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Author Topic: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis  (Read 56711 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
« Reply #330 on: July 18, 2023, 01:16:14 PM »
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  • :jester:  Jaynek has dodged my question 3x.  :jester:
    The first time I saw the question I thought it was rhetorical, since the answer is so obvious.  When I saw you had asked again I realized you actually wanted an answer for some reason and was going to write one. However, as I scrolled down, I saw you had asked a third time and was too annoyed  to respond. The above post does nothing to convince me that you are genuinely interested in thoughtful discussion.  I am not interested in whatever game you are playing.

    Offline cassini

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #331 on: July 18, 2023, 02:14:20 PM »
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  • The Church is the interpreter of Scripture and the authority on what has been taught by the Fathers.  We do not get to decide that the Church has taught something wrong because it does not match our ideas on these things.  We cannot say that a body that normally lacks the authority to make infallible statements, somehow made one because we agree with its reasoning.

    Pius VII has the authority to say that Paul V was wrong. I do not have the authority to say that Pius VII was wrong.  Therefore I go with the assumption that he was correct.

    I don't know why there were popes disagreeing on this.  I have already explained my best guess. Even if that guess is incorrect, I am not going to decide that Pius VII was wrong.  That just isn't an option that I am not prepared to consider, no matter what quotes you present.  You are one of the posters whom I respect the most here, but even you cannot persuade me to resolve the apparent contradiction the way that you have.

    OK Jaynek, time to out the truth. Thankfully, the record of what happened in 1820 survived and was released by the Holy Office for all to read when all these convinced Galileans they thought it was safe to do so..

    The 1616 decree was declared to be irreversible by Pope Urban VIII in 1633, and by a Fr Olivieri head of the Holy Office in 1820. In fact the U-turn had begun in 1741.

    ‘In 1741, in the face of optical proof of the fact that the Earth revolves round the sun, Pope Benedict XIV had the Holy Office grant an imprimatur to the first edition of the Complete Works of Galileo.’--- Church Commission on Galileo; 1992.

    By 1820, most of the Catholic hierarchy believed heliocentrism was proven and consequently the geocentrism of 1616 was falsified. So:

    ‘In 1820, Canon Settele lodged an appeal [to obtain an imprimatur for his new heliocentric book] with Pope Pius VII (1800-1823)… In 1822 a favourable decision was given [by way of two decrees forbidding the censorship of ‘modern’ heliocentric books]. This papal decision was to receive its practical application in 1835 [under Pope Gregory XVI (1831-1846)] with the publication of a new and updated index [emptied of all heliocentric books].’- Pope John Paul II’s Galileo Commission, 1992.

    Here is a quote from a Lutheran seminary 53 years after the above concession:
    ‘Which [universe] is right? It would be very simple to me which is right, if it were only a question for human import. But the wise and truthful God has expressed Himself on this matter in the Bible. The entire Holy Scriptures settles the question that the Earth is the principal body of the universe, and it stands fixed, and that the Sun and the Moon only serve to light it.’-- Lutheran Teachers’ Seminary, St Louis, Astronomische Uterredung, 1873.

    So, how did the Catholic Copernican churchmen have their infallible cake and eat it? Well the answer came in the written opinion of Fr Benedetto Olivieri in November of 1820. This 10,000+ word report gave all his arguments for granting an imprimatur to Settele’s book that presented heliocentrism as a fact, while at the same time trying to refute the counter geocentric arguments written up by Fr Filippo Anfossi and republished in M. A. Finocchiaro’s book Retrying Galileo.

    I will post the answer on the next page.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #332 on: July 18, 2023, 02:21:27 PM »
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  • Dodge #4...

    Offline cassini

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #333 on: July 18, 2023, 02:32:43 PM »
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  • Olivieri: ‘From the fact that the hypothesis was allowed, I have demonstrated (I hope incontrovertibly): that the system had not been condemned as regards astronomical motions of terrestrial rotation and translation, that is, in its foundation and per se; but it had been condemned as regards the terrestrial difficulties besetting the doctrine of its defenders. Thus now that the system is taught without such difficulties, it is no longer subject to the condemnation.’--- Retrying Galileo.

    So finally, we come to what can only be considered the biggest fraud in history conjured up out of desperation to ‘save the Catholic Church.’  no ‘system’ was condemned as formal heresy, only to assert the (Biblical) sun as fixed. Olivieri’s heretical ‘terrestrial difficulties’ is another invention. Here he states the condemnation was an orbiting Earth plagued with terrestrial difficulties, a belief held by Aristotle, Ptolemy and others when dismissing the old Pythagorean solar-system. Olivieri went on to say the theologians of 1616 were obsessed with the idea that if the Earth flew through space ‘all atmospheric phenomena would be completely disturbed and intermingled.’

