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Author Topic: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis  (Read 12412 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2019, 03:31:25 PM »
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  • Are you sure?  They always taught us in public school that people used to think the Earth was flat, especially at the time of Christopher Columbus.  

    What you got taught in public school was basically anti-Catholic propaganda.  I bet they didn't teach you that the Crusades were justified or give a fair explanation of the Spanish Inquisition either.  

    Quote
    The Spanish Inquisition is often cited in popular literature and history as an example of religious intolerance and repression. Some historians have come to conclude that many of the charges levied against the Inquisition are exaggerated, and are a result of the Black Legend produced by political and religious enemies of Spain, especially England. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition

    There have already been lots of posts in this subforum explaining this in detail.  We know that that this story about belief in flat earth at the time of Columbus is false.  We have a pretty good idea of how and why the myth was spread and even published in school books.  


    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #31 on: May 07, 2019, 12:25:32 PM »
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  • What you got taught in public school was basically anti-Catholic propaganda.  I bet they didn't teach you that the Crusades were justified or give a fair explanation of the Spanish Inquisition either. 

    There have already been lots of posts in this subforum explaining this in detail.  We know that that this story about belief in flat earth at the time of Columbus is false.  We have a pretty good idea of how and why the myth was spread and even published in school books. 

    I am aware that The Spanish Inquisition, which lasted for over four hundred years, was for the legitimate defense of Spain and that the Inquisition strove to be quite fair and the actual numbers of executions and aquitalls reflect that.  I am also aware of English/Protestant propaganda in regards to The Inquisition.  However, I am not aware that The Flat Earth story is the same thing, particularly since The Bible depicts a Flat Earth.  I mean just because Protestants and The English used The Spanish Inquisition to defame Catholics, doesn't mean it didn't occur.  So, I doubt this question is as settled as you say.  However, I am interested in reading other threads on the topic and would apprectiate any suggestions. 
    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #32 on: May 07, 2019, 03:15:32 PM »
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  • I am aware that The Spanish Inquisition, which lasted for over four hundred years, was for the legitimate defense of Spain and that the Inquisition strove to be quite fair and the actual numbers of executions and aquitalls reflect that.  I am also aware of English/Protestant propaganda in regards to The Inquisition.  However, I am not aware that The Flat Earth story is the same thing, particularly since The Bible depicts a Flat Earth.  I mean just because Protestants and The English used The Spanish Inquisition to defame Catholics, doesn't mean it didn't occur.  So, I doubt this question is as settled as you say.  However, I am interested in reading other threads on the topic and would apprectiate any suggestions.
    The claims that Catholics at the time of Columbus believed in a flat earth are even less true than the claims about the Spanish Inquisition.  While Catholics disagreed on the shape of the earth during the Patristic period we had reached a consensus that it is a sphere long before the time of Columbus.  St. Bede wrote an influential work teaching the earth is a sphere around 700 AD and this remained the position of educated Catholics from that point on.  St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Albert the Great taught it.  The Church-run medieval universities taught it.

    The majority of Catholics throughout history have not believed that Scripture teaches the earth is flat.  St. Augustine, around 400 AD, taught the Scripture is silent concerning the shape of the earth. So did St. Basil.  This is the view that spread through the Church and was eventually incorporated in a papal encyclical.  Catholics believed it was a matter to determine through science, and that is what St. Bede, St. Thomas, etc. did.  They all believed that science showed the earth is a sphere.  (Of course, you are free to disagree with them about science, if you want.)

    The idea that Scripture teaches a flat earth comes from Protestants and is not the Church's interpretation of Scripture.  So we are not free to claim that Scripture teaches the earth is flat.

    Here is a post with more detail about Columbus:  https://www.cathinfo.com/the-earth-god-made-flat-earth-geocentrism/did-catholics-before-the-'reformation'-believe-in-fe/msg581137/#msg581137

    And here is a post with more about St. Augustine: https://www.cathinfo.com/the-earth-god-made-flat-earth-geocentrism/the-shape-of-the-earth-is-not-important-to-the-faith/msg612710/#msg612710

    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #33 on: May 10, 2019, 08:08:22 AM »
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  • I was taught in public school that Columbus proved there earth was not flat, but round, and there was ZERO mention made of the Catholic Church at all.

    Offline klasG4e

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #34 on: May 10, 2019, 09:37:28 AM »
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  • I was taught in public school that Columbus proved there earth was not flat, but round, and there was ZERO mention made of the Catholic Church at all.
    It could certainly be argued that public schools like broken clocks are correct twice a day.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #35 on: May 11, 2019, 09:47:36 AM »
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  • It could certainly be argued that public schools like broken clocks are correct twice a day.
    Columbus confirmed a well-known and widely accepted belief. When public schools teach that Columbus proved the world was round, it is too misleading to refer to it as correct.  It was not an idea that needing proving since it has already been accepted by all educated Catholic for centuries.  

    Typically public schools spread the myth that the stupid, flat-earth believing Catholics, due to their religious indoctrination and fear of tyrannical authorities, resisted the insight of clever Columbus that the world is round until he proved it with his journey.  Sometimes the explicitly anti-Catholic parts of this myth are not stated, but they are the underlying assumption to claiming that Columbus proved the world is round.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #36 on: May 13, 2019, 11:03:22 AM »
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  • Another example of anti-Catholic myths likely to be spread in public schools is "poor persecuted Galileo".  Students may end up being taught that Galileo was a brave and brilliant man who resisted against the superstitious tyranny of the Catholic Church.  

    As most of us know, Galileo was unable to get enough science evidence to back up his theory, so he tried using his connections in the Church to get support for it on theological grounds. The Church authorities, however, did not cooperate with his attempt to manipulate them.  They also rightly punished him for making personal interpretations of Scripture, though quite mildly considering the seriousness of the offense.

    Offline klasG4e

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #37 on: May 13, 2019, 12:05:15 PM »
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  • Another example of anti-Catholic myths likely to be spread in public schools is "poor persecuted Galileo".  Students may end up being taught that Galileo was a brave and brilliant man who resisted against the superstitious tyranny of the Catholic Church.  

    As most of us know, Galileo was unable to get enough science evidence to back up his theory, so he tried using his connections in the Church to get support for it on theological grounds. The Church authorities, however, did not cooperate with his attempt to manipulate them.  They also rightly punished him for making personal interpretations of Scripture, though quite mildly considering the seriousness of the offense.
    The book which is considered anathema by public schools and even many Catholic schools:


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #38 on: June 11, 2023, 08:59:53 AM »
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  • So Meg, it is a long story, this atheistic reinterpreting of Scripture, and the hiding of those long forgotten heresies. In 1741 it all began but was finalised in 1820. They said the 1616 decree finding heliocentrism was heresy was infallible, but it applied to a VIOLENT HELIOCENTRISM. The heliocentrism allowed by Pope Pius VII was a NON-VIOLENT heliocentrism "held by modern astronomers.' So, in other words, the heresy of 1616 is still on the books, but the non violent SCIENCE is allowed. In fact the heresy had nothing to do with the earth, moving violently or not, it was to say that the sun is fixed in order to allow the Earth to orbit it. So in fact what the popes in 1820-1835 allowed the flock to believe was formally heretical.
    Great post. I have not read the docuмents in question but if the Popes allowed the faithful to believe heresy how does this impact indefectibility? I am going to assume they didn't teach it in their authority, but rather stood by and allowed it. Is represent the actual situation? Also how should this be viewed when considering that Honorius was condemned for not standing up for the faith?

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #39 on: June 11, 2023, 09:14:25 AM »
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  • Now read the authority of this decree by a Catholic priest who was a heliocentrist.

    http://www.ldolphin.org/geocentricity/Roberts.pdf

    The docuмent is 71 pages long. Can you give me a short version?

    Offline cassini

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #40 on: June 11, 2023, 10:20:13 AM »
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  • The docuмent is 71 pages long. Can you give me a short version?

    On 18 July 1870, Pope Pius IX’s Vatican I defined the dogma of the infallible magisterium of the Roman Pontiff. This dogma clarified when and how a pope is guaranteed freedom from error by God when defining matters of faith and morals. Outside of these conditions a pope is not infallible, and his opinions have no guarantees of divine guidance or correctness. With this dogmatic Council’s ruling came a new crisis of faith arising from the Galileo affair. One by one Vatican I’s teachings on infallibility ostensibly confirmed the authority of Pope Paul V’s 1616 decree and Pope Urban VIII’s ratification of it in 1633 as an irreversible act of the ordinary magisterium.  In 1870, a priest, the Rev. Roberts, based on the Council’s ruling on infallibility and the newly released records of the Galileo case from the secret archives, asserted the 1616 decree and its confirmation in 1633 by Pope Urban VIII, was an infallible act, but that as geocentrism was proven false, this showed the dogma of infallibility itself was proven false or that God was not the Author of the Church’s Bible.

