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Author Topic: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis  (Read 55785 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
« Reply #150 on: July 09, 2023, 06:31:14 PM »
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  • Toward the beginning of one of his anti-flat earth articles Robert Sungenis says:

    "As we will see, it is their poor exegesis of the Bible that drives (flat earthers) to think that everything NASA

    tells them about the Earth is a lie."

    It is Sungenis' poor grasp of logic that drives him to make this statement.  Nobody says that EVERYTHING NASA tells us about the earth is a lie.  That's a huge strawman for starters.  Nevertheless, the legal principle holds that falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus, or, "false in one thing, false in everything".  What this means is that if someone has been caught lying, then his entire testimony cannot be used as proof and has lost credibility.  Since NASA has been caught lying, faking, and hoaxing REPEATEDLY, even if they happen to be telling the truth about one or another thing here or there, their statement cannot be taken as proof or evidence of anything.

    Sungenis then minimizes the NASA lying in his large book as consisting of one example where they obviously photoshopped a picture of the earth into the "lunar sky".  He even tried to minimize it by referring to the lie as a "foible".

    No, Dr. Sungenis, entire volumes larger than even his own can be filled with docuмented proof of NASA fraud, hoaxes, and outright lying.  NASA therefore has no credibility whatsoever and nothing they produce can be used as proof for anything.  falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus.  Nobody says they're lying about everything, just that you can't know for sure when they're lying and when they're not lying.

    I love how Sungenis spends a very long time defending NASA, the same NASA that on account of their atheistic and Masonic agenda also deride Sungenis and his geocentrism.  So "Pilate and Herod made friends that day".  He should be ashamed of himself to take up the cause of the devilish NASA in order to beat up on FEs, most of whom should be considered as being on the same side, as we Catholic FEs have great reverence for the inerrancy of Sacred Scripture.

    In any case, he reminds me of this story that happened on the school playground when I was a kid.  So one kid was regularly bullied by this one tough kid.  Then, at one point, the bully started beating up on a different kid, since I guess the bully got bored of the first one.  So, in order to curry favor with the bully, the first kid joined in on the attack against the new victim.  Sungenis, trying to not be reviled by NASA for associating with FEs, has joined in with NASA to beat up on NASA's newest victim ... hoping to curry favor with NASA and win some respectibility.  I find this shameful behavior, and so the gloves come off against Sungenis on this topic.  He can dish it out, so I have no problem serving it right back up to him.  Game on.  FEs by and large have always supported his work, and he turns on them now to ally with NASA.

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #151 on: July 09, 2023, 06:32:46 PM »
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  • Where have you been?!  He can defend and he has defended his positions for years (and not just for the sake of traditional Catholics, but for all kinds of people) in all kinds of venues for what he believes (whether you agree with him or not) is the truth.  As for the criticism of things he asserts or doesn't assert that commenced decades ago!

    Who are you to defend Sungenis? Let him speak for himself. Unless you're him.  

    Sungenis said it himself.  By his own words Sungenis admits to and defends liars (NASA) and promotes liars (NASA).   Sungenis better be able to defend all that lying or cease and desist.    


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #152 on: July 09, 2023, 06:46:05 PM »
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  • I have no issues with a respectful disagreement and an objective presentation of the arguments and the evidence for a contrary opinion.  In fact, I saw an interview with Dr. Sungenis discussing his anti-FE book, and he took a rather respectful tone toward FE, so I bought his book to read what he had to say with an open mind, since I had a lot of respect for him, and figured I'd find the best arguments out there against the FE position.

    I was quite mistaken, as practically from page one, he was deriding FEs, calling them dishonest, liars, manipulative, every name in the book.  When I pointed out that it was Sungenis who was being intellectually dishonest, I got attacked ruthlessly here on CI for doing the same thing that he did to FEs on the book, and also because some individuals don't understand the difference between deliberate mendacity (lying) and intellectual dishonesty (where you're not open-minded about a subject and thus apply evidence via confirmation bias).

    None of his arguments were anything new, just rehashes of stuff that has long been debunked, except that I can't make any judgment regarding the statements he made regarding the rotation of the stars in the Southern hemisphere.  I've seen videos from both sides on the subject, but visualizing stuff like that is one of my weaknesses, since I have no artistic ability whatsoever.  If I have time, it's a subject I could try to delve into, but I can't do it too much justice.

    Now, I don't think it's worth too much time to argue about the Church Fathers' opinions on the matter, since I don't think they had a dogmatic unanimity or consensus on the subject, but I found him completely distorting references from the Church Fathers.  Every time he saw the word "sphere" and a couple times even the word "circle", he interpreted that as the Father supporting a ball earth.  But I showed how the evidence was contradicted by other statements and that he was misreading the fact that the Fathers had in mind the shape of the world, including the firmament.  In fact, one Father clearly described the world as a sphere ... with a circular slice through the middle.  How does NASA's ball have this circular cross-section?  This was clearly a reference to a spherical firmament through which the plane of the earth we walk on cuts a circular cross-section.  In any case, I could go on.

    He's even discredited in the choice of DaVinci's "Salvator Mundi" for his cover, and his misuse of that typifies his confirmation bias.  If you look at the globe in Our Lord's hand, you can clearly see a tan section at the bottom and blue at the top of the globe, and the 3 dots in the blue (sky) section are considered by art critics to be the constellation Leo.  So, how then, Doctor Sungenis, do stars appear inside the solid ball earth?  No, the "Salvator Mundi" clearly showed the globe the same way the Flemish artists always depicted "Salvator Mundi".


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #153 on: July 09, 2023, 06:51:56 PM »
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  • Here's DaVinci's version that Sungenis wrongly uses on the cover of his book to push ball earth.  Although Our Lord is holding a sphere, it's transparent, and His hand is clearly meant to double for the "land" on the bottom, and the blue on top (caused by His garment) is in fact the blue sky.  That's backed up by the 3 stars, which art critics say is the constellation Leo.  So, Dr. Sungenis, is the constellation Leo in the Pacific Ocean?  Of course not.  This depiction below is clearly along the same lines as the Flemish version above.  There are many similar depictions, so just Google "Salvator Mundi Flemish".  It wasn't until later that some Salvator Mundi depictions replaced this orb with the NASA globe (and they looked stupid).


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #154 on: July 09, 2023, 06:56:24 PM »
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  • So Sungenis is "Flat Wrong" even on the COVER of his book.  And it doesn't get any better.

    So, tripping right out of the starting gate (right on the cover of his book) ...


    Offline Tradman

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #155 on: July 09, 2023, 07:14:23 PM »
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  • Is Sungenis some how, some way, defending the truth?


    To make flat earthers feel real stupid, Sungenis says in his book:
    "they (flat earthers) have been deceived by the Wellhausen scholars and have become the very unsophisticated and clueless Bible‐thumpers that the scholars wish to portray them as."

    So anyone who quotes scripture is automatically a Bible-thumper?  

    This is so telling.     

       




    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #156 on: July 09, 2023, 07:23:01 PM »
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  • Is Sungenis some how, some way, defending the truth?


    To make flat earthers feel real stupid, Sungenis says in his book:
    "they (flat earthers) have been deceived by the Wellhausen scholars and have become the very unsophisticated and clueless Bible‐thumpers that the scholars wish to portray them as."

    So anyone who quotes scripture is automatically a Bible-thumper? 

    This is so telling.   

     

    Generally, Dr. Sungenis tends to speak with reverence of Sacred Scripture, so this says something when suddenly he uses it as a term of derision.  You'll see in statements like that the disrespectful derision that permeates his book:  "very unsophisticated and clueless".

    So what really is the goal of his book when he derides FEs?  Is he really hoping to persuade them of their errors?  You're not going to do that with the mockery and derision.  If anything, they're going to double down.

    No, his intention was to distance himself from FE so as to curry favor with the atheistic "scientific" establishment.

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #157 on: July 09, 2023, 07:40:38 PM »
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  • Sungenis twists scripture.

    Sungenis says:

    Since from the human perspective the heavens appear as dome above a flat earth heaven as it appears to us today as we look into the heavens when standing on earth, the NAB translators slant their translation to depict that primitive picture. In turn, this slanted translation allows these modern scholars to disregard the literal teachings of Genesis 1 and make the text appear as fanciful and unscientific ruminations of ancient peoples who were unversed in the real science of how the universe came into being. And here’s the rub. Instead of a miraculous creation in six days spoken into existence by God, these scholars believe in such theories as the Big Bang and evolution as the only way the material world came into being. They have the same disregard for divine miraculous intrusion for all the other narratives in Genesis ሺe.g., the great flood of Noah’s day; the exodus from Egypt, etc.ሻ. Since Genesis 1 teaches, for example, that the Earth was created before the sun, moon and stars…”


    Read the paragraph above again and Sungenis' view is outrageous. First he admits scripture says earth appears to be flat in the NAB, but then twists that to come to a different conclusion for himself as if the NAB translators were flat earthers. Words fail me, the man is nuts. Then Sungenis suggests the "literal' translation says something else entirely and blames the NAB translation for a "primitive view of earth".  False. I have yet to see a translation that doesn't tell us that there is a firmament dividing water above from the water below it, against Sungenis's claim earth is ball in space. Scripture paints a very clear picture and earth isn't a ball. Sungenis is biased against the truth. Then Sungenis blames the same "scholars" for believing the Big Bang (But wait, I though they were flat earthers?) while he later quotes Big Bang scientist after Big Bang scientist to make his case that earth is a dangling ball in space. I'd spend more time dissecting this garbage, but this ridiculous assessment by Sungenis is so annoying, I will end it here.     


    Offline Always

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #158 on: July 09, 2023, 08:03:37 PM »
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  • It is Sungenis' poor grasp of logic that drives him to make this statement.  Nobody says that EVERYTHING NASA tells us about the earth is a lie.  That's a huge strawman for starters.  Nevertheless, the legal principle holds that falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus, or, "false in one thing, false in everything".  What this means is that if someone has been caught lying, then his entire testimony cannot be used as proof and has lost credibility.  Since NASA has been caught lying, faking, and hoaxing REPEATEDLY, even if they happen to be telling the truth about one or another thing here or there, their statement cannot be taken as proof or evidence of anything.

    Sungenis then minimizes the NASA lying in his large book as consisting of one example where they obviously photoshopped a picture of the earth into the "lunar sky".  He even tried to minimize it by referring to the lie as a "foible".

    No, Dr. Sungenis, entire volumes larger than even his own can be filled with docuмented proof of NASA fraud, hoaxes, and outright lying.  NASA therefore has no credibility whatsoever and nothing they produce can be used as proof for anything.  falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus.  Nobody says they're lying about everything, just that you can't know for sure when they're lying and when they're not lying.

    I love how Sungenis spends a very long time defending NASA, the same NASA that on account of their atheistic and Masonic agenda also deride Sungenis and his geocentrism.  So "Pilate and Herod made friends that day".  He should be ashamed of himself to take up the cause of the devilish NASA in order to beat up on FEs, most of whom should be considered as being on the same side, as we Catholic FEs have great reverence for the inerrancy of Sacred Scripture.

    In any case, he reminds me of this story that happened on the school playground when I was a kid.  So one kid was regularly bullied by this one tough kid.  Then, at one point, the bully started beating up on a different kid, since I guess the bully got bored of the first one.  So, in order to curry favor with the bully, the first kid joined in on the attack against the new victim.  Sungenis, trying to not be reviled by NASA for associating with FEs, has joined in with NASA to beat up on NASA's newest victim ... hoping to curry favor with NASA and win some respectibility.  I find this shameful behavior, and so the gloves come off against Sungenis on this topic.  He can dish it out, so I have no problem serving it right back up to him.  Game on.  FEs by and large have always supported his work, and he turns on them now to ally with NASA.

    It's all fine and dandy that you think Sungenis acts like the first bullied child in your story in explaining his position on FE as being one simplistically motivated by a need to curry favor with NASA.  If you have solid docuмented proof of that please present it.  Frankly, I don't think he could care less about what NASA thinks about his work and I don't think NASA has one iota of influence over him. 

    Obviously, NASA lies about all kinds of things and Sungenis does not deny that for one second.  Sungenis, for example, has on many more than one occasion openly stated that he doesn't think we ever went to the moon and that NASA is lying about it.  If he was so consumed by a desire to curry favor with NASA (whatever that in practical terms actually means) he certainly would not be saying that!   

    When it comes to NASA you really have no way of proving that they have pumped out more false information over the years than true information.  Heck if we were to just ignore NASA why should anyone go on to CathInfo and read all the goofy and often downright false stuff tossed onto its various forums!  Even on CathInfo we have a need to sort the wheat from the chaff.

    In any event, regardless of the amount of false information NASA may have pumped out, you don't have to throw NASA (the baby) out with all its stinking bath water.  No doubt there are honest scientists and others working in good faith in that gigantic government agency just as there are honest scientists and others working outside of NASA.  To say that those outside NASA should exclude out of hand anything that comes out of that agency surely borders on the ludicrous.  The wisdom of the following words in Sacred Scripture need not be withheld when looking at NASA and all kinds of other worldly entities:  1 Thess. 5: 20-21: "Despise not prophecies [nor NASA. Some prophecies from the same prophets are true and some are false].  But prove all things; hold fast that which is good."  To absolutely refuse to examine any findings of NASA because of the potential lie in anything they say is akin to an extremely broad Luddite position which would not be open to any technological change because of the possible harm which may ensue.

    Offline Always

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #159 on: July 09, 2023, 08:30:48 PM »
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  • Who are you to defend Sungenis? Let him speak for himself. Unless you're him. 

    Sungenis said it himself.  By his own words Sungenis admits to and defends liars (NASA) and promotes liars (NASA).  Sungenis better be able to defend all that lying or cease and desist.   


     I am a friend of his. Have you never defended a friend?! 

     As I already indicated he has been defending himself for years on all kinds of venues -- a lot more than you could shake a stick at. 

     I am confident in my belief that if Sungenis believed NASA was intentionally telling a particular falsehood while knowing it was false for the purpose of deceiving the public he absolutely would not defend their action in doing so.  If you are claiming that he not only would do that, but that he actually has done that in a knowing and voluntary way then you are making an assertion about his internal forum, something which I don't believe you have access to.  In effect you are stating that he has committed a sin.  I hope you would reconsider what you have said and not double down on it.

    I have absolutely no problem in defending any good that NASA may do nor does Sungenis.  We both go with what we believe just as you go with what you believe.  You sweep with a very broad brush.  You indicate that NASA is lying because it backs Globe Earth.  Please take a deep breath.  Not even Holy Mother Church has pronounced on the subject.  It may well be that we will never know whether it's a FE or a GE until we die. 

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #160 on: July 09, 2023, 08:34:28 PM »
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  • Throughout his critique of flat earth, Sungenis quotes and praises modern Heliocentric Big Bang scientists in order to support his theories.

    Below, Sungenis quotes from one Paul C. W. Davies.  

    Let's get a little info on Davies from Wikipedia....

    Wiki says Davies' research interests are in the fields of cosmology, quantum field theory, and astrobiology:
    "Davies' inquiries have included theoretical physics, cosmology, and astrobiology; his research has been mainly in the area of quantum field theory in curved spacetime. His notable contributions are the so-called Fulling–Davies–Unruh effect, according to which an observer accelerating through empty space will perceive a bath of thermal radiation, and the Bunch–Davies vacuum state, often used as the basis for explaining the fluctuations in the cosmic background radiation left over from the Big Bang."

    So Davies is a Big Banger.  As Sungenis points the finger at the flat earthers claiming they belong to the Big Bang theory, he is parading around naked as a guy without clothes. Davies is not the only one Sungenis uses, either.  Sungenis' proofs always come from pagan Heliocentric personalities. 

    Sungenis quotes James Clerk Maxwell.  Let's look at Maxwell on Wiki.

    "On the centenary of Maxwell's birthday, Einstein described Maxwell's work as the "most profound and the most fruitful that physics has experienced since the time of Newton". At Trinity he was elected to the elite secret society known as the Cambridge Apostles .He joined the "Apostles", an exclusive debating society of the intellectual elite, where through his essays he sought to work out this understanding. Immediately after earning his degree, Maxwell read his paper On the Transformation of Surfaces by Bending to the Cambridge Philosophical Society...His contributions to the science are considered by many to be of the same magnitude as those of Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein. In the millennium poll—a survey of the 100 most prominent physicists—Maxwell was voted the third greatest physicist of all time, behind only Newton and Einstein.

    Interestingly, almost every subject Maxwell studied is related to furthering the cause of pagan Heliocentrism.  So fascinating that Sungenis would recommend and quote him so copiously. And lets not forget, Einstein the heliocentric scientist loved Maxwell.

    Let's see who else Sungenis recommends.
    Dr. Abhay Ashtekar.

    Wiki says of the religious beliefs of Dr. Abhay Ashtekar.  "Dr. Abhay Ashtekar is an atheist, though he enjoys reading on Indian and other eastern philosophy, namely the Tao and the Zen traditions. Furthermore, he claims to be inspired from the Bhagwat Gita as regards his attitude towards work." And, "The Bhagavadgita may be treated as a great synthesis of the ideas of the impersonal spiritual monism with personalistic monotheism, of the yoga of action with the yoga of transcendence of action, and these again with yogas of devotion and knowledge."

    Having purred about these scientist's modern black hole dark matter science including extensive insight to the enigmatic Planck theory, Sungenis goes back to complaining about the Big Bangers and Heliocentrists, who he just got finished praising and quoting. 


    Offline Always

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #161 on: July 09, 2023, 08:44:19 PM »
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  • No, his intention was to distance himself from FE so as to curry favor with the atheistic "scientific" establishment.

    This is a constant refrain with you and a great slander against Dr. Sungenis.  The fact is that -- OK, prove me wrong -- you have never presented any sort of substantial and docuмented proof to back up this claim. In effect, it amounts to no more than mere speculation on your part, no matter how much of an educated speculation you may think it is.

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #162 on: July 09, 2023, 08:50:52 PM »
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  • I am a friend of his. Have you never defended a friend?!

     As I already indicated he has been defending himself for years on all kinds of venues -- a lot more than you could shake a stick at.

     I am confident in my belief that if Sungenis believed NASA was intentionally telling a particular falsehood while knowing it was false for the purpose of deceiving the public he absolutely would not defend their action in doing so.  If you are claiming that he not only would do that, but that he actually has done that in a knowing and voluntary way then you are making an assertion about his internal forum, something which I don't believe you have access to.  In effect you are stating that he has committed a sin.  I hope you would reconsider what you have said and not double down on it.

    I have absolutely no problem in defending any good that NASA may do nor does Sungenis.  We both go with what we believe just as you go with what you believe.  You sweep with a very broad brush.  You indicate that NASA is lying because it backs Globe Earth.  Please take a deep breath.  Not even Holy Mother Church has pronounced on the subject.  It may well be that we will never know whether it's a FE or a GE until we die.

    Yes, I've defended friends, many times. If NASA were all Sungenis quoted and supported, that would be bad enough.  I wish it were different. I don't have a personal problem with Sungenis on any other issue and have appreciated his input in the Catholic world especially on Fatima. But Sungenis has little if any problem with Big Bang science promoters and he glowingly quotes pagan scientists repeatedly in his book while calling flat earthers "Bible thumpers". Sorry if these entries sound rude regarding your friend, I wish it were different and that he would abandon the ridiculous notion that earth is a globe.  

    Offline Always

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #163 on: July 09, 2023, 08:56:06 PM »
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  • So Sungenis is "Flat Wrong" even on the COVER of his book.  And it doesn't get any better.

    So, tripping right out of the starting gate (right on the cover of his book) ...


    You can't judge a book by its cover.  People get ridiculously hung arguing endlessly back and forth about the cover on his book.  Write your own book!  At least Cassini did that!

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #164 on: July 09, 2023, 10:43:35 PM »
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  • It's all fine and dandy that you think Sungenis acts like the first bullied child in your story in explaining his position on FE as being one simplistically motivated by a need to curry favor with NASA.  If you have solid docuмented proof of that please present it.  Frankly, I don't think he could care less about what NASA thinks about his work and I don't think NASA has one iota of influence over him.

    Obviously, NASA lies about all kinds of things and Sungenis does not deny that for one second.  Sungenis, for example, has on many more than one occasion openly stated that he doesn't think we ever went to the moon and that NASA is lying about it.  If he was so consumed by a desire to curry favor with NASA (whatever that in practical terms actually means) he certainly would not be saying that! 

    When it comes to NASA you really have no way of proving that they have pumped out more false information over the years than true information.  Heck if we were to just ignore NASA why should anyone go on to CathInfo and read all the goofy and often downright false stuff tossed onto its various forums!  Even on CathInfo we have a need to sort the wheat from the chaff.

    In any event, regardless of the amount of false information NASA may have pumped out, you don't have to throw NASA (the baby) out with all its stinking bath water.  No doubt there are honest scientists and others working in good faith in that gigantic government agency just as there are honest scientists and others working outside of NASA.  To say that those outside NASA should exclude out of hand anything that comes out of that agency surely borders on the ludicrous.  The wisdom of the following words in Sacred Scripture need not be withheld when looking at NASA and all kinds of other worldly entities:  1 Thess. 5: 20-21: "Despise not prophecies [nor NASA. Some prophecies from the same prophets are true and some are false].  But prove all things; hold fast that which is good."  To absolutely refuse to examine any findings of NASA because of the potential lie in anything they say is akin to an extremely broad Luddite position which would not be open to any technological change because of the possible harm which may ensue.
    Cathinfo doesn't get trillions of dollars every year from tax payers.... Apples and oranges.