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Author Topic: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis  (Read 78387 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
« Reply #270 on: July 13, 2023, 03:50:13 PM »

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Only the Church has the authority to say what is being indirectly implied by Scripture and she has made no such statements in regard to flat earth.
This is true.  But it's also true that the many indirect implications regarding flat earth do exist.  And until the Church rules such DON'T apply to flat earth, we are free to argue they do.


You're very one-sided; this much is clear.

Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
« Reply #271 on: July 13, 2023, 03:51:50 PM »
I do not consider it a simple yes or no question.  I wanted to specify exactly how and why I disagree with it.  Did you read the link to Humani Generis that I included?  That should have made it clear that my answer was not an evasion.

But I will retract my claim that you were being dishonest.  Somehow, you seem to have genuinely thought that I was arguing for evolution.

It is not a misrepresentation to state that St. Augustine could neither reject nor support a theory that did not exist.  While he may have made comments that are not compatible with evolution, they were not made as an argument against evolution.
Thank you, sorry for judging rashly.

I've read Humani Generis but haven't clicked the link.

What you've said with regard to Augustine sounds reasonable enough but we both know that when I asked does does Augustine support evolution I meant are his statements compatible or suggestive of evolution not that he invented it before Darwin. My motivation was to see how much Catholic sense you have and on the basis of your response to see if I'll go read the whole book this time and re-evaluate my conclusions. Unfortunately, you weren't aware he excludes evolution and cited Humani Generis when a zealous Catholic would say that evolution is insane which made me conclude your reading is unreliable.


Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
« Reply #272 on: July 13, 2023, 04:13:53 PM »
This is true.  But it's also true that the many indirect implications regarding flat earth do exist.  And until the Church rules such DON'T apply to flat earth, we are free to argue they do.

The Church has ruled.  She has said that Scripture is silent on this sort of issue.  Some people think that there are indirect implications, but this is their opinion, not a truth.  You are not free to argue that Scripture is teaching something (through indirect implications or otherwise) when the Church says that Scripture is silent on the subject.

You are free to believe that the earth is flat and to make arguments from science, but you have no authority to make claims about indirect implications of Scripture, especially not in contradiction to Church teaching.

I do not have strong feelings on the science of flat earth/ globe earth.  But I am very intense, "one-sided" as you say, on the subject of Church authority over interpretation of Scripture.  There were a few years in my youth when I was a fundamentalist protestant who accepted sola Scriptura.  I have been up close and personal with this heresy and I hate it.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
« Reply #273 on: July 13, 2023, 04:41:08 PM »

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The Church has ruled.  She has said that Scripture is silent on this sort of issue.
No.  (unless you're referring to another docuмent...) The docuмent PV by Pope Leo XIII does not say Scripture is silent on the issue.  



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Rather, that Scripture did not intend to "teach men...the essential nature of the things of the visible universe".
 This means that Scripture is not a science book, which delves into all the details of the universe.  That doesn't mean that Scripture is silent on EVERY detail of the universe.  It's not an either-or.  It's not all or none.




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(53) Hence they did not seek to penetrate the secrets of nature, but rather described and dealt with things in more or less figurative language, or in terms which were commonly used at the time, and which in many instances are in daily use at this day, even by the most eminent men of science.


Figurative language, as used here, does not mean a metaphor.  Because eminent scientists of our day don't use metaphors; they use facts.  So such figurative terms that Scripture uses correspond to current, science terms, or...there is enough detail that current scientists can "get" what Scripture is describing.

The analogy of what this encyclical is saying is this:  Scripture did not intend to explain what a cow is, how it produces milk and why it needs to eat grass and be milked everyday.  But (in some instances) it did explain that it was talking about a cow (it may not have used the word "cow" but something similar to a "grass eating animal") and it gave enough details so that current scientists can "get" that it was talking about a cow.

So, Scripture did not tell us the "whys" of a cow, but it certainly "explained" it in such a way that we would "get" what it was describing.

Arguably (but not definitively) some say the same thing about the shape of the earth.  The debate is open.


Offline Tradman

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Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
« Reply #274 on: July 14, 2023, 07:33:17 AM »

The Church is certainly not, and never has been, silent on issues of science.  The Church not only has the right, but the duty of proscribing false science.  