    Fr Roberts, a Catholic priest, who wrote the above in 1870 and republished it again in 1885, was one more unfortunate soul who believed heliocentrism was proven, and was aware that Biblical heliocentrism was conceded to by popes in 1820-35. Alas, this led him to conclude these passages of Scripture could not have been written under the inspiration of God. Heliocentrism then, caused Fr Roberts to reject Vatican I’s dogma of infallibility, another heresy in itself.

    ‘I found it laid down by such distinguished representatives of the Ultramontane school as Cardenas, La Croix, Zaccaria, and Bouix, that Congregational decrees, confirmed by the Pope and published by his express order, emanate from the Pontiff in his capacity of Head of the Church, and are ex cathedrâ in such sense as to make it infallibly certain that doctrines so propounded as true, are true.’--- Fr W. Roberts.

    Father Roberts writes: ‘How in the name of common sense can what a book really signified in the past be altered, or its then truth be saved, if what it then signified was false, by an interpretation the legitimacy of which depends solely on the production of evidence that did not then exist? If for centuries, according to every known sound and received principle of exegesis, and all the cognisable data that could throw light on the matter, the language of Scripture was so expressed on the subject as to forbid its being understood otherwise than geocentrically, if nothing short of overwhelming scientific evidence supporting heliocentrism would justify the opinion that Scripture does not contradict that theory, plainly geocentricism is what the written Word really signifies, and no astronomical discovery can alter the fact. Is it reasonable to say that while a certain sense is not too much opposed to the letter for the author to mean it, its very opposition to the letter makes it un¬lawful for those he addresses to suppose him to mean it? Can we, simply by the laws of the language used, be bound to ascribe a meaning to a writer’s words that he - by those laws under the circuмstances - is not bound to give them? Can we call a writer truthful and trustworthy whose words, by themselves, and according to their one legitimate interpretation, oblige us to believe what is false? Is it, then, less than blasphemy to say that God caused Scripture to be so worded [and phrased] as to bind men to error by the force of its terms? That God demanded faith in His Word, and spoke in what theologians call morally undiscoverable equivocations? Who can fail to see that acceptance of the [Galilean] interpretation of Scripture is tantamount to a confession, that such an interpretation is a mere makeshift, that the dicta of the sacred writers, properly understood, are really at variance with what we now know to be the truth, and that, there¬fore, God could not have been their author? And thus it appears that Rome’s ill-judged attempt [in 1820-35] to save the authority of Holy Scripture was an implicit denial, of her own dogma on inspiration, and a virtual surrender of the whole position into the enemy’s hand. I say an implicit denial of her own dogma on inspiration, for the Vatican Council I has defined it to be a matter of faith that God is the author of the whole of Scripture, and of every part of it—meaning by Scripture all the books enumerated by the Council of Trent as sacred and canonical. Cardinal Franzelin has shown that this doc¬trine obliges us to hold that God not only caused the human writers of the books named to conceive, with a view to writing them down, those truths, and those truths only, that he meant them to communicate; but further, that God so controlled them in their use of lan¬guage, that they chose, and chose infallibly, terms fit to express the divinely intended meaning. In Galileo’s time, when heliocentrism was condemned, the objected passages of Scripture either were, or were not, adapted to express a meaning not at variance with the theory: if they were, the opinion that they were was reasonable and defensible, apart from any scientific evidence whatever that the earth moved; if they were not, the evidence we have that the earth moves is evidence that God was not the author of those passages. Thus, giving the judgment the very meaning apologists insist is the right one [a heliocentric one], it implicitly denies the intrinsic reasonableness of the only exposition that can bring certain assertions of Scripture into harmony with science, and in so doing, it implicitly denies that Scripture in all its parts is the written Word of God. The doctrine, there¬fore, of the decision is not only false, but opposed to what the Roman Church holds to be a dogma of the faith.’

    Fr Roberts’s arguments on the authority of the 1616 ruling:

    ‘It is satisfactory to obtain so frank an acknowledgment from my opponent that the terms of the [1616] condemnation meant “heresy,” and nothing short of it; that the Pope and the ecclesiastical authorities considered, and in effect said, that heliocentricism is a heresy. Now, I submit that, no matter who says it, ‘whether a ‘Pope speaking ex cathedrâ, or a mere layman, whoever says categorically that an opinion is “heresy,” ipso facto says that the contradictory of that opinion has been revealed by God with sufficient certainty to oblige a Catholic to accept it by an act of divine faith. To generate an obligation of faith, it is by no means necessary that the witness to the fact of revelation should claim for his testimony infallible certainty, but only such certainty as will exclude all prudent fear, ne non locutus sit Deus…. It is important to bear in mind that in the case before us the Index was called into action to give effect to the decision of the Congregation of the Holy Office, a Congregation that is in a very special way under Papal direction. The Pope as pope is its president. He is present at its meetings every Thursday. He has in¬formed the Church that he reserves the presidency of this Congregation to himself, because of the intimate connection of its decisions with the preservation of the faith. But if the Pope when he acts as its president never intends to act in the capacity wherein he is divinely secured from making mistakes, how delusive is this assurance! What good does the Church get from his presidency? The Pope not divinely assisted is likely, nay, in a vast number of cases, far more likely, to decide erroneously than some of his Cardinals. And as to his superior authority, the more authoritative an erroneous decision is, the more harm it is likely to do. Either, then, the judgments in question are ex cathedrâ; or the Pope claims to decide doctrinal questions for all Catholics in a capacity in which he is liable to make mistakes, and so the Holy See may be a source of error to the Church Universal; or the Pope’s prerogative of inerrancy be¬longs to him even when he is not speaking ex cathedrâ. Of course there was not, and there could not have been, the remotest intention of making geocentricism a matter of faith by the mere force of a definition; but the question the Copernican controversy raised was whether the doctrine of the sun’s diurnal movement was not already of faith in virtue of the plain state¬ments of Holy Scripture [and judgments of previous popes in early centuries of the Church]. The Roman church, as John De Lugo says, propounds the whole of Holy Scripture, and every part of it, to be received as the Word of God, so that to contradict the express assertion of a sacred writer is not less heresy than to contradict the definition of a general council. To say that Abraham had not two sons is not less heresy than to say that our Lord had not two wills. Unquestionably the sacred writers, in terms, ascribe diurnal movement to the sun; therefore, urged the anti-Copernican theologian, the theory that denies that movement is false and heretical. The conclusion is irresistible, if the language objected is so expressed as to forbid the supposition that not real, but only apparent movement may be meant. And that it is so expressed is what Rome [in 1616] in effect decided, when on the one hand she pronounced the heliocentric theses false, and altogether adverse to the divine Scriptures and on the other condemned as destructive to Catholic truth the advocacy of an opposite opinion. After this, the thoroughly submissive Catholic had no alternative but to recognise the heretical character of the new system; yet the decision plainly proceeded on the assumption that the matter was not open to legitimate doubt before its issue; and therefore, however clearly ex cathedrâ, it would be a judgment of a very different kind from that by which the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was defined. On turning to Marie Dominique Bouix’s Tractatus de Curia Romana we learn that there are three kinds of Congregational decrees; (1) Those that the Pope puts forth in his name after consulting a Congregation; (2) Those that a Congregation puts forth in its own name with the Pope’s confirmation, or express order to publish. (3) Those that a Congregation with the Pope’s sanction puts forth in its own name, but without the Pope’s confirmation or express order to publish. Decrees of the first and second class, we are told, are certainly ex cathedrâ, and to be received with unqualified assent under pain of mortal sin. According to Fr Antonio Zaccaria, a very great authority, even decrees of the last class are not fallible, in the sense that they can ever condemn as erroneous a doctrine which is not so.

    ‘But it is almost as easy to show that the condemnation of Copernicanism was not in this sense a safe judgment, as to show that it was not a true one, to prove that it was a mistake at all. For what was the doctrine of that judgment as it was authoritatively interpreted by Rome? This: that heliocentricism is false and altogether contrary to the divine Scriptures, meaning by the phrase, as the monitum (1620) explained it; “repugnant to the true and Catholic interpretation of Scripture.” In other words, according to the ruling of Pope Urban VIII and the Pontifical Congregation of the Inquisition [in 1633], the decision taught that heliocentrism is a heresy to be abjured, cursed, and detested with the other heresies opposed to the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church. Now, it is as clear as daylight that if all Catholics had embraced this doctrine with unreserved assent, “plene, perfecte, et absolute,” all Catholics would have held it to be of faith that heliocentrism is false, and thus the whole Church would so far have been in error in its faith. But for the whole Church to be in error in any point it holds to be of faith is plainly irreconcilable with the passive infallibility claimed for it by theologians, or even with its claims to be infallible in its ordinary magisterium, for what it believes it will surely teach “credidi propter quod locutus sum.” And apart from this consideration, ob¬viously it must be against the cause of the Christian faith for all Christians to be persuaded that its teachings conflict with, and demand the suppression and complete elimination from thought of, opinions that are on their way to be proved true…..

