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Author Topic: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation  (Read 7091 times)

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Offline happenby

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Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2018, 03:02:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: An even Seven on February 10, 2018, 02:52:58 PM
    Then I guess you have a real problem with understanding words don't you? It's plain for all to see, they think these matters are not useful for one's salvation. We are not talking about all metaphysics and cosmology, we are talking about the shape of the Earth and Heavens etc...a.k.a. useless matters that the Spirit of God,did not wish to teach us through Scripture.
    I don't care what "all see".  Not to mention that is your interpretation.  Even if every last person misses the point, the Church highly values metaphysics and cosmology insofar as they jive with Scripture, for the salvation of men.  That is a fact.  Your clouded view cannot change that. 
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #16 on: February 10, 2018, 03:10:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: happenby on February 10, 2018, 02:51:27 PM
    The oldest translation trumps everything until we decipher the Latin.  In the meantime, the discrepancies of translation make a clear indication that people are fudging words in order to change the meaning.  Sure, we can go to the Latin. When you're done translating, get it verified by some reliable source and get back to us.  And whoever translates ought to show translation regarding the sentence so we can all see for ourselves.
    Apparently, when Ladislaus looked he could not find the Latin online. Even if we find it, there is no point in me translating it since you would reject it. You would need to provide an authority to verify it whom you would agree in advance to accept. I do not want to bother if you will just ignore it as you typically do.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #17 on: February 10, 2018, 03:13:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: happenby on February 10, 2018, 10:41:35 AM
    Back to the Providentissimus Deus discussion

    https://archive.org/details/ DenzingerSourcesOfCatholicDogm a


    This is the oldest version of the PD encyclical I have found.
    Translated by Roy J Deferrari
    The quote:

    "..the Spirit of God, who spoke through them, did not intend to teach these things (...) as being of no profit to salvation..."

    Now, look at the Vatican's modern-day version:

    "...Who spoke by them, did not intend to teach men these things (...) things in no way profitable unto salvation.

     The first version reads: God did not intend to teach as if the things of the natural world DON'T MATTER to salvation. But the second one, by repeating the word THINGS, makes it read as if God did not intend to teach the things of the natural world AT ALL because they DON'T MATTER to salvation.

    This subtle deceptive change of adding words (the version on the Vatican website) imparts a different meaning to the text.  
    All the more reason for people to take care to go to antiquity for reliable sources.

    Everyone needs to stop making arguments from translations.  It's becoming highly annoying.  Only the Latin represents the teaching of the Church.  Every translation, to some extent, involves an interpretation.

    But it's a simple fact that even if the Fathers were to have unanimously held that the earth is flat (and some Church Fathers did not), that does not by itself reveal a DOGMATIC consensus.  There would have to be some notion that this was taught by the Church and handed down from the Apostles as part of the Deposit of Revelation.

    All the quotes I have seen from the Church Fathers do not indicate anything more than that they are OPINING in favor of flat earth.  I get annoyed when people keep using the word "taught" ... that such-and-such a Father "taught" flat earth.  Saying or writing or thinking something doesn't necessarily rise to the level of teaching it.
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    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #18 on: February 10, 2018, 04:01:20 PM »
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    • It's not JUST the addition of the second "things" by the Vatican site that completely changes the meaning of PD.

    It's that the ENTIRE encyclical reads totally differently in its original form.

    In fact, it makes AES & Jaynek's claims even MORE wrong because the original encyclical reads as a MUCH stronger defense of LITERAL Scripture.
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    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #19 on: February 10, 2018, 04:05:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: aryzia on February 10, 2018, 02:39:30 PM
    Actually, the Church teaches that when there are discrepancies, we must go to antiquity.
    TRUTH.
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    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #20 on: February 10, 2018, 04:19:00 PM »
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    • This does NOT read like the Vatican version:

    https://imgur.com/10kUeqw

    https://imgur.com/7l8TjFs
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    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #21 on: February 10, 2018, 04:28:56 PM »
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #22 on: February 10, 2018, 06:04:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 10, 2018, 03:13:24 PM
    Everyone needs to stop making arguments from translations.  It's becoming highly annoying.  Only the Latin represents the teaching of the Church.  Every translation, to some extent, involves an interpretation.

    But it's a simple fact that even if the Fathers were to have unanimously held that the earth is flat (and some Church Fathers did not), that does not by itself reveal a DOGMATIC consensus.  There would have to be some notion that this was taught by the Church and handed down from the Apostles as part of the Deposit of Revelation.

    All the quotes I have seen from the Church Fathers do not indicate anything more than that they are OPINING in favor of flat earth.  I get annoyed when people keep using the word "taught" ... that such-and-such a Father "taught" flat earth.  Saying or writing or thinking something doesn't necessarily rise to the level of teaching it.
    Opining seems less accurate of a term because the Father's writings are always valuable. Even when they opine they are reasoning at least and teaching at best, (unless of course, it contradicts Church teaching). Truth from Scripture and Tradition is imparted to us by the Church. This is a centuries long process.  When searching for truth in any age, since only one thing is true, what is contrary must be false. These threads on flat earth reveal the Church's position in a myriad of ways.  But for those who cannot accept some, at the very least collectively, it shows a trajectory. Can the Church lead us in a direction and it not be 100% true?  Metaphysics and cosmology shape our road to salvation, because they affect our bearings and our view of God and the world. Besides positive proof from Scripture, Fathers and even science, there is plenty of negative proof to assist in drawing a conclusion. The Church condemned the pagan heliocentric model.  Seems in the meantime, the Church will war with false science to show the masses what She's been saying all along, and to more fully reveal the specifics of our origins first contained in God's Word.                      
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #23 on: February 10, 2018, 07:48:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: happenby on February 10, 2018, 06:04:16 PM
    Opining seems less accurate of a term because the Father's writings are always valuable. Even when they opine they are reasoning at least and teaching at best, (unless of course, it contradicts Church teaching). Truth from Scripture and Tradition is imparted to us by the Church. This is a centuries long process.  When searching for truth in any age, since only one thing is true, what is contrary must be false. These threads on flat earth reveal the Church's position in a myriad of ways.  But for those who cannot accept some, at the very least collectively, it shows a trajectory. Can the Church lead us in a direction and it not be 100% true?  Metaphysics and cosmology shape our road to salvation, because they affect our bearings and our view of God and the world. Besides positive proof from Scripture, Fathers and even science, there is plenty of negative proof to assist in drawing a conclusion. The Church condemned the pagan heliocentric model.  Seems in the meantime, the Church will war with false science to show the masses what She's been saying all along, and to more fully reveal the specifics of our origins first contained in God's Word.                      
    The trajectory goes from mixed views on the shape of the earth during the Patristic period to a consensus that the earth is a sphere from St. Bede forward.  There is no authoritative teaching or even a significant opinion that the earth is flat after that time.  The condemnation of Copernican heliocentrism is irrelevant since the Church supported the Ptolemaic model (with its spherical earth) against it.

    If one is looking for a direction in the Church's position, the direction does not support believing in flat earth.
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #24 on: February 10, 2018, 08:32:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on February 10, 2018, 07:48:29 PM
    The trajectory goes from mixed views on the shape of the earth during the Patristic period to a consensus that the earth is a sphere from St. Bede forward.  There is no authoritative teaching or even a significant opinion that the earth is flat after that time.  The condemnation of Copernican heliocentrism is irrelevant since the Church supported the Ptolemaic model (with its spherical earth) against it.

