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Author Topic: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis  (Read 77756 times)

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Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
« Reply #320 on: July 17, 2023, 05:24:06 PM »
Irrelevant.  He wrote this while investigating the matter, and the Holy Office ruling unequivocally stated that heliocentrism is contrary to Sacred Scriptures. 

According to Ott rulings of the Holy Office are not infallible:

With regard to the doctrinal teaching of the Church it must be well noted that not all the assertions of the Teaching Authority of the Church on questions of Faith and morals are infallible and consequently irrevocable. Only those are infallible which emanate from General Councils representing the whole episcopate, and the Papal Decisions Ex Cathedra (cf. D 1839). The ordinary and usual form of the Papal teaching activity is not infallible. Further, the decisions of the Roman Congregations (Holy Office, Bible Commission) are not infallible. 

Nonsense.  You yourself admitted that neither ruling was infallible and therefore irreformable.  This doesn't mean that one of them wasn't wrong, nor does it lead to sedevacantism.  Certainly the 1616 decision was closer to meeting the notes of infallibility, whereas the 1800 one clearly did not, as it did not teach anything that must be held by the faithful (the main note of infallibility).

If we have to choose only one as right, then it makes more sense to me that the later decision revoked the earlier one.  A pope can change a non-infallible teaching from the past but a pope cannot bind future popes on non-infallible matters.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
« Reply #321 on: July 17, 2023, 09:03:31 PM »
Jaynk, so you’d have to agree that if modern science could prove flat earth, then +Bellarmine would agree as well.


Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
« Reply #322 on: July 18, 2023, 06:22:35 AM »
According to Ott rulings of the Holy Office are not infallible:

With regard to the doctrinal teaching of the Church it must be well noted that not all the assertions of the Teaching Authority of the Church on questions of Faith and morals are infallible and consequently irrevocable. Only those are infallible which emanate from General Councils representing the whole episcopate, and the Papal Decisions Ex Cathedra (cf. D 1839). The ordinary and usual form of the Papal teaching activity is not infallible. Further, the decisions of the Roman Congregations (Holy Office, Bible Commission) are not infallible.

If we have to choose only one as right, then it makes more sense to me that the later decision revoked the earlier one.  A pope can change a non-infallible teaching from the past but a pope cannot bind future popes on non-infallible matters.

All these non-infallible arguments were conjured up by apologists to try to save the Church AFTER 1820 when they were conned into believing the Earth was proven to move in a sun-fixed solar system and made their U-turn. 

‘I found it laid down by such distinguished representatives of the Ultramontane school as Cardenas, La Croix, Zaccaria, and Bouix, that Congregational decrees, confirmed by the Pope and published by his express order, emanate from the Pontiff in his capacity of Head of the Church, and are ex cathedrâ in such sense as to make it infallibly certain that doctrines so propounded as true, are true.’--- Fr W. Roberts.

THE COUNCIL OF TRENT STATES:

‘Furthermore, in order to curb imprudent clever persons, the synod decrees that no one who relies on his own judgment in matters of faith and morals, which pertain to the building up of Christian doctrine, and that no one who distorts the Sacred Scripture according to his own opinions, shall dare to interpret the said Sacred Scripture contrary to that sense which is held by holy Mother Church, whose duty it is to judge regarding the true sense and interpretation of the Holy Scriptures, or even contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers, even though interpretations of this kind were never intended to be brought to light. Let those who shall oppose this be reported by their ordinaries and be punished with the penalties prescribed by law.’--- (Denzinger – 783/786)

On February 24th 1616 the assessment of the Holy Office was declared:

(1) “That the sun is in the centre of the world and altogether immovable by local movement,” was unanimously declared to be “foolish, philosophically absurd, and formally heretical [denial of a revelation by God] inasmuch as it expressly contradicts the declarations of Holy Scripture in many passages, according to the proper meaning of the language used, and the sense in which they have been expounded and understood by the Fathers and theologians.”

Based on the teaching of Trent this particular decision of the Holy Office on the matter of a moving sun around the Earth is infallible.

Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
« Reply #323 on: July 18, 2023, 07:53:11 AM »
St. Robert said that the interpretation of Scripture could change if there were a "true demonstration":

. I say that if there were a true demonstration that the sun is at the center of the world and the earth in the third heaven, and that the sun does not circle the earth but the earth circles the sun, then one would have to proceed with great care in explaining the Scriptures that appear contrary; and say rather that we do not understand them than that what is demonstrated is false.

The Church did change her position on heliocentrism in 1820 and this seems to me like a reasonable way to explain it.  Or perhaps we should just date sedevacantism back to 1800.

I say if there were proof that Jesus Christ did not change water into wine then one would have to doubt the wording of Scripture.

This is the logic that they make of Bellarmine's 1615 letter by omitting the rest of what Bellarmine said. It would mean this letter could eliminate a papal decree defined and declared one year later. It suggests that Bellarmine considered the 1616 decree was provisional and not a proper ruling on formal heresy:

(1) “That the sun is in the centre of the world and altogether immovable by local movement,” was unanimously declared to be “foolish, philosophically absurd, and formally heretical [denial of a revelation by God] inasmuch as it expressly contradicts the declarations of Holy Scripture in many passages, according to the proper meaning of the language used, and the sense in which they have been expounded and understood by the Fathers and theologians.”

if it is never proven that is.

If this is how you believe the Church rules on formal heresies then we can believe anything under the same 'if there were proof of the opposite then the Church will reverse its teaching.' Wow, not even the Protestants taught of that one. 

Offline AnthonyPadua

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Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
« Reply #324 on: July 18, 2023, 08:29:08 AM »
I say if there were proof that Jesus Christ did not change water into wine then one would have to doubt the wording of Scripture.

This is the logic that they make of Bellarmine's 1615 letter by omitting the rest of what Bellarmine said. It would mean this letter could eliminate a papal decree defined and declared one year later. It suggests that Bellarmine considered the 1616 decree was provisional and not a proper ruling on formal heresy:

(1) “That the sun is in the centre of the world and altogether immovable by local movement,” was unanimously declared to be “foolish, philosophically absurd, and formally heretical [denial of a revelation by God] inasmuch as it expressly contradicts the declarations of Holy Scripture in many passages, according to the proper meaning of the language used, and the sense in which they have been expounded and understood by the Fathers and theologians.”

if it is never proven that is.

If this is how you believe the Church rules on formal heresies then we can believe anything under the same 'if there were proof of the opposite then the Church will reverse its teaching.' Wow, not even the Protestants taught of that one.
As I learn more about geocentrism, I have realised that usury and geocentrism have similar issues with the church. Except usury is a divine law and much more clear than geocentrism, even though both have clear teaching from the fathers.