Author Topic: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis (Read 55806 times)

Always · « **Reply #60 on:** July 06, 2023, 01:36:42 AM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis on July 05, 2023, 11:31:48 PM

70, 700, or 7000 pages is but a meaningless number if/when one is wrong. This realm is a flat plane underneath a dome. Even Werhner von Braun's own tombstone testifies to the truth: The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

70, 700, or 7000 posts on CathInfo is but a meaningless number if/when one is wrong.

cassini · « **Reply #61 on:** July 06, 2023, 05:24:49 AM »

Quote from: Meg on July 05, 2023, 05:11:12 PM

Always,

in your recent lengthy post, I can't find any mention of where Heaven is located above a globe earth. And there's no mention of the Firmament, which in Scripture is said to be below the waters (that are above the Firmament). If you want to be true to Scripture, this needs to be adequately addressed.

Sungenis doesn't take these important things into account.

Why is it that in order to have a flat-Earth the supernatural has to be brought down to a natural explanation? In other words, we do not live on a global Earth because everyone on it has the earth below their feet and heaven above their head. Oh yes, God created the sun, moon and planets as globes, but the Earth cannot be one because we all experience life as though the Earth is flat.

This 'natural' way of thinking rules out the supernatural belief that God created a global Earth like every other cosmic body visible from Earth. Look at the moon. If the same logic was applied to the moon and planets, then bits of it, rocks, dust etc, would be falling off the underside of them. But this doesn't happen.

A God created global Earth would need a supernatural element to ensure all on such a globe had the Earth under their feet and the sky above their heads. God couldn't do that now, could He? That would have to be an ongoing miracle, like Jesus walking through a wall. Such supernatural belief is beyond even Catholics. Then again Atheists must believe it does happen like that. They call it gravity, a word that explains how everything stays OK on a globe without falling off. If you asked an atheist what a 'firmament' is they would probably say, a circle of air that surrounds the Earth to allow life, but it fades away when you get to those watery clouds that surround the Earth.

When Jesus ascended into heaven in front of all the Apostles he went straight up. If He lived in Australia He would have done the same. 'Impossible' says a flat Earther, He had to ascend from a flat Earth. Funny how not one of the Apostles doubted that Heaven was above, and Hell below, even from their global Earth.

Now if I was a clever atheist, I would think about it and see a global Earth had to be a natural and supernatural combined creation. I wouldn't want that, so I would argue a flat-Earth with all mankind with their feet on the ground and sky above is far more believable than a semi-supernatural global Earth.

Tradman · « **Reply #62 on:** July 06, 2023, 07:23:05 AM »

Pachamama and the globe conception. Know who you serve.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #63 on:** July 06, 2023, 07:37:07 AM »

Quote from: Meg on July 05, 2023, 05:55:31 PM

Right, it's as if it doesn't really matter where Heaven is located, or where the firmament or waters above the firmament are located. The globe earth model effectively does away with such pesky and inconvenient considerations, as if it doesn't really matter, and it shouldn't really matter. Same with the issue of the four corners of the earth, which is also in Scripture. So of course Sungenis doesn't really have a solid answer about the firmament. How can he, with his globe earth model?

I have scientific reasons for why I believe the earth is flat, but this is my primary theological driver. I agree with those who assert that there's no unequivocal statement in Sacred Scripture that the earth on which we dwell is flat, but Sacred Scripture clearly describes a firmament that is solid enough to serve as a barrier to keep real physical waters from inundating the earth, and that this firmament had gaps in it (described as windows) that allowed the waters in as part of the deluge. Church Fathers were unanimous in their interpretation of the firmament in this manner. I have seen no remotely convincing explanation from the globe earth geocentrists to explain the firmament in their model.

