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Author Topic: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis  (Read 55817 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
« Reply #315 on: July 17, 2023, 04:12:06 PM »
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  • The above passage is the one they have all used to OK the 1820 U-turn. It never mentions Galileo, or sunrise or sunset, but was put in to cover the 1820 U-turn by his predecessor Pope Pius VII. But having confirmed earlier in his encyclical that the Church teaching did not allow the moving-sun of all the Fathers to be changed, the letter cannot be used as a licence to change the 1616 decree. But they did use it and still do.
    I think we agree on these facts: There was a 1616 docuмent which condemned heliocentrism and books promoting it were put on the Index.  There was an 1820 docuмent which allowed heliocentrism and books promoting it were taken off the Index. 

    It is hard to understand how this could happen, although neither docuмent was infallible.  Many people explain it by saying that Pope Paul V made a mistake that Pope Pius VII corrected.

    I see that you explain this as Pope Pius VII making a scandalous mistake, while Pope Paul V was the one who was right.  I prefer an explanation in which both popes were correct and the difference was a response to changes in scientific knowledge, as St. Robert Bellarmine suggested was possible. 

    As you have kindly pointed out, there are many sources that agree with how I understand Providentissimus Deus as supporting my explanation.  Obviously, I disagree with how you have understood it.  It does not explicitly state that Church teaching does not allow a moving sun and I don't think it implies it as you claim. While I do think that geocentrism is a reasonable position, I think that currently Catholics are free to disagree with it.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #316 on: July 17, 2023, 04:39:00 PM »
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  • I see that you explain this as Pope Pius VII making a scandalous mistake, while Pope Paul V was the one who was right.  I prefer an explanation in which both popes were correct and the difference was a response to changes in scientific knowledge, as St. Robert Bellarmine suggested was possible.

    Despite what St. Robert wrote while investigating the issue, the Holy Office determined that heliocentrism was solidly contrary to the Sacred Scriptures, so the reasons were not primarily scientific but theological.

    So heliocentrism was contrary to the Sacred Scriptures in 1616, but then was no longer contrary to the Sacred Scriptures in 1820?  Either it is or it isn't, and that has nothing to do with the "state of science".  Science has never proven heliocentrism.  Quite to the contrary, even modern science has abandoned it, since, according to them, the solar system revolves around the barycenter of the solar system, not the sun, a barycenter that sometimes actually is outside the physical boundaries of the sun.  Even if you believe in Newton's nonsense, the center of the universe or of all creation would be the barycenter of the entire universe, and I defy anyone to prove that the earth is not actually at that very barycenter and that God does not perfectly balance the rest of the universe around it so that it never moves.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #317 on: July 17, 2023, 05:03:59 PM »
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  • So heliocentrism was contrary to the Sacred Scriptures in 1616, but then was no longer contrary to the Sacred Scriptures in 1820?  Either it is or it isn't, and that has nothing to do with the "state of science". 
    St. Robert said that the interpretation of Scripture could change if there were a "true demonstration":

    . I say that if there were a true demonstration that the sun is at the center of the world and the earth in the third heaven, and that the sun does not circle the earth but the earth circles the sun, then one would have to proceed with great care in explaining the Scriptures that appear contrary; and say rather that we do not understand them than that what is demonstrated is false.

    The Church did change her position on heliocentrism in 1820 and this seems to me like a reasonable way to explain it.  Or perhaps we should just date sedevacantism back to 1800.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #318 on: July 17, 2023, 05:13:57 PM »
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  • St. Robert said that the interpretation of Scripture could change if there were a "true demonstration":

    Irrelevant.  He wrote this while investigating the matter, and the Holy Office ruling unequivocally stated that heliocentrism is contrary to Sacred Scriptures.  It was not rejected for scientific reasons, but for theological ones.  Something that's contrary to Sacred Scripture cannot suddenly become not contrary to Sacred Scripture ... science itself has change in such a way that it's no longer contrary to the sense of Sacred Scripture.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #319 on: July 17, 2023, 05:16:05 PM »
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  • The Church did change her position on heliocentrism in 1820 and this seems to me like a reasonable way to explain it.  Or perhaps we should just date sedevacantism back to 1800.

    Nonsense.  You yourself admitted that neither ruling was infallible and therefore irreformable.  This doesn't mean that one of them wasn't wrong, nor does it lead to sedevacantism.  Certainly the 1616 decision was closer to meeting the notes of infallibility, whereas the 1800 one clearly did not, as it did not teach anything that must be held by the faithful (the main note of infallibility).


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #320 on: July 17, 2023, 05:24:06 PM »
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  • Irrelevant.  He wrote this while investigating the matter, and the Holy Office ruling unequivocally stated that heliocentrism is contrary to Sacred Scriptures. 

    According to Ott rulings of the Holy Office are not infallible:

    With regard to the doctrinal teaching of the Church it must be well noted that not all the assertions of the Teaching Authority of the Church on questions of Faith and morals are infallible and consequently irrevocable. Only those are infallible which emanate from General Councils representing the whole episcopate, and the Papal Decisions Ex Cathedra (cf. D 1839). The ordinary and usual form of the Papal teaching activity is not infallible. Further, the decisions of the Roman Congregations (Holy Office, Bible Commission) are not infallible. 

    Nonsense.  You yourself admitted that neither ruling was infallible and therefore irreformable.  This doesn't mean that one of them wasn't wrong, nor does it lead to sedevacantism.  Certainly the 1616 decision was closer to meeting the notes of infallibility, whereas the 1800 one clearly did not, as it did not teach anything that must be held by the faithful (the main note of infallibility).

    If we have to choose only one as right, then it makes more sense to me that the later decision revoked the earlier one.  A pope can change a non-infallible teaching from the past but a pope cannot bind future popes on non-infallible matters.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #321 on: July 17, 2023, 09:03:31 PM »
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  • Jaynk, so you’d have to agree that if modern science could prove flat earth, then +Bellarmine would agree as well.

    Offline cassini

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #322 on: July 18, 2023, 06:22:35 AM »
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  • According to Ott rulings of the Holy Office are not infallible:

    With regard to the doctrinal teaching of the Church it must be well noted that not all the assertions of the Teaching Authority of the Church on questions of Faith and morals are infallible and consequently irrevocable. Only those are infallible which emanate from General Councils representing the whole episcopate, and the Papal Decisions Ex Cathedra (cf. D 1839). The ordinary and usual form of the Papal teaching activity is not infallible. Further, the decisions of the Roman Congregations (Holy Office, Bible Commission) are not infallible.

    If we have to choose only one as right, then it makes more sense to me that the later decision revoked the earlier one.  A pope can change a non-infallible teaching from the past but a pope cannot bind future popes on non-infallible matters.

    All these non-infallible arguments were conjured up by apologists to try to save the Church AFTER 1820 when they were conned into believing the Earth was proven to move in a sun-fixed solar system and made their U-turn. 

    ‘I found it laid down by such distinguished representatives of the Ultramontane school as Cardenas, La Croix, Zaccaria, and Bouix, that Congregational decrees, confirmed by the Pope and published by his express order, emanate from the Pontiff in his capacity of Head of the Church, and are ex cathedrâ in such sense as to make it infallibly certain that doctrines so propounded as true, are true.’--- Fr W. Roberts.

    THE COUNCIL OF TRENT STATES:

    ‘Furthermore, in order to curb imprudent clever persons, the synod decrees that no one who relies on his own judgment in matters of faith and morals, which pertain to the building up of Christian doctrine, and that no one who distorts the Sacred Scripture according to his own opinions, shall dare to interpret the said Sacred Scripture contrary to that sense which is held by holy Mother Church, whose duty it is to judge regarding the true sense and interpretation of the Holy Scriptures, or even contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers, even though interpretations of this kind were never intended to be brought to light. Let those who shall oppose this be reported by their ordinaries and be punished with the penalties prescribed by law.’--- (Denzinger – 783/786)

    On February 24th 1616 the assessment of the Holy Office was declared:

    (1) “That the sun is in the centre of the world and altogether immovable by local movement,” was unanimously declared to be “foolish, philosophically absurd, and formally heretical [denial of a revelation by God] inasmuch as it expressly contradicts the declarations of Holy Scripture in many passages, according to the proper meaning of the language used, and the sense in which they have been expounded and understood by the Fathers and theologians.”

    Based on the teaching of Trent this particular decision of the Holy Office on the matter of a moving sun around the Earth is infallible.


    Offline cassini

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #323 on: July 18, 2023, 07:53:11 AM »
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  • St. Robert said that the interpretation of Scripture could change if there were a "true demonstration":

    . I say that if there were a true demonstration that the sun is at the center of the world and the earth in the third heaven, and that the sun does not circle the earth but the earth circles the sun, then one would have to proceed with great care in explaining the Scriptures that appear contrary; and say rather that we do not understand them than that what is demonstrated is false.

    The Church did change her position on heliocentrism in 1820 and this seems to me like a reasonable way to explain it.  Or perhaps we should just date sedevacantism back to 1800.

    I say if there were proof that Jesus Christ did not change water into wine then one would have to doubt the wording of Scripture.

    This is the logic that they make of Bellarmine's 1615 letter by omitting the rest of what Bellarmine said. It would mean this letter could eliminate a papal decree defined and declared one year later. It suggests that Bellarmine considered the 1616 decree was provisional and not a proper ruling on formal heresy:

    (1) “That the sun is in the centre of the world and altogether immovable by local movement,” was unanimously declared to be “foolish, philosophically absurd, and formally heretical [denial of a revelation by God] inasmuch as it expressly contradicts the declarations of Holy Scripture in many passages, according to the proper meaning of the language used, and the sense in which they have been expounded and understood by the Fathers and theologians.”

    if it is never proven that is.

    If this is how you believe the Church rules on formal heresies then we can believe anything under the same 'if there were proof of the opposite then the Church will reverse its teaching.' Wow, not even the Protestants taught of that one. 

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #324 on: July 18, 2023, 08:29:08 AM »
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  • I say if there were proof that Jesus Christ did not change water into wine then one would have to doubt the wording of Scripture.

    This is the logic that they make of Bellarmine's 1615 letter by omitting the rest of what Bellarmine said. It would mean this letter could eliminate a papal decree defined and declared one year later. It suggests that Bellarmine considered the 1616 decree was provisional and not a proper ruling on formal heresy:

    (1) “That the sun is in the centre of the world and altogether immovable by local movement,” was unanimously declared to be “foolish, philosophically absurd, and formally heretical [denial of a revelation by God] inasmuch as it expressly contradicts the declarations of Holy Scripture in many passages, according to the proper meaning of the language used, and the sense in which they have been expounded and understood by the Fathers and theologians.”

    if it is never proven that is.

    If this is how you believe the Church rules on formal heresies then we can believe anything under the same 'if there were proof of the opposite then the Church will reverse its teaching.' Wow, not even the Protestants taught of that one.
    As I learn more about geocentrism, I have realised that usury and geocentrism have similar issues with the church. Except usury is a divine law and much more clear than geocentrism, even though both have clear teaching from the fathers.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #325 on: July 18, 2023, 09:32:45 AM »
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  • Quote
    St. Robert said that the interpretation of Scripture could change if there were a "true demonstration":

    Jaynk, so you’d have to agree that if modern science could prove flat earth, then +Bellarmine would agree as well.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #326 on: July 18, 2023, 11:14:43 AM »
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  • Based on the teaching of Trent this particular decision of the Holy Office on the matter of a moving sun around the Earth is infallible.

    The Church is the interpreter of Scripture and the authority on what has been taught by the Fathers.  We do not get to decide that the Church has taught something wrong because it does not match our ideas on these things.  We cannot say that a body that normally lacks the authority to make infallible statements, somehow made one because we agree with its reasoning.

    Pius VII has the authority to say that Paul V was wrong. I do not have the authority to say that Pius VII was wrong.  Therefore I go with the assumption that he was correct. 

    I don't know why there were popes disagreeing on this.  I have already explained my best guess. Even if that guess is incorrect, I am not going to decide that Pius VII was wrong.  That just isn't an option that I am not prepared to consider, no matter what quotes you present.  You are one of the posters whom I respect the most here, but even you cannot persuade me to resolve the apparent contradiction the way that you have.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #327 on: July 18, 2023, 11:33:23 AM »
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  • I say if there were proof that Jesus Christ did not change water into wine then one would have to doubt the wording of Scripture.

    You make a false analogy.

    There is a big difference between an account of a miracle and a description of the natural world.  It is the definition of miracles that they do not follow the rules of the natural world.  It is inherent in the miracle that it will not match our observations of nature and it is impossible to disprove a miracle by appealing to these observations.  There has never been a reason to doubt what Scripture says about the supernatural and there never can be.

    Scripture's decriptions of the natural world fall into a special category.  Going back at least as far as St. Augustine, it has been a Catholic principle that we should try to reconcile these desciptions in Scripture with what we can observe and deduce in the world around us.

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #328 on: July 18, 2023, 12:18:22 PM »
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  • Scripture's decriptions of the natural world fall into a special category.  Going back at least as far as St. Augustine, it has been a Catholic principle that we should try to reconcile these desciptions in Scripture with what we can observe and deduce in the world around us.
    You can "try reconciling" truth and truth, I'll recognize that the truths of science and scripture are one and the same.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #329 on: July 18, 2023, 12:55:57 PM »
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  • :jester:  Jaynek has dodged my question 3x.  :jester: