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Author Topic: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis  (Read 55931 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
« Reply #210 on: July 12, 2023, 11:01:12 AM »
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  • I can understand your wanting to come to his defense having read some of the very friendly chit chat between you two CathInfo Hero Members, but you're over your head on this one.  You are out and out wrong.  I know the meaning of calumny quite well and have for a very long time.

    At least he was apparently willing to call it a day and finally go to :sleep:, but you like a good buddy just had to jump in and get your two cents in. The daily CathInfo record setter for having the last word!  Just please don't expect me to engage with you anymore on this.  Hope you agree that the issue is not worth an iota more of either of our time and that if you do quote my post here you quote it in full.

    It has nothing to do with my being "buddies" with gladius.  You just don't understand the of the term calumny.  While the link he posted was meant as an insult, insults are not calumnies, and it was obvious that he was being tongue-in-cheek with the link.  If I call someone ugly, or effeminate, that's an insult, and can be an offense against charity, but it's not a calumny.  Basically they're expressions (somewhat subjective) of what one individual thinks of another.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #211 on: July 12, 2023, 11:32:17 AM »
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  • If someone has an open mind, this here is all you need to demonstrate that the earth is not a globe the size mainstream science claim it is.  If you're remotely honest, you'll admit that there's zero chance that this could be caused by "refraction".


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #212 on: July 12, 2023, 04:48:36 PM »
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  • Augustine tells us that scripture describes a flat earth. 

    No he does not.  He referred to the earth as aquosa et globosa moles, that is, "a watery and spherical mass"

    From his work De Genesi ad Litteram "On the Literal Meaning of Genesis":

    cuм enim totam terram adhuc aqua tegeret, nihil impediebat ut aquosa et globosa moles ex una parte faceret diem lucis praesentia, ex alia noctem lucis absentia, quae in eam partem succederet a tempore vespertino, ex qua lux in aliam declinaret.

    "Although water still covered all the earth, nothing was preventing the watery and spherical mass from having day on one side by the presence of light, and on the other side, night by the absence of light, that in the evening, darkness would pass to that side from which light would be turning to the other."


    We can see in Augustine expresses doubt that the sun even works on a globe.

      25.  "But if that primordial light had been poured round the mass of the earth on all sides to cover it all, whether it was stationary (geocentric globe) or circling round (heliocentric globe), there would have been no part in which it could let night into follow it, because it would not itself have withdrawn from anywhere to make room for it."
    You are misunderstanding this passage. In this passage, St. Augustine is answering the question "How did evening and morning follow each other in the first three days?"  This needs an explanation because the sun was not created until the fourth day and yet light was separated from darkness and there were days starting from the first day.

    He is not doubting the globe but assuming its existence in order to answer the question.  The primordial light (the sort of light that existed before the creation of the sun) could not have gone all the way around the earth because this would not allow for night.  He is not talking about the globe being stationary or moving, but about the primordial light being stationary or moving as it encircled the spherical earth.  Either way, there could be no night.

    He then considers the possibility of the primordial light only shining on one side of the earth at a time, creating day and night as it circled around.  This could work because the earth was a watery globe.  This, therefore, is his solution to the question he posed.


    Augustine questions the globe further and finishes with: "Who would say such a thing, when he can see the fields of the sea, spread out level on all sides."

    Again, in context it is very clear that he is not questioning the globe earth model. This statement comes from an answer to the question:  "As the water under heaven had first covered the whole earth, where did it recede to for the dry land to appear?"

    St. Augustine says:
    "They [the waters covering the earth] were not, surely, collected into a pile as happens on the threshing floor when the harvest that has been threshed is winnowed and then swept into a heap, and so lays bare the place it had been spread over and covered." This is what he refers to when he asks "Who would ever say such a thing?"  St. Augustine is making the obviously true observation that nobody would say such a thing of water because it always appears level. He is not commenting on the shape of the earth.

    Globe promoters will fight tooth and nail to insist earth is a globe, but when confronted with information and facts, they either refuse to read or deal with it, or, they tell us it doesn't really matter.  Or, that we have to all wait until we're dead to find out the truth. Or that God doesn't tell us anything about it. This lack of desire to get to the truth says it all. I have yet to find a globe earther that has not tried this and other maneuvers to avoid dealing with the truth when their argument falls apart. 

    Nothing that you have said about St. Augustine's views is actually supported when one reads the quotes you cited in context.  There was nothing true in your entire post.

    Anyone who wishes to read On the Literal Meaning of Genesis may do so here:https://isidore.co/CalibreLibrary/Augustine,%20St_/On%20Genesis%20(5059)/On%20Genesis%20-%20Augustine,%20St_.pdf (It starts on page 160) Read it for yourselves and do not rely on quotes that distort its meaning.  It is not an exhortation to read Genesis in a literal way. On the contrary, it is at points critical of literal interpretations.

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #213 on: July 12, 2023, 06:04:45 PM »
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  • Anyone who wishes to read On the Literal Meaning of Genesis may do so here:https://isidore.co/CalibreLibrary/Augustine,%20St_/On%20Genesis%20(5059)/On%20Genesis%20-%20Augustine,%20St_.pdf (It starts on page 160) Read it for yourselves and do not rely on quotes that distort its meaning.  It is not an exhortation to read Genesis in a literal way. On the contrary, it is at points critical of literal interpretations.
    Thanks for warning us you don't believe in Genesis. We Catholics know Augustine took Genesis literally and that's why he called his book like that.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #214 on: July 12, 2023, 06:33:30 PM »
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  • Thanks for warning us you don't believe in Genesis. We Catholics know Augustine took Genesis literally and that's why he called his book like that.
    I understand Genesis pretty much the same way that St. Augustine did.  Few people have been as influential on the Catholic understanding of Scripture as he has been.  

    Read what he actually wrote instead of instead of deciding that you already know what it says.  I already posted the link. 


    Offline Tradman

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #215 on: July 12, 2023, 06:35:34 PM »
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  • Thank you for your input.  My answers in bold.  

    No he does not.  He referred to the earth as aquosa et globosa moles, that is, "a watery and spherical mass"

    From his work De Genesi ad Litteram "On the Literal Meaning of Genesis":

    cuм enim totam terram adhuc aqua tegeret, nihil impediebat ut aquosa et globosa moles ex una parte faceret diem lucis praesentia, ex alia noctem lucis absentia, quae in eam partem succederet a tempore vespertino, ex qua lux in aliam declinaret.

    "Although water still covered all the earth, nothing was preventing the watery and spherical mass from having day on one side by the presence of light, and on the other side, night by the absence of light, that in the evening, darkness would pass to that side from which light would be turning to the other."

    I find this is an example of people who see the word "globe" or in this case, "watery and spherical mass" and think it proves their case because they don't read in context.  Augustine is debunking the watery spherical mass promoted by the pagans because he believes the literal interpretation of scripture.  


    You are misunderstanding this passage. In this passage, St. Augustine is answering the question "How did evening and morning follow each other in the first three days?"  This needs an explanation because the sun was not created until the fourth day and yet light was separated from darkness and there were days starting from the first day.

    He is not debunking the globe but assuming its existence in order to answer the question. The primordial light (the sort of light that existed before the creation of the sun) could not have gone all the way around the earth because this would not allow for night.  He is not talking about the globe being stationary or moving, but about the primordial light being stationary or moving as it encircled the spherical earth.  Either way, there could be no night.

    He then considers the possibility of the primordial light only shining on one side of the earth at a time, creating day and night as it circled around.  This could work because the earth was a watery globe.  This, therefore, is his solution to the question he posed.

    We know Augustine is questioning the globe earth model because he's telling us to read scripture literally.  Hence, the title.  "On the Literal Meaning of Genesis."  Are you suggesting Augustine is telling us scripture describes a globe?  Scripture never does. Nor does such a thought work with the title on the literal meaning of Genesis.  It's already disturbing when pagans refuse to use the literal interpretation of scripture and pretend it doesn't say what it actually says. How much worse if Catholics do it?   

    Again, in context it is very clear that he is not questioning the globe earth model. This statement comes from an answer to the question:  "As the water under heaven had first covered the whole earth, where did it recede to for the dry land to appear?"

    You haven't proven Augustine was questioning the globe from literal interpretation.  Unless he is actually saying scripture describes a globe, which he doesn't even pretend to do.  Otherwise, he'd use a different title for his work.  In fact, he sums it all up saying it's obvious earth isn't a globe because water and fields are obviously level.    

     Perfect example

    St. Augustine says: "They [the waters covering the earth] were not, surely, collected into a pile as happens on the threshing floor when the harvest that has been threshed is winnowed and then swept into a heap, and so lays bare the place it had been spread over and covered." This is what he refers to when he asks "Who would ever say such a thing?"  St. Augustine is making the obviously true observation that nobody would say such a thing of water because it always appears level. He is not commenting on the shape of the earth.

    Augustine is complaining that water doesn't heap up to form a curve, which would happen if earth was a globe, because water surface is level.  Honestly, if Catholics refuse the literal, what else is there? Modernism? Francis? 

    Nothing that you have said about St. Augustine's views is actually supported when one reads the quotes you cited in context.  There was nothing true in your entire post.

    Augustine has been defending the literal meaning of scripture in this work and is showing the globe to be incompatible with scripture.    

    Anyone who wishes to read On the Literal Meaning of Genesis may do so here:https://isidore.co/CalibreLibrary/Augustine,%20St_/On%20Genesis%20(5059)/On%20Genesis%20-%20Augustine,%20St_.pdf (It starts on page 160) Read it for yourselves and do not rely on quotes that distort its meaning.  It is not an exhortation to read Genesis in a literal way. On the contrary, it is at points critical of literal interpretations.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #216 on: July 12, 2023, 06:42:54 PM »
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  • Tradman, did you actually read the entire On the Literal Meaning of Genesis or do you base your understanding on isolated quotes?  I find it hard to believe that a person who had read the whole thing would misunderstand it as badly as you do.

    Here is a passage in which St. Augustine is being explicitly critical of literal interpretation:

    19. "And God said, 'Let there be light,' and the light was made." We ought to understand that God did not say, "Let there be light," by a sound brought forth from the lungs, or by the tongue and teeth. Such thoughts are those of carnal persons, and to be wise in accord with the flesh is death. "Let there be light," was spoken ineffably. One can ask whether what was spoken is the only-begotten Son. For what was spoken is called the Word of God by whom all things were made. Only let us banish the impiety of believing that the Word of God, the only-begotten Son, comes about like a sound uttered by us.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #217 on: July 12, 2023, 07:20:46 PM »
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  • Anyone who wishes to read On the Literal Meaning of Genesis may do so here:https://isidore.co/CalibreLibrary/Augustine,%20St_/On%20Genesis%20(5059)/On%20Genesis%20-%20Augustine,%20St_.pdf (It starts on page 160) Read it for yourselves and do not rely on quotes that distort its meaning.  It is not an exhortation to read Genesis in a literal way. On the contrary, it is at points critical of literal interpretations.

    Sorry, I just realized that this link is wrong.  St. Augustine wrote two works with similar titles and this link is not to the one we were discussing.  The site which I originally used to read it no longer has a good link and I can't find another site that is both free and in English.  It is still worth reading this one, but it won't match the quotes we were discussing.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #218 on: July 12, 2023, 09:06:39 PM »
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  • The pagan Greeks believed in a globe earth; St Augustine disagreed with the pagans.

    If the pagan Greeks (the non-freemason/non-occult ones) had had Nikon cameras, they would've been against globe earth too.

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #219 on: July 12, 2023, 09:09:07 PM »
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  • Tradman, did you actually read the entire On the Literal Meaning of Genesis or do you base your understanding on isolated quotes?  I find it hard to believe that a person who had read the whole thing would misunderstand it as badly as you do.

    Here is a passage in which St. Augustine is being explicitly critical of literal interpretation:

    19. "And God said, 'Let there be light,' and the light was made." We ought to understand that God did not say, "Let there be light," by a sound brought forth from the lungs, or by the tongue and teeth. Such thoughts are those of carnal persons, and to be wise in accord with the flesh is death. "Let there be light," was spoken ineffably. One can ask whether what was spoken is the only-begotten Son. For what was spoken is called the Word of God by whom all things were made. Only let us banish the impiety of believing that the Word of God, the only-begotten Son, comes about like a sound uttered by us.

    This doesn't show that scripture or Augustine isn't talking about the literal. It's obvious that God doesn't speak with a human voice. God is a spirit.  Scripture just says God spoke. That is, He willed it, and it was done. This doesn't help your case. Specific descriptions are different. Scripture describes the form of the earth using words and ideas common to human understanding and they always describe a flat earth. They never describe a globe.  

    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #220 on: July 12, 2023, 09:15:56 PM »
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  • "a watery and spherical mass"

    could apply to both models but only one corresponds to Sacred Scripture:

    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



    [fon


    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #221 on: July 13, 2023, 01:42:50 AM »
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  • Tradman, did you actually read the entire On the Literal Meaning of Genesis or do you base your understanding on isolated quotes?  I find it hard to believe that a person who had read the whole thing would misunderstand it as badly as you do.

    Here is a passage in which St. Augustine is being explicitly critical of literal interpretation:

    19. "And God said, 'Let there be light,' and the light was made." We ought to understand that God did not say, "Let there be light," by a sound brought forth from the lungs, or by the tongue and teeth. Such thoughts are those of carnal persons, and to be wise in accord with the flesh is death. "Let there be light," was spoken ineffably. One can ask whether what was spoken is the only-begotten Son. For what was spoken is called the Word of God by whom all things were made. Only let us banish the impiety of believing that the Word of God, the only-begotten Son, comes about like a sound uttered by us.
    :facepalm: 

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #222 on: July 13, 2023, 04:55:06 AM »
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  • This doesn't show that scripture or Augustine isn't talking about the literal. It's obvious that God doesn't speak with a human voice. God is a spirit.  Scripture just says God spoke. That is, He willed it, and it was done. 

    St. Augustine writes of four ways of understanding Scripture proper to Catholics:

     in accord with history, allegory, analogy, and etiology. It is a matter of history when deeds done-whether by men or by God-are reported. It is a matter of allegory when things spoken in figures are understood. It is a matter of analogy, when the conformity of the Old and New Testaments is shown. It is a matter of etiology when the causes of what is said or done are reported

    This first sense is sometimes called the literal sense. St. Augustine wrote two books about the literal meaning of Genesis in which the focus was what actually, historically happened rather than the other three ways of understanding.  Neither of these was an exhortation to take everything in Genesis (or Scripture in general) literally, that is, without recognizing figures of speech. Expressions in Scripture about God speaking, having a mouth, hands or arms are not literal and it is incorrect to understand them that way, since as you say, God is a spirit.  

    Anyone who reads these works in their entirety can see that St. Augustine explitly taught that Scripture is silent on the shape of the earth. He disagrees with every flat earther who claims that Scripture teaches the earth is flat. His view (which is also the Catholic view and my personal view) is that Scripture teaches neither that the earth is flat nor that it is a globe.  

    It is not possible to have actually read his works (rather than isolated quotes) and think anything else.  Scholars discuss what Augustine personally believed and the vast majority conclude that he believed in a globe earth.  A notable exception is Leo Ferrari, who wrote a famous paper on the thesis that Augustine personally believed in flat earth.  The work the poster cassini quoted was a critique of Ferrari's paper. (I have read the entire critique and think that the author made a good case that Ferrari was wrong.)

    Tradman, you did not answer my question about whether you read On the Literal Meaning of Genesis.  Given how wrong your understanding of this work is, I am going to assume that you did not. I would be interested in discussing this work with anyone who as read it and especially interested in finding a functional link for it.  But I don't have anything to say to people who simply make false assertions about Augustine's views.




    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #223 on: July 13, 2023, 05:55:17 AM »
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  • Jaynek do you believe in evolution and do you think Augustine supports it?


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #224 on: July 13, 2023, 06:48:20 AM »
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  • Jaynek do you believe in evolution and do you think Augustine supports it?
    I accept what the Church taught on the subject in the encyclical Humani Generis: https://www.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis.html

    I think that St. Augustine neither supports nor rejects it, since the theory did not exist in his life time. We can safely say, however, that he would not accept any theory that denied that truth that God is the Creator of the universe.