Meg · « **Reply #64 on:** July 06, 2023, 07:38:56 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on July 06, 2023, 07:37:07 AM

I have scientific reasons for why I believe the earth is flat, but this is my primary theological driver. I agree with those who assert that there's no unequivocal statement in Sacred Scripture that the earth on which we dwell is flat, but Sacred Scripture clearly describes a firmament that is solid enough to serve as a barrier to keep real physical waters from inundating the earth, and that this firmament had gaps in it (described as windows) that allowed the waters in as part of the deluge. Church Fathers were unanimous in their interpretation of the firmament in this manner. I have seen no remotely convincing explanation from the globe earth geocentrists to explain the firmament in their model.

Thank you. You've explained it well. The globe earthers want us only to consider the natural aspect of the shape of the earth (since a supernatural aspect is not evident on a globe earth), but we didn't create the earth; God did, and our time on this earth is very short when compared with eternity.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #65 on:** July 06, 2023, 07:39:30 AM »

Quote from: Always on July 05, 2023, 07:50:54 PM

Meg,

Instead of preaching to the choir on this sub-forum about Sungenis have you ever considered actually communicating with him directly? Contrary to popular opinion, he doesn't bite. Robert Sungenis <cairomeo@aol.com>

Some people don't agree with him on FE, but how many of us can say that we took the time and effort to put out a 700 + page book on the subject?!

How many of us were paid by the Kolbe Institute to write such a book and can make a living off our writing? I wrote many pages of critiques of his book here on the forum over time, but some of us have duties of state preventing us from writing 700+ page books.

Sungenis was commissioned up front to write a book to "debunk" Flat Earth, so he had his predetermined conclusion going in, and his bias toward that conclusion is evident throughout his book, as I have demonstrated.

Really, my biggest problem with him, however, was the tone he took against Flat Earthers ... heaping derision and sarcasm on us, and then suddenly making friends (as Pilate and Herod did) with NASA, bolstering NASA's credibility against FEs ... when NASA has nothing but scorn and ridicule for Sungenis and his geocentrism. Most FEs have always supported his work, and yet he turned on us, and not simply by way of disagreeing, but by expressing outright contempt. That's when he crossed a line. I bought his book because he gave an interview in which he spoke respectfully of FE, and so I was willing to have a look. But that went out the window within the first few pages of his book.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #66 on:** July 06, 2023, 07:46:31 AM »

Quote

This flat earth deception page

Why is the scientific/atheist community so scared of flat earth? They call it a "deception" (oh, the fear mongering begins). If someone believes in it, what is the danger, other than they look stupid (according to some)? The REAL danger is that the scientific community would lose authority/integrity/trust if the earth is flat, because it would damage the entire modern 'science story', and their false, anti-catholic, house of cards would come crumbling down. Yeah, science definitely has a reason for opposition.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #67 on:** July 06, 2023, 07:51:42 AM »

I saw a recent video clip from Kolbe, featuring Hugh Owen and Dr. Sungenis, and I was not pleased that the two of them lumped Flat Earthers in with those who hold the Sacred Scriptures to be mere myth and to be subject to error. As I said before, most FEs supported Dr. Sungenis and his work, even if we disagreed with him about the shape of the earth, and I always thought we would agree on all that's most important, the historical and scientific inerrancy of Sacred Scripture. This should be an academic disagreement among friends ... and yet he portrayed FEs as basically enemies of Sacred Scripture.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #68 on:** July 06, 2023, 07:55:52 AM »

Quote

I have scientific reasons for why I believe the earth is flat, but this is my primary theological driver. I agree with those who assert that there's no unequivocal statement in Sacred Scripture that the earth on which we dwell is flat,

Agree. And there is plenty of circuмstantial evidence that the earth is flat, i.e.
1. when satan tempted Christ in the desert, he took Him up to a high mountain where all the kingdoms of the earth could be seen. Not possible on a globe earth.
2. Christ ascended into heaven, in the direction of "up". Not possible on a globe earth.
3. How about when St Luke says the whole world was covered in darkness when Christ was on the cross. How is this possible on a globe earth? How can the sun be darkened on the whole earth, at the same time, on a globe earth? It can't.

44And it was almost the sixth hour: and there was darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. 45And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst. 46And Jesus crying with a loud voice, said: Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit. And saying this, he gave up the ghost. (Luke 23)

Quote

but Sacred Scripture clearly describes a firmament that is solid enough to serve as a barrier to keep real physical waters from inundating the earth, and that this firmament had gaps in it (described as windows) that allowed the waters in as part of the deluge. Church Fathers were unanimous in their interpretation of the firmament in this manner. I have seen no remotely convincing explanation from the globe earth geocentrists to explain the firmament in their model.

Yeah, a firmament is a basic concept of a Catholic earth model. Without a firmament, the model is anti-Scripture and wrong.

Tradman · « **Reply #69 on:** July 06, 2023, 08:36:26 AM »

Francis has continually called people to be "attentive to the cry of mother earth". He also declared that the "wounds inflicted on our mother earth are wounds that also bleed in us". Francis even minted a coin with the Pachamama/Gaia conception of the globe (pictured above), so clearly a false god symbol to promote the message of earth worship, climate change and all it's agendas. These symbols of pagan worship insult Christ and His mother whose very holy birth brought salvation to men. Obviously we're dealing with established pagan idols currently promoted by Francis and his ideology of humanism and creature worship. One model of earth is true and the other is false. Even without the extensive proof from scripture, science, math, reason and the Fathers, the symbolism alone should keep every Christian from embracing the globe.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #70 on:** July 06, 2023, 09:24:41 AM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 06, 2023, 07:55:52 AM

Agree. And there is plenty of circuмstantial evidence that the earth is flat, i.e.
1. when satan tempted Christ in the desert, he took Him up to a high mountain where all the kingdoms of the earth could be seen. Not possible on a globe earth.
2. Christ ascended into heaven, in the direction of "up". Not possible on a globe earth.
3. How about when St Luke says the whole world was covered in darkness when Christ was on the cross. How is this possible on a globe earth? How can the sun be darkened on the whole earth, at the same time, on a globe earth? It can't.

44And it was almost the sixth hour: and there was darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. 45And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst. 46And Jesus crying with a loud voice, said: Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit. And saying this, he gave up the ghost. (Luke 23)

Yeah, a firmament is a basic concept of a Catholic earth model. Without a firmament, the model is anti-Scripture and wrong.

I agree with these, that they imply a flat earth. What does the Ascension mean? Where did Our Lord go on a globe earth? He was ascending of course from the perspective of the Apostles, but descending for those in China? Did he just go above the clouds and then shift into a different dimension, simply making a show of it for the consumption of those watching below? Or did He keep going, floating across the billions of light years they claim the universe extends?

I've read nearly all the known quotations from the Fathers about the shape of the earth, and it can't be denied that they all believed in a solid firmament and believed that there were actual waters (H2O) above the firmament. And this is clearly what Sacred Scripture describes, so this interpretation of the Fathers comes as no surprise. Windows or Portals were opened in the firmament during the Deluge, and that along with waters coming up from the Great Deep caused the Flood.

Always · « **Reply #71 on:** July 06, 2023, 10:20:47 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on July 06, 2023, 07:39:30 AM

How many of us were paid by the Kolbe Institute to write such a book and can make a living off our writing? I wrote many pages of critiques of his book here on the forum over time, but some of us have duties of state preventing us from writing 700+ page books.

Sungenis was commissioned up front to write a book to "debunk" Flat Earth, so he had his predetermined conclusion going in, and his bias toward that conclusion is evident throughout his book, as I have demonstrated.

Really, my biggest problem with him, however, was the tone he took against Flat Earthers ... heaping derision and sarcasm on us, and then suddenly making friends (as Pilate and Herod did) with NASA, bolstering NASA's credibility against FEs ... when NASA has nothing but scorn and ridicule for Sungenis and his geocentrism. Most FEs have always supported his work, and yet he turned on us, and not simply by way of disagreeing, but by expressing outright contempt. That's when he crossed a line. I bought his book because he gave an interview in which he spoke respectfully of FE, and so I was willing to have a look. But that went out the window within the first few pages of his book.

I can understand that you are upset that Sungenis wrote a big book which in your words sets out "to 'debunk' Flat Earth," (a book which many intelligent people agree with and have looked upon with high regard), but not everyone agrees with you on your above narrative. If you want to bolster it, however, you may want to try to actually PROVE it or at the very least try proving it. Contrary to what you may think, I submit that you have certainly not proven it up till now.

As for your own personal duties of state, apparently, they don't prevent you from spending an incredible amount of time over the years on CathInfo.

Meg · « **Reply #72 on:** July 06, 2023, 10:46:33 AM »

Quote from: Tradman on July 06, 2023, 08:36:26 AM

Francis has continually called people to be "attentive to the cry of mother earth". He also declared that the "wounds inflicted on our mother earth are wounds that also bleed in us". Francis even minted a coin with the Pachamama/Gaia conception of the globe (pictured above), so clearly a false god symbol to promote the message of earth worship, climate change and all it's agendas. These symbols of pagan worship insult Christ and His mother whose very holy birth brought salvation to men. Obviously we're dealing with established pagan idols currently promoted by Francis and his ideology of humanism and creature worship. One model of earth is true and the other is false. Even without the extensive proof from scripture, science, math, reason and the Fathers, the symbolism alone should keep every Christian from embracing the globe.

Yes, the globe earth model lends itself to a pagan interpretation quite easily. The flat earth model.....not so much.

Tradman · « **Reply #73 on:** July 06, 2023, 11:33:17 AM »

Quote from: Meg on July 06, 2023, 10:46:33 AM

Yes, the globe earth model lends itself to a pagan interpretation quite easily. The flat earth model.....not so much.

As any reasonable Catholic knows, entire beliefs are represented by symbolism. Constantine won the world for his use of a red cross in war. In our times, the globe, no matter what country you're from, sits in every classroom, somewhere the background of most films, in photos of the elite, on TV shows, in commercials, sold in stores, memorialized in front of state buildings (all thanks to NASA and their fake moon landing cgi graphics) and most people are oblivious that it's an ever-present sign they've been conquered.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #74 on:** July 06, 2023, 11:42:11 AM »

Quote from: Always on July 06, 2023, 10:20:47 AM

I can understand that you are upset that Sungenis wrote a big book which in your words sets out "to 'debunk' Flat Earth," (a book which many intelligent people agree with and have looked upon with high regard), but not everyone agrees with you on your above narrative. If you want to bolster it, however, you may want to try to actually PROVE it or at the very least try proving it. Contrary to what you may think, I submit that you have certainly not proven it up till now.

As for your own personal duties of state, apparently, they don't prevent you from spending an incredible amount of time over the years on CathInfo.

I spent a long time on other threads demonstrating Sungenis' bias and his bad attitude and bad will towards Flat Earthers. It's palpable in his book from page one. In addition, he was commissioned to write the book by the Kolbe Institute, so his conclusion was predetermined, and this shows as he applies confirmation bias to all the "evidence" he cites. I've demonstrated this clearly by citing form his book. I purchased the book because I had seen an interview in which he seemed to take a respectful tone toward Flat Eathers, and so I went in wanting to read the book with an open mind, thinking that I would find there the most solid arguments against Flat Earth. Instead I found a polemical diatribe, ridicule, disparagement, and gross disrespect toward Flat Earthers. And this latest video clip that was posted with him and Hugh Owen had the temerity to lump Flat Earthers in with those who hold Sacred Scripture to contain error and even to be mythical ... and that is a total outrage, and ... quite frankly ... slanderous. You can "submit" whatever you want, but your gratuitous submission is gratuitously rejected.

And you know full well that rattling off posts like this and writing a book are completely different matters. This post took me exactly two minutes to write (I type very quickly), but to apply the discipline necessary to write a properly researched and edited book are an entirely different matter.

Author Topic: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis (Read 55806 times)

Always

Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis

cassini

Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis

Tradman

Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis

Ladislaus

Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis

Meg

Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis

Ladislaus

Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis

Pax Vobis

Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis

Ladislaus

Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis

Pax Vobis

Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis

Tradman

Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis

Ladislaus

Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis

Always

Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis

Meg

Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis

Tradman

Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis

Ladislaus

Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis