-Earth around which the sun and stars revolve). This is such an important and interesting question I will open a separate discussion on this.

Yes, it's somewhat disputed, and you make a strong case for this ... though I've seen others claiming the opposite, including the "Catholic Encyclopedia" article on the matter.  Unfortunately, given that it's disputed among Catholics, I don't think someone can make that case of anyone denying it to be guilty of formal heresy ... and the Church would have to weigh in on the matter (when the Church hierarchy has been restored).

That's where sedevacantism from the perspective of "personal heresy" of the papal claimants gets into hot water.  Let's say in this case I contend that you're a heretic of you adhere to heliocentrism.  But some Catholic I say that to responds, "No, I'm not.  That wasn't an infallible teaching."  Can I then accuse the latter of being a formal heretic?  Formal heresy entails rejecting something despite the Church having authoritatively taught it as dogma, but if you have some halfway reasonable argument that the Church has NOT defined it, that on the surface implies that you would not reject it if you believed the Church taught it.  It can get slippery there, and that's why I always focus on the Church's indefectibility rather than personal heresy, since the latter can be real slippery.
Title: Re: Our Lady of La Salette on the shape of the Earth
Post by: Ladislaus on February 27, 2025, 07:00:59 AM
Why is it that anyone who even questions the assertion that the Earth is flat, gets insulted and gets a thumbs down? In fact my belief in a global or spherical Earth is because it has been proven by the science not any 'NASA worship.'

Well, I didn't thumb you down, but I did call you out for your confirmation bias, and it's precisely what Dr. Sungenis was guilty of as well.  You see the word "sphere" or "globe" and automatically just read into it your own prior bias, that "aha! this must be a reference to ball earth".  That's where I said you're retarded by NASA and mainstream science, where your intellectual perspective on the matter has lost objectivity due to your "a priori" adherence to the conventional science.

Sungenis did that constantly.  "Aha! Look.  Church Father says 'sphere'" ... and even in one case he jumped on a mention of "circle".  But if you read the rest of those Fathers, they're clearly talking about she spherical shape of the FIRMAMENT and not the ground we walk on.

Nowhere is this more evident than when Sungenis put on the cover of his book the DaVinci "Salvator Mundi", because Our Lord is depicted as holding a "globe".  Well, look closely, but the "globe" contains both a (flat) earth surface AND the sky with stars in it ... all within said "globe".

So it's absolutely the case that you are unable to objectively look at evidence because you're injecting your prior bias into things, engaging in "eisegesis" as Sungenis refers to it, and that's what is meant by your mind being retarded, aka restrained by your bias.

I'm willing to accept that some Fathers believe the earth was a ball, and for a while I simply accepted the contention that the Fathers did mostly believe in earth globe ... until I actually looked into what they said and realized it was just a pack of lies from people imposing their bias onto it.

Similarly, on other issues, like Baptism of Desire ... you'll regularly find this mendacious contention that the Church Fathers unanimously believed in it.  But if you look, it's just a lie or else a fantasy created by their own bias and wishful thinking, thereby retarding their minds from an actual objective perspective on the evidence.  If you actually look, 7-8 Church Fathers EXPLICITLY reject BoD, St. Ambrose was making a distinction between "washing and crowning", saying that BoD types cannot be "crowned" (aka enter the Kingdom), and St. Augustine tentatively (by his own admission "having gone back and forth, I find") opined in favor of BoD, but then forcefully retracted it after he matured from battling the Pelagians and issued some of the most anti-BoD statements in existence.  So if anything the reality is the OPPOSITE.

I am SO TIRED of INTELLECTUAL DISHONESTY where people just impose their bias onto their reading of the evidence and then apply cognitive dissonance to ignore the evidence contrary to their perspective.  I'm just absolutely sick of it, and I'm going to call it out, including with insults, because that's what it deserves.
Title: Re: Our Lady of La Salette on the shape of the Earth
Post by: Ladislaus on February 27, 2025, 07:06:58 AM
So there's a story about the old Greek philosopher Diogenes where he was caught walking around in the middle of the day with a lighted lantern.  People asked him what the heck he was doing.  He responded that he's going around in search of an "honest man".  That's what I feel like here.  I'm in search of objective truth but am surrounded on all sides by people who have no interest in doing anything but imposing their own prior bias on any "evidence" they might find.  It's gotten to the point of being maddening, and it may be why Diogenes cracked.

(https://cdn.hswstatic.com/gif/diogenes-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Our Lady of La Salette on the shape of the Earth
Post by: WhiteWorkinClassScapegoat on February 27, 2025, 09:41:04 AM
If you believe that people can't have invincible ignorance, then this topic should prove otherwise. Both sides hold strong to what they believe.
Ignorance of an aspect of the material world is not the same as ignorance of the true God. 
If a person can be saved without knowing the true God Jesus Christ, then His passion and sacrifice is pointless. Moreover, there is no point in spreading the Gospels, and all of the martyrs, who were murdered evangelizing in strange lands, died in vain. 
Title: Re: Our Lady of La Salette on the shape of the Earth
Post by: cassini on February 27, 2025, 11:49:06 AM
Yes, it's somewhat disputed, and you make a strong case for this ... though I've seen others claiming the opposite, including the "Catholic Encyclopedia" article on the matter.  Unfortunately, given that it's disputed among Catholics, I don't think someone can make that case of anyone denying it to be guilty of formal heresy ... and the Church would have to weigh in on the matter (when the Church hierarchy has been restored).

That's where sedevacantism from the perspective of "personal heresy" of the papal claimants gets into hot water.  Let's say in this case I contend that you're a heretic of you adhere to heliocentrism.  But some Catholic I say that to responds, "No, I'm not.  That wasn't an infallible teaching."  Can I then accuse the latter of being a formal heretic?  Formal heresy entails rejecting something despite the Church having authoritatively taught it as dogma, but if you have some halfway reasonable argument that the Church has NOT defined it, that on the surface implies that you would not reject it if you believed the Church taught it.  It can get slippery there, and that's why I always focus on the Church's indefectibility rather than personal heresy, since the latter can be real slippery.

Yes Ladislaus, I wrote this up in a recent booklet: When the subject comes up on Catholic forum websites, before most of them ban the discussion, you will find the accusation ‘Are you saying that popes since 1820 are heretics?’ Our answer to this is, ‘It was the Church itself who defined and declared anyone who accepts heliocentrism is guilty of heresy.’ That said, this synthesis also recognises that those Catholics, including ourselves in the past, who, having been taught these things throughout our ‘education’ in school and university, Catholic or not, accepted heliocentrism, natural evolution and the possibility of aliens based on a belief these things were proven by science. So such personal heresies, as ruled by the Catholic Church, are ‘material,’ involving innumerable Catholics as we know. The Catholic Church makes a distinction between material and formal heresy. Material heresy means in effect ‘holding erroneous doctrines through no fault of their own’ due to inculpable ignorance. In this case because they believe the subject matter of Scripture as meaning a fixed-sun has been proven true by science, so ‘is neither a crime nor a sin’ since the individual made the error in good faith. But now that the truth has been explained to them, and Biblical heliocentrism is still promoted, that heresy can no longer be considered material but formal.