    If one is looking for a direction in the Church's position, the direction does not support believing in flat earth.
    Indeed, the one who has no Catholic support for their views on the shape of the earth is you Jayne.  In fact, you hold the model the pagans always held.  There is no authoritative teaching or even a significant opinion that earth is a globe, yet you hold it.  And no, the occult that foisted the fake globe on Christendom has no significant opinion because they lie.  
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #25 on: February 10, 2018, 08:43:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: happenby on February 10, 2018, 08:32:33 PM
    Indeed, the one who has no Catholic support for their views on the shape of the earth is you Jayne.  In fact, you hold the model the pagans always held.  There is no authoritative teaching or even a significant opinion that earth is a globe, yet you hold it.  And no, the occult that foisted the fake globe on Christendom has no significant opinion because they lie.  
    And you hold the model that Eric Dubay holds.  So what. 

    There is no authoritative teaching that the earth is flat, either.  The only authoritative teaching related to this says that we should not be looking in Scripture for an answer.

    You are not taking a Catholic position no matter what you tell yourself.  You are simply wrong.  It is good that you would like to support the Church against all the evil forces opposing her, but you are totally confused about how to do it.  Your flat earth beliefs are not helping the Church.  If anything, they harm us by making us look ridiculous.
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #26 on: February 10, 2018, 10:08:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on February 10, 2018, 08:43:55 PM
    And you hold the model that Eric Dubay holds.  So what.

    There is no authoritative teaching that the earth is flat, either.  The only authoritative teaching related to this says that we should not be looking in Scripture for an answer.

    You are not taking a Catholic position no matter what you tell yourself.  You are simply wrong.  It is good that you would like to support the Church against all the evil forces opposing her, but you are totally confused about how to do it.  Your flat earth beliefs are not helping the Church.  If anything, they harm us by making us look ridiculous.
    Appearances appearances.  You remind us constantly how you submit all your beliefs to human respect.  I don't care if I look ridiculous; I will always spread the truth as far as I am able for the glory of God. Thanks be to God!     
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #27 on: February 11, 2018, 07:16:02 AM »
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    • Quote from: happenby on February 10, 2018, 10:08:47 PM
    Appearances appearances.  You remind us constantly how you submit all your beliefs to human respect.  I don't care if I look ridiculous; I will always spread the truth as far as I am able for the glory of God. Thanks be to God!    
    Making yourself ridiculous in the cause of flat earth does not give glory to God.  

    We are fools in the eyes of many for believing in God or that He sent His Son born of a virgin.  We appear fools for believing in Resurrection and eternal judgment.  For things like that, we must be ready to seem like fools.  

    But how can you put flat earth into that category?  Is it a dogma taught by the magisterium?  Is it mentioned in a Creed?  It is an idea mentioned by a handful of the Fathers that disappeared after the Patristic period and was ignored for 1300 years. It did not persist throughout the history of the Church. It was revived in recent years by non-Catholics like Eric Dubay.

    Flat earth is not part of our Faith.  You are doing a horrible thing when you tell people it is.
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    Offline aryzia

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #28 on: February 11, 2018, 07:42:05 AM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on February 11, 2018, 07:16:02 AM
    Making yourself ridiculous in the cause of flat earth does not give glory to God.  

    We are fools in the eyes of many for believing in God or that He sent His Son born of a virgin.  We appear fools for believing in Resurrection and eternal judgment.  For things like that, we must be ready to seem like fools.  

    But how can you put flat earth into that category?  Is it a dogma taught by the magisterium?  Is it mentioned in a Creed?  It is an idea mentioned by a handful of the Fathers that disappeared after the Patristic period and was ignored for 1300 years. It did not persist throughout the history of the Church. It was revived in recent years by non-Catholics like Eric Dubay.

    Flat earth is not part of our Faith.  You are doing a horrible thing when you tell people it is.
    Steering people away from the truth is a terrible thing. You're making a serious mistake.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #29 on: February 11, 2018, 07:45:22 AM »
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    • Quote from: aryzia on February 11, 2018, 07:42:05 AM
    Steering people away from the truth is a terrible thing. You're making a serious mistake.
    If you think that flat earth is true, then demonstrate that with science. Misrepresenting Church teaching as supporting flat earth has nothing to do with truth.
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