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Author Topic: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation  (Read 2371 times)

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Offline happenby

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Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
« on: February 10, 2018, 10:41:35 AM »
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    • Back to the Providentissimus Deus discussion

    https://archive.org/details/ DenzingerSourcesOfCatholicDogm a


    This is the oldest version of the PD encyclical I have found.
    Translated by Roy J Deferrari
    The quote:

    "..the Spirit of God, who spoke through them, did not intend to teach these things (...) as being of no profit to salvation..."

    Now, look at the Vatican's modern-day version:

    "...Who spoke by them, did not intend to teach men these things (...) things in no way profitable unto salvation.

     The first version reads: God did not intend to teach as if the things of the natural world DON'T MATTER to salvation. But the second one, by repeating the word THINGS, makes it read as if God did not intend to teach the things of the natural world AT ALL because they DON'T MATTER to salvation.

    This subtle deceptive change of adding words (the version on the Vatican website) imparts a different meaning to the text. 
    All the more reason for people to take care to go to antiquity for reliable sources.
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #1 on: February 10, 2018, 11:54:28 AM »
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    • Quote from: An even Seven on February 10, 2018, 11:02:00 AM
    It doesn't matter because, as you keep forgetting, he is quoting St. Augustine's "De Genesi Ad Litteram". In St. Augustine's work, Bk. 2: Ch.9, it says "Hence, I must say briefly that in the matter of the shape of heaven the sacred writers knew the truth, but that the Spirit of God, who spoke through them, did not wish to teach men these facts that would be of no avail for their salvation."

    It definitely means these subjects (eg. shape of the Earth)are of no use for our salvation.
    Oh, it matters, because one quote comes from an encyclical, and the other is from St. Augustine.  The encyclical takes precedence.  Beyond that, the fact that translators messed with the encyclical means we need to take care with all versions until the verbiage can be determined as original. 
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #2 on: February 10, 2018, 12:00:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: An even Seven on February 10, 2018, 11:02:00 AM
    It doesn't matter because, as you keep forgetting, he is quoting St. Augustine's "De Genesi Ad Litteram". In St. Augustine's work, Bk. 2: Ch.9, it says "Hence, I must say briefly that in the matter of the shape of heaven the sacred writers knew the truth, but that the Spirit of God, who spoke through them, did not wish to teach men these facts that would be of no avail for their salvation."

    It definitely means these subjects (eg. shape of the Earth)are of no use for our salvation.
    Reference link please.
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #3 on: February 10, 2018, 12:22:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: An even Seven on February 10, 2018, 12:01:23 PM
    This is only a problem for people with an extreme "dogmatic" flat Earth bias. At best, your opinion can be construed as saying that Pope Leo intentionally misquoted St. Augustine. At worst, for you, Pope Leo definitely taught these issues are useless for us, just like the Fathers I've quoted. Either way you have no credibility.
    Pope Leo's XIII's encyclical does not misquote St. Augustine. Translators show obvious deviancy from maintaining truth. Pope Leo XIII taught that Scriptural cosmological teachings are helpful for salvation, as did Augustine.  And it stands to reason they do.  Saying that cosmology or metaphysics are not helpful to salvation is the most outrageous and anti-Catholic thing I've seen in a long time. Wisdom is the name for knowledge of first principles, as in Genesis.  As I've shown before regarding metaphysics, Fr. Ripperger explains:  "People's denial of the knowledge of God, or that you can come to a knowledge of God, is rooted in certain metaphysical problems in relationship to reality. The common teaching among philosophers is, "What your cosmology is, how you view the physical world, the world around you, will determine what your understanding of what actually God is.  Due to modern philosophers, People's understanding of the real world has degraded their ability to actually understand things about God by the natural light of reason."
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    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #4 on: February 10, 2018, 01:09:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: An even Seven on February 10, 2018, 11:02:00 AM
    It doesn't matter because, as you keep forgetting, he is quoting St. Augustine's "De Genesi Ad Litteram". In St. Augustine's work, Bk. 2: Ch.9, it says "Hence, I must say briefly that in the matter of the shape of heaven the sacred writers knew the truth, but that the Spirit of God, who spoke through them, did not wish to teach men these facts that would be of no avail for their salvation."

    It definitely means these subjects (eg. shape of the Earth)are of no use for our salvation.
    ANOTHER VERSION?
    Gee, how many times did the Church rewrite PD??
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #5 on: February 10, 2018, 01:21:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: An even Seven on February 10, 2018, 01:15:03 PM
    You lost me. What are you talking about?
    He is talking about the attempt to skew what PD was saying.  But saying it doesn't matter won't work because metaphysics and cosmology are very important to the Church and are reflected in a myriad of teachings.
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #6 on: February 10, 2018, 01:59:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: An even Seven on February 10, 2018, 01:55:53 PM
    There is no attempt to skew PD. PD is directly quoting St. Augustine. To anyone who doesn't have an extreme FE bias or a deliberate will to obfuscate the whole situation, it's clear that both St. Augustine and Pope Leo XIII, who is quoting him, taught that questions like "what shape is the Earth/Heaven?" are useless for us in regards to our Salvation.
    Um, too late.  Its proven by the addition of words in later translations that clearly show an attempt to change what PD is saying.  Also, it is proven that metaphysics and cosmology are necessary, which means Augustine and Leo XIII would not have said otherwise. 
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #7 on: February 10, 2018, 02:13:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: An even Seven on February 10, 2018, 12:25:35 PM
    De Genesi Ad Litteram-St. Augustine


    Also, when you get to it, scroll down a little in Chapter 10 and you'll see the words: "but I have no further time to go into these questions and discuss them, nor should they have time whom I wish to see instructed for their own salvation and for what is necessary and useful in the Church".
    Why would Pope Leo quote St. Augustine only to convey the exact opposite of what he's saying.
    A little further down Augustine says: They must certainly bear in mind that the term "firmament" does not compel us to imagine a stationary heaven: we may understand this name as given to indicate not that it is motionless but that it is solid and that it constitutes an impassable boundary between the waters above and the waters below."
    This, a flat earth teaching from Augustine destroys the globe, what with no boundary, no dome, and no water above.  Um.  Yea.
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #8 on: February 10, 2018, 02:14:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: An even Seven on February 10, 2018, 02:04:57 PM
    You are so desperate to be "right", you have resorted to posting explicitly false information. How sad for you.
    I do not care about being right.  I care about truth.  Please show what I said that was false. 
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #9 on: February 10, 2018, 02:37:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: happenby on February 10, 2018, 10:41:35 AM

    This subtle deceptive change of adding words (the version on the Vatican website) imparts a different meaning to the text.  
    All the more reason for people to take care to go to antiquity for reliable sources.
    I predicted a couple of days ago that somebody would attack PD on the grounds it appeared on the Vatican website.
    The best way to tell which translation is better would be to compare it against the Latin.  For those who do not know Latin, the next best way is to do what An Even Seven did and compare it to the passages it quotes from.
    Assuming that the older translation is better and taking advantage of an ambiguity in it to twist its meaning is not a good way to arrive at a correct understanding.
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    Offline aryzia

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #10 on: February 10, 2018, 02:39:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on February 10, 2018, 02:37:34 PM
    I predicted a couple of days ago that somebody would attack PD on the grounds it appeared on the Vatican website.
    The best way to tell which translation is better would be to compare it against the Latin.  For those who do not know Latin, the next best way is to do what An Even Seven did and compare it to the passages it quotes from.
    Assuming that the older translation is better and taking advantage of an ambiguity in it to twist its meaning is not a good way to arrive at a correct understanding.
    Actually, the Church teaches that when there are discrepancies, we must go to antiquity.
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #11 on: February 10, 2018, 02:43:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on February 10, 2018, 02:37:34 PM
    I predicted a couple of days ago that somebody would attack PD on the grounds it appeared on the Vatican website.
    The best way to tell which translation is better would be to compare it against the Latin.  For those who do not know Latin, the next best way is to do what An Even Seven did and compare it to the passages it quotes from.
    Assuming that the older translation is better and taking advantage of an ambiguity in it to twist its meaning is not a good way to arrive at a correct understanding.
    The older version is obviously the most accurate.  Your "prediction" is meaningless because the more accurate version reveals better what is being said.  I will always go there. 
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #12 on: February 10, 2018, 02:46:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: An even Seven on February 10, 2018, 02:30:05 PM
    How about the part I wanted you to read,that you completely ignored because it completely destroys your argument that no matter his personal belief about the shape etc... he said this:  "but I have no further time to go into these questions and discuss them, nor should they have time whom I wish to see instructed for their own salvation and for what is necessary and useful in the Church".


    As to your solid firmament comment I will add these quotes:
    Notice how St. Basil also says that to spend time on these matters would not be to the edification of the Church.
    I didn't address it because you're trying to say that all these things written here that St. Augustine is saying, he has no time for.  That's ridiculous.  He's only saying that he's said all he wants to say about it.  Metaphysics and cosmology are necessary for proper understanding of the world around us.  Augustine would never contend otherwise.  And neither would Pope Leo in his encyclical.  And guess what?  They don't.    
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #13 on: February 10, 2018, 02:46:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: aryzia on February 10, 2018, 02:39:30 PM
    Actually, the Church teaches that when there are discrepancies, we must go to antiquity.
    There is no such teaching concerning translations.  

    There is only one version of the encyclical Providentissimus Deus. It was written in Latin and it has never been revised. Encyclicals do not get revised. It has been translated (not revised) into various languages at various times.  One determines how good these translations are by comparing them to the original Latin.  There is no Church teaching nor any reason to assume that an older translation is better.  
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #14 on: February 10, 2018, 02:51:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on February 10, 2018, 02:46:56 PM
    There is no such teaching concerning translations.  

    There is only one version of the encyclical Providentissimus Deus. It was written in Latin and it has never been revised. Encyclicals do not get revised. It has been translated (not revised) into various languages at various times.  One determines how good these translations are by comparing them to the original Latin.  There is no Church teaching nor any reason to assume that an older translation is better.  
    The oldest translation trumps everything until we decipher the Latin.  In the meantime, the discrepancies of translation make a clear indication that people are fudging words in order to change the meaning.  Sure, we can go to the Latin. When you're done translating, get it verified by some reliable source and get back to us.  And whoever translates ought to show translation regarding the sentence so we can all see for ourselves. 
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