    Anfossi wrote: ‘The Holy See [in 1616] took no account of this [terrestrial difficulties]. They considered the matter as theologians and declared it “formally heretical or at least erroneous in the faith” because it was contrary to the Divine Scriptures; and the Holy See condemned it.’ If in the judgment of the Holy See it was contrary to the Divine Scriptures in 1616, so it is still in 1820.’ 

    Olivieri: ‘Let us try to free the most Reverend Father from such a misconception… Tell me, is it not true that the doctrine declared “heretical or at least erroneous in the Faith” was also “absurd and philosophically false?”…So tell me how you think they arrived at such a “contrariety to the Sacred Scriptures?” On what foundation did they establish it? What were they basing it on? Why did the decree say “philosophically false and absurd” before “altogether contrary to Divine Scripture?”’--- Ibid.


    Olivieri: ‘Settele’s corresponding proposition “as the Earth moves around the sun” and others like it can no longer be called “philosophically false and absurd” by anyone because it is most certain that philosophically and by natural reason they contain no “falsehoods or absurdities.” Therefore, the doctrine of modern astronomers is not the one judged “heretical or erroneous in the faith”… Please reflect that if philosophical absurdity is attributed to the words of Divine Scripture, it becomes an interpretation that ecclesiastical authority can very well define as “contrary to Sacred Scripture” and this is precisely our case. Such was the case of the devastating motion from which Copernicus and Galileo had been unable to free the motions of axial rotation and orbital revolution which they ascribed to the Earth; such devastating motion was certainly contrary to Sacred Scripture.’--- Ibid.

    Is that a fact now? Had Olivieri read Copernicus’s 1543 book he would have found he gave a very good reason why his heliocentrism - the very same fixed-sun/moving-Earth motions proposed by Olivieri, the one condemned as heresy in 1616 and confirmed in 1633 - had no such devastating motion.
     
    ‘But if someone opines that the Earth revolves, he will also say that the movement is natural and not violent. Now things which are according to nature produce effects contrary to those that are violent… and are kept in their best organization. Therefore, Ptolemy had no reason to fear that the Earth and all things on the Earth would be scattered [due to its motion around the sun].’--- De revolutionibus, Book 1.     

    The Status of the 1616 Ruling and Decree
     
    But now it is time to tie down another loose end. Having challenged Anfossi on every point concerning the authority and content of the 1616-1633 rulings, he then makes a startling admission, but ties it in with his non-violent nonsense.
     
    Olivieri: ‘In his “motives” the Most Rev. Anfossi puts forth “the unrevisability of pontifical decrees.” But we have already proved that this is saved: the doctrine in question at the time was infected with a devastating motion, which is certainly contrary to the Sacred Scriptures, as it was declared.’--- Retrying Galileo, p.213
     
    Olivieri, Commissary General of the Inquisition, finally admits that the 1616 decree against a fixed sun and moving Earth remains an ‘irreversible pontifical decree.’ He confirms that Pope Paul V’s decree was without argument papal and ‘unrevisable.’

    So, by inventing a terrestrial difficult 1616 decree as the infallible one, it was untouchable. But according to 'modern astronomers' heliocentrism is proven not filled with terrestrial difficulties so we can now let Catholics believe in a now harmful heliocentrism while we still have the infallible terrestrial disturbing heliocentrism decree of 1616.

    So, they found their way to have their infallible 1616 decree and a way to bypass it and have their heliocentrism.

    Offline Always

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #334 on: July 18, 2023, 03:31:44 PM »
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  • So, they found their way to have their infallible 1616 decree and a way to bypass it and have their heliocentrism.

    So incredibly devious and with such catastrophically evil effects that one would appear quite justified in believing that the "bypass operation" originated in the depths of hell.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #335 on: July 18, 2023, 05:32:51 PM »
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  • Jaynek has dodged my question 3x:


    Quote
    The first time I saw the question I thought it was rhetorical, since the answer is so obvious.  When I saw you had asked again I realized you actually wanted an answer for some reason and was going to write one. However, as I scrolled down, I saw you had asked a third time and was too annoyed  to respond. The above post does nothing to convince me that you are genuinely interested in thoughtful discussion.  I am not interested in whatever game you are playing.


    We all know why you won't answer...your agenda and lack of integrity is on record for all to see...

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #336 on: July 19, 2023, 01:25:35 AM »
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  • Olivieri: ‘From the fact that the hypothesis was allowed, I have demonstrated (I hope incontrovertibly): that the system had not been condemned as regards astronomical motions of terrestrial rotation and translation, that is, in its foundation and per se; but it had been condemned as regards the terrestrial difficulties besetting the doctrine of its defenders. Thus now that the system is taught without such difficulties, it is no longer subject to the condemnation.’--- Retrying Galileo.

    So finally, we come to what can only be considered the biggest fraud in history conjured up out of desperation to ‘save the Catholic Church.’  no ‘system’ was condemned as formal heresy, only to assert the (Biblical) sun as fixed. Olivieri’s heretical ‘terrestrial difficulties’ is another invention. Here he states the condemnation was an orbiting Earth plagued with terrestrial difficulties, a belief held by Aristotle, Ptolemy and others when dismissing the old Pythagorean solar-system. Olivieri went on to say the theologians of 1616 were obsessed with the idea that if the Earth flew through space ‘all atmospheric phenomena would be completely disturbed and intermingled.’

    Anfossi wrote: ‘The Holy See [in 1616] took no account of this [terrestrial difficulties]. They considered the matter as theologians and declared it “formally heretical or at least erroneous in the faith” because it was contrary to the Divine Scriptures; and the Holy See condemned it.’ If in the judgment of the Holy See it was contrary to the Divine Scriptures in 1616, so it is still in 1820.’ 

    Olivieri: ‘Let us try to free the most Reverend Father from such a misconception… Tell me, is it not true that the doctrine declared “heretical or at least erroneous in the Faith” was also “absurd and philosophically false?”…So tell me how you think they arrived at such a “contrariety to the Sacred Scriptures?” On what foundation did they establish it? What were they basing it on? Why did the decree say “philosophically false and absurd” before “altogether contrary to Divine Scripture?”’--- Ibid.


    Olivieri: ‘Settele’s corresponding proposition “as the Earth moves around the sun” and others like it can no longer be called “philosophically false and absurd” by anyone because it is most certain that philosophically and by natural reason they contain no “falsehoods or absurdities.” Therefore, the doctrine of modern astronomers is not the one judged “heretical or erroneous in the faith”… Please reflect that if philosophical absurdity is attributed to the words of Divine Scripture, it becomes an interpretation that ecclesiastical authority can very well define as “contrary to Sacred Scripture” and this is precisely our case. Such was the case of the devastating motion from which Copernicus and Galileo had been unable to free the motions of axial rotation and orbital revolution which they ascribed to the Earth; such devastating motion was certainly contrary to Sacred Scripture.’--- Ibid.

    Is that a fact now? Had Olivieri read Copernicus’s 1543 book he would have found he gave a very good reason why his heliocentrism - the very same fixed-sun/moving-Earth motions proposed by Olivieri, the one condemned as heresy in 1616 and confirmed in 1633 - had no such devastating motion.
     
    ‘But if someone opines that the Earth revolves, he will also say that the movement is natural and not violent. Now things which are according to nature produce effects contrary to those that are violent… and are kept in their best organization. Therefore, Ptolemy had no reason to fear that the Earth and all things on the Earth would be scattered [due to its motion around the sun].’--- De revolutionibus, Book 1.     

    The Status of the 1616 Ruling and Decree
     
    But now it is time to tie down another loose end. Having challenged Anfossi on every point concerning the authority and content of the 1616-1633 rulings, he then makes a startling admission, but ties it in with his non-violent nonsense.
     
    Olivieri: ‘In his “motives” the Most Rev. Anfossi puts forth “the unrevisability of pontifical decrees.” But we have already proved that this is saved: the doctrine in question at the time was infected with a devastating motion, which is certainly contrary to the Sacred Scriptures, as it was declared.’--- Retrying Galileo, p.213
     
    Olivieri, Commissary General of the Inquisition, finally admits that the 1616 decree against a fixed sun and moving Earth remains an ‘irreversible pontifical decree.’ He confirms that Pope Paul V’s decree was without argument papal and ‘unrevisable.’

    So, by inventing a terrestrial difficult 1616 decree as the infallible one, it was untouchable. But according to 'modern astronomers' heliocentrism is proven not filled with terrestrial difficulties so we can now let Catholics believe in a now harmful heliocentrism while we still have the infallible terrestrial disturbing heliocentrism decree of 1616.

    So, they found their way to have their infallible 1616 decree and a way to bypass it and have their heliocentrism.
    Pharisism. They threw away the Spirit of the law for the letter...