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Author Topic: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation  (Read 7025 times)

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Offline Meg

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Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2018, 11:29:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: happenby on February 10, 2018, 10:08:47 PM
    Appearances appearances.  You remind us constantly how you submit all your beliefs to human respect.  I don't care if I look ridiculous; I will always spread the truth as far as I am able for the glory of God. Thanks be to God!    

    Well said. To which I would like to add a few thoughts. That seems to be one of the main differences between those who believe in a flat earth, and those who are afraid that the flat earth issue will make tradition look bad. Appearances. As you say, it is the truth that matters. I, too, don't care if I look ridiculous.

    The Novus Ordo progressives in the Church think that Tradition is ridiculous. Pope Francis reminds us of this all the time. I'm not accusing the globe-earthers here of being progressive, but if they are embarrassed by the flat earth, well, then, I have to remind them that progressive Catholics are embarrassed by Tradition in general.

    Traditionalists will align themselves with controversial subjects. That's how it has been for awhile now. Like Bishop Williamson truthfully saying that there weren't six million Jews killed during WWll. This is a very unpopular stance, and our salvation isn't dependent upon it, but it is useful to know about. We also believe in unpopular views such as dressing modestly, married couples not using birth control, having large families, processions which honor Our Lord and Our Lady - there are quite a few things that go against the worldy view that most Progressives and non-Catholics hold today.

    Why should we be afraid of being embarrassed by going against a worldly and materialistic view of the supposed helio globe earth? Because it is quite worldly to believe in a heliocentric globe earth, IMO.

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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #31 on: February 11, 2018, 11:47:30 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on February 11, 2018, 11:29:43 AM
    Well said. To which I would like to add a few thoughts. That seems to be one of the main differences between those who believe in a flat earth, and those who are afraid that the flat earth issue will make tradition look bad. Appearances. As you say, it is the truth that matters. I, too, don't care if I look ridiculous.

    The Novus Ordo progressives in the Church think that Tradition is ridiculous. Pope Francis reminds us of this all the time. I'm not accusing the globe-earthers here of being progressive, but if they are embarrassed by the flat earth, well, then, I have to remind them that progressive Catholics are embarrassed by Tradition in general.

    Traditionalists will align themselves with controversial subjects. That's how it has been for awhile now. Like Bishop Williamson truthfully saying that there weren't six million Jews killed during WWll. This is a very unpopular stance, and our salvation isn't dependent upon it, but it is useful to know about. We also believe in unpopular views such as dressing modestly, married couples not using birth control, having large families, processions which honor Our Lord and Our Lady - there are quite a few things that go against the worldy view that most Progressives and non-Catholics hold today.

    Why should we be afraid of being embarrassed by going against a worldly and materialistic view of the supposed helio globe earth? Because it is quite worldly to believe in a heliocentric globe earth, IMO.
    You are putting modesty, Church teaching on sɛҳuąƖ morality, and traditional devotions on the same level as believing in flat earth.  This cheapens the beautiful and important things that are really part of being Catholic.  It makes it easier for non-Catholics to dismiss us as kooks.

    I am prepared to look ridiculous for something that is worth the cost, things that are genuine Catholic beliefs and practices.  But not for a neo-pagan revival of an idea that has been absent from the Church for well over a thousand years.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #32 on: February 11, 2018, 11:49:24 AM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on February 11, 2018, 11:47:30 AM
    You are putting modesty, Church teaching on sɛҳuąƖ morality, and traditional devotions on the same level as believing in flat earth.  This cheapens the beautiful and important things that are really part of being Catholic.  It makes it easier for non-Catholics to dismiss us as kooks.

    I am prepared to look ridiculous for something that is worth the cost, things that are genuine Catholic beliefs and practices.  But not for a neo-pagan revival of an idea that has been absent from the Church for well over a thousand years.

    They already dismiss us a kooks, Jayne. Or hadn't you noticed? 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #33 on: February 11, 2018, 01:01:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on February 11, 2018, 11:47:30 AM
    I am prepared to look ridiculous for something that is worth the cost, things that are genuine Catholic beliefs and practices.  But not for a neo-pagan revival of an idea that has been absent from the Church for well over a thousand years.
    But I thought you said the Church has ALWAYS believed earth is a globe?
    What happened, Mr. Garrison? Why did you revise your estimate down by a thousand years?
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    Offline aryzia

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #34 on: February 11, 2018, 01:16:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on February 11, 2018, 07:45:22 AM
    If you think that flat earth is true, then demonstrate that with science. Misrepresenting Church teaching as supporting flat earth has nothing to do
    Science proves earth is flat. Being the case, it's pretty short sighted to think God doesn't know it infallibly, or share the truth with us as scripture attests.  She switches her position. She did say 2000 years in another post.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #35 on: February 11, 2018, 01:54:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: aryzia on February 11, 2018, 01:16:44 PM
      She switches her position. She did say 2000 years in another post.
    I have never said that the Church always believed in a spherical earth.  I have consistently taken the position that there were mixed opinions on the shape of the earth at first, eventually becoming a consensus on spherical. Different authors give different dates for reaching consensus and I have referred to more than one of them, but I have never denied that some of the Fathers believed in flat earth. 

    I challenge anyone who wants to claim that I have changed my position to provide links and quotes that prove it.
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    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #36 on: February 11, 2018, 02:55:40 PM »
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    • You have constantly stated:

    1. No educated people ever believed earth is flat.

    2. No Fathers of the Church thought earth was flat. 

    3. No Church teachings (including the Bible) say earth is flat.
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    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #37 on: February 11, 2018, 03:04:31 PM »
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    • Furthermore,  you have been given quotes from books hundreds of years old that reference your claimed "non-existent" Church flat earth belief and you have sanctimoniously dismissed them all as "lies" "inaccurate" " misunderstood" or "misinterpreted."
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #38 on: February 11, 2018, 03:09:26 PM »
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    • Smedley is a proven liar and nobody should believe anything he claims about what I have said unless he provides exact quotes with links.  
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    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #39 on: February 11, 2018, 04:09:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on February 11, 2018, 03:09:26 PM
    Smedley is a proven liar and nobody should believe anything he claims about what I have said unless he provides exact quotes with links.  
    Mr. Garrison is a proven liar who has twisted Church teaching into something it's not.
    LIE #1: Bible does not speak of God's Creation in literal terms (no six days of Creation, sun does not move & earth does,  etc.)
    LIE #2: God did not intend to teach us about His Creation. 
    LIE #3: The Church does not intend to teach us about His Creation because it is not profitable to our salvation.
    LIE#4: The Bible is incorrect about Creation and science's proper job is to correct God's Infallible Word.

    These lies damage people's faith because she has set herself up as a god to proclaim none of this is important,  and any discussion of it is a waste of time.
    Which makes one wonder why the Fathers spilled so much ink on it if it was such a nothingburger.
    Pliny the Elder was more honest than Jaynek when he acknowledged that it is "the great debate."
    Indeed a debate that will not go away no matter how much Jaynek wishes or how many lies she tells.
    And all this from a condescending woman who herself believes in evolution,  heliocentrism, and a 'billyuns years old' universe.
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    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #40 on: February 11, 2018, 07:56:45 PM »
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    • Wanna hear something funny?  Even Wikipedia diasagrees with Jaynek about PD.

    ""The Galileo Affair pitted the geocentric model aagainst the claims of Galileo. [..] two Popes addressed whether phenomenological language would compel one to admit an error in Scripture.  Both taught it would NOT.  Pope Leo wrote in PD #18: [...]

    And Pope Pius XII repeated his predecessor's teaching in Divino Afflante Spiritu #3."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geocentric_model
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    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #41 on: February 11, 2018, 08:00:45 PM »
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    • Read the section titled "Historical positions of the Roman Catholic hierarchy. " at the link.
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    Offline AlligatorDicax

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    Version?/Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus [...] clearer translation
    « Reply #42 on: February 11, 2018, 11:52:36 PM »
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    • Arrrgh!  Only 1 page, and I just can't take it any more!

    Quote from: happenby on February 10, 2018, 10:41:35 AM
    https://archive.org/details/DenzingerSourcesOfCatholicDogma

    This is the oldest version of the [Providentissimus Deus] encyclical I have found.

    Quite a novel idea--one might even call it modernist--that an encyclical that was promulgated 11/4 centuries ago (1893) by Pope Leo XIII could legitimately exist in multiple versions!

    Quote from: happenby on February 10, 2018, 10:41:35 AM
    Translated by Roy J Deferrari   The quote:

    "..the Spirit of God, who spoke through them, did not intend to teach these things (...) as being of no profit to salvation..."

    Now, look at the Vatican's modern-day version:

    "...Who spoke by them, did not intend to teach men these things (...) things in no way profitable unto salvation.

    So while arguing the merits of a single sentence in each of 2 translations, you actually displayed the chutzpah to remove words (i.e., with ellipsis notation, altho'  I added the red color herein) from the middle of the compound phrases that were so important that you presented them in C.I.'s extra-bold type!?

    Quote from: happenby on February 10, 2018, 10:41:35 AM

    This subtle deceptive change of adding words (the version on the Vatican website) imparts a different meaning to the text. 

    Why should a reader trust your comparison, when you've overtly removed words that might be crucial to the meaning of each sentence?

    Quote from: happenby on February 10, 2018, 11:54:28 AM

    Oh, it matters, because one quote comes from an encyclical, and the other is from St. Augustine.  The encyclical takes precedence. 

    Your assertion about "precedence" does not officially apply when both docuмents are in a vernacular language, e.g., English.

    Quote from: happenby on February 10, 2018, 10:41:35 AM

    All the more reason for people to take care to go to antiquity for reliable sources.

    Antiquity!?  Whoa!  You have access to manuscripts in the Vatican Archives!?  The movable-type printing press wasn't invented until ca. 1450, and was not widely in use until after ca. 1500.  How much modern English do you expect to find back in whatever "antiquity" it is that you recommend?
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Oldest version of Providentissimus Deus found with clearer translation
    « Reply #43 on: May 29, 2018, 12:54:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on February 11, 2018, 11:49:24 AM

    Quote from: Jaynek on February 11, 2018, 09:47:30 AM
    Quote
    You are putting modesty, Church teaching on sɛҳuąƖ morality, and traditional devotions on the same level as believing in flat earth.  This cheapens the beautiful and important things that are really part of being Catholic.  It makes it easier for non-Catholics to dismiss us as kooks.

    I am prepared to look ridiculous for something that is worth the cost, things that are genuine Catholic beliefs and practices.  But not for a neo-pagan revival of an idea that has been absent from the Church for well over a thousand years.

    They already dismiss us a kooks, Jayne. Or hadn't you noticed?
    .
    Meg says Trads are all ready dismissed as kooks, so why not prove them right? 
    .
    Tell non-Catholics that "flat" earth is traditional Catholicism (IOW tell a lie) and confirm their judgment that Trads are kooks!
    .
    Brilliant .............. NOT!

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