    W. G. Ward writes: “We fully admit that an unobvious interpretation of the apparently anti-Copernican texts is possible; and indeed is, as we now know, the true one. We admit that our Blessed Lord, when He looked up to heaven and when He spoke of ascending to the Father, did but accommodate Himself to existing physical beliefs. We admit that the Holy Ghost, for wise purposes, as, for instance, that He might not violently interfere with the healthy slow progress of physical science permitted the sacred writers to express themselves in language which was literally true as understood by them, but was figurative in the highest degree as intended by Him. We only say, in accordance with our first proposition, that such an exposition of Scripture would be grossly irreverent, unchristian, and uncatholic, unless there was some overwhelming scientific probability to render it legitimate.” 

    Fr Roberts answers Ward: ‘According to these words of Ward’s, the Copernican inter¬pretation of Scripture, the true one [no, never proven true], the one intended by God, is intrinsically considered non-reasonable. It is inadmissible on its own merits, and by every sound canon of exegesis. It is so violently opposed to the general drift and implication of Scripture, and to the obvious meaning of particular texts, that nothing short of an express assurance from the Author of Scripture Himself that He really did mean [a fixed sun] would render it legitimate. Such an assurance having been given in these latter days through the conclusions [no, false theories] of science, the unobvious and forced character of the exposition is no longer any bar to its reception; on the principle that a man may interpret his own words as he pleases. “God,” says Dr. Ward, “surely has the right to interpret His own Word, for you would not deny this right to an ordinary mortal” (Authority of Doctrinal Decisions, p. 143). But in Galileo’s time God had given no hint that He had meant anything so extremely improbable. Heliocentrism [a long-condemned heresy] at that time was “a random scientific conjecture,” with “no leg to stand on.”  The ecclesiastical authorities were therefore only doing their duty in declaring it was altogether contrary to Scripture.
    Desperate indeed must be the cause that stands in need of such monstrous doctrine [That God allowed a heretical wording in Scripture]. Disregarding for the present the grotesque misrepresentation of the scientific status of heliocentrism in Galileo’s time, who admits for a moment that an ordinary mortal may deter¬mine retrospectively the meaning of his words, and be quit of responsibility for their deceptive effect, on the strength of a subsequent declaration, that he meant the very reverse of what he said or wrote? So far as the Bible professes to teach, and contains assertions that demand belief, assuredly it cannot differ from all other books in this, that its meaning must not be held to depend on the, so to say, objective significance of its language, but on the reserved and unexpressed intention of its author. How in the name of common sense can what a book really signified in the past be altered, or its then truth be saved, if what it then signified was false, by an inter¬pretation the legitimacy of which depends solely on the production of evidence that did not then exist? If for centuries, according to every known sound and received principle of exegesis, and all the cognisable data that could throw light on the matter, the language of Scripture was so expressed on the subject as to forbid its being understood otherwise than geocentrically, if nothing short of overwhelming scientific evidence in favour of heliocentrism would justify the opinion that Scripture does not contradict the theory, plainly geocentricism is what the written Word really signifies, and no astronomical discovery can alter the fact. Is it reasonable to say that while a certain sense is not too much opposed to the letter for the author to mean it, its very opposition to the letter makes it un¬lawful for those he addresses to suppose him to mean it? Can we, simply by the laws of the language used, be bound to ascribe a meaning to a writer’s words he, by those laws under the circuмstances, is not bound to give them? Can we call a writer truthful and trustworthy whose words, by themselves, and according to their one legitimate interpretation, oblige us to believe what is false? Is it, then, less than blasphemy to say that God caused Scripture to be so worded as to bind men to error by the force of its terms? That He demanded faith in His Word, and spoke in what theologians call morally undiscoverable equivocations? Who can fail to see that estimate of the Copernican interpretation of Scripture is tantamount to a confession, that such an interpretation is a mere makeshift, that the dicta of the sacred writers, properly understood, are really at variance with what we now [think we] know to be the truth, and that, there¬fore, God could not have been their author? And thus it appears that Rome’s ill-judged attempt to save the authority of Holy Scripture was an implicit denial, of her own dogma on inspiration, and a virtual surrender of the whole position into the enemy’s hand. I say an implicit denial of her own dogma on inspira¬tion, for the Vatican Council I has defined it to be a matter of faith that God is the author of the whole of Scripture, and of every part of it—meaning by Scripture all the books enumerated by the Council of Trent as sacred and canonical. The Jesuit Cardinal Franzelin (1816-1886) [author of many books on theological questions] has shown that this doc¬trine obliges us to hold that God not only caused the human writers of the books named to conceive, with a view to writing them down, those truths, and those truths only, that he meant them to communicate; but further, that God so controlled them in their use of language, that they choose, and choose infallibly, terms fit to express the divinely intended meaning. In Galileo’s time, when Copernicanism was condemned, the objected passages of Scripture either were, or were not, adapted to express a meaning not at variance with the theory: if they were, the opinion that they were was reasonable and defensible, apart from any scientific evidence whatever that the Earth moved; if they were not, the evidence we have that the Earth moves is evidence that God was not the author of those passages. Thus, giving the judgment the very meaning apologists insist is the right one, it implicitly denies the intrinsic reasonableness of the only exposition that can bring certain assertions of Scripture into harmony with science, and in so doing, it implicitly denies. The doctrine, there¬fore, of the decision is not only false, but opposed to what the Church holds to be a dogma of the faith.’--- pp.39-44.

    ‘Moreover, the judgment of Rome must outweigh the judgment of individual theologians; and the point I insist on is, that the minimising interpretation of the decree, the interpretation advocated by Dr. Ward and the apologists, is precisely the one that stands empha¬tically repudiated and denounced by a Pontifical Congregation as involving the gravest error. Before the Inquisitorial sentence of 1633 it might perhaps have been plausibly urged that the decree of the Index was only disciplinary in its scope, that the censures “false and repugnant to Scripture” belonged to the preamble, and not to the decree itself. But to say this in the face of the sentence on Galileo is to say that Rome did not know her own mind, and could not interpret aright her own decisions. The minimising and apologetic view of the decree is, that the Church did not thereby mean to say that it is quite certain, but only highly probable, that helio¬centricism is contrary to Scripture; and that she did not intend to deny that the progress of science might change the theological aspect of things. So understood, it is as clear as the sun at noonday that the decision could not, seventeen years afterwards, have shown that it was impossible for the censured opinion to be in any way probable. But this is the very thing Rome, in 1633, declared the decision did show, and pronounced it a most grave error to suppose that it did not – “since in no manner can an opinion be probable that has already been declared and defined to be contrary to the divine Scripture.” And it must be noted that the Congregation is expressly referring to the kind of probability Galileo claimed for Copernicanism in Galileo’s Dialogo, intrinsic probability based on scientific considerations. Did the Congregation mean to say, “Since this opinion has been pronounced contrary to Scripture by a judgment that was not meant to be final, a judgment possibly erroneous, a judgment open to correction by the progress of science, it involves the gravest error to suppose that it can in any manner, even scientifically, be probable.” Yet this is just the non¬sense it did mean to talk, if it did not mean its state¬ment in a sense that excludes the apologist’s version of the decree. And in the actual sentence the Congre¬gation showed its mind still more plainly, for it implicitly classed the decision with those definitions of the Church, the truth of which it would be heresy to challenge: “We say, pronounce, and declare that you, the said Galileo, on account of the things proved against you by docuмentary evidence, and which have been confessed by you as aforesaid, have rendered yourself to this Holy Office vehemently suspected of heresy, that is, that you believed and held a doctrine false and contrary to the sacred and divine Scriptures, to wit, that the sun is in the centre of the universe, and that it does not move from east to west, and that the earth moves and is not in the centre of the universe; and that an opinion can be held and defended as probable after it has been declared and defined to be contrary to Holy Scripture.” Such language was, of course, ludicrously inapplicable to the case, unless the decision ought to have been taken as the Church’s judgment, and as absolutely true.’ 

      ‘Is it reasonable to say that while a certain sense is not too much opposed to the letter for the author to mean it, its very opposition to the letter [from a moving sun to a fixed sun] makes it un¬lawful for those he addresses to suppose him to mean it? Can we call a writer truthful and trustworthy whose words, by themselves, and according to their one legitimate interpretation, oblige us to believe what is false? Is it, then, less than blasphemy to say that God caused Scripture to be so worded as to bind men to error by the force of its terms? That He demanded faith in His