Vatican I,Canons and Decrees, Chapter III: Of Faith, says:

... all those things are to be believed with divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the Word of God,, written or handed down, and which the Church, either by a solemn judgment or by her ordinary teaching (magisterium),proposes for belief as having been divinely revealed. ... ... although faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason; since the same God Who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, and God cannot deny Himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth. The false appearance of such a contradiction is mainly due, either to the dogmas of faith not having been understood and expounded according to the mind of the Church, or to the inventions of opinion having been taken for the verdicts of reason. We define, therefore, that every assertion contrary to a truth of enlightened faith is utterly false. Further, the Church, which together with the apostolic office of teaching, has received a charge to guard the deposit of faith, derives from God the right and the duty of proscribing false science, lest any should be deceived by philosophy and vain deceit (can.ii) Therefore all faithful Christians are not only forbidden to defend as legitimate conclusions of science such opinions as are known to be contrary to the doctrines of faith, especially if they have been condemned by the Church, but are altogether bound to account them as errors which put on the fallacious appearance of truth. (D1797)

proscribe
prō-ˈskrīb

VERB

proscribed; proscribing

1. to publish the name of as condemned to death with the property of the condemned forfeited to the state
2. to condemn or forbid as harmful or unlawful : prohibit


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According to The Earthmovers, both Pope Paul V in 1616 and Pope Urban VIII in 1633 condemned Heliocentrism and the Pythagorean heresies of Galileo. With Urban VIII universally publicizing the verdict:


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On 2nd, July 1633, under orders of Pope Urban VIII, the condemnation of heliocentrism was made universally public, not just confined to Galileo alone as some apologists would argue later. Copies of the sentence and Galileo’s abjuration were sent to all vicar nuncios and inquisitors who in turn made them known to professors of philosophy and theology throughout the Catholic world. - Prologue, p. 9




Further, in the study of the Galileo Affair in the book "Burned Alive" by AA Martinez:


The theologian Inchofer was chosen in a panel of three to report on the Church's findings.  


Inchofer summarized the third official action against the New Pythagoreans: the Sacred Congregation’s condemnation of Galileo in June 1633, and that the Index had decreed that his Dialogue should be prohibited in August 1634. Inchofer then quoted the key points of the proceedings against Galileo: 228 burned alive And from what has been said, the Judgment and decree of the S. Congregation, built upon the authority of the Supreme Pontiff, we have this about the NeoPythagorean opinion, ‘it is false’, in the first place, ‘and entirely opposed to the divine Scripture, slithering perniciously into the Catholic truth’. Then, ‘It is repugnant to S. Scripture, and the true Catholic interpretation, [to be] minimally tolerated in a Christian man’, and finally, ‘totally prohibited ’.


Heliocentrism was called "false" "entirely opposed to divine Scripture" and "totally prohibited".
Heliocentric theories were then placed on the Index (still in effect today)
Heliocentrism was officially condemned by 3 popes 

"1605-1621 - Reign of Pope Paul V, who issued a 1616 decree condemning Copernicanism.
1623-1644 - Reign of Urban VIII, who issued a 2nd decree [1633] condemning Copernicanism.
1655-1657 - Reign of Pope Alexander VII, who issued a Bull [1644] reinforcing that Copernicanism was heretical...." (p.1 of O’Hanlon’s 4 page intro.)


Cardinal Ottaviani in 1966, in the same docuмent - Notification by Congregation for Doctrine of Faith: "This Congregation for Doctrine of Faith (...) reaffirms that its Index retains its moral value (...) in the sense that it is appealing to the conscience of the faithful (...) to be on their guard against written materials that can put faith and good conduct in danger" - Signed Alfredo Cardinal Ottaviani, June 14, 1966).


To sum up:


At least 3 popes despised, found repugnant, and fully condemned the entire Pythagorean Doctrine/heliocentrism.  Although they did not include a specific condemnation of the notion that earth was a globe, the entire doctrine was deemed dangerous to the faith.


To grasp at straws and say the Church didn't specifically condemn the globe, by consensus of legitimate authorities who "totally prohibited" the heliocentric model, the burden of proof that the globe was excluded from the condemnation, falls on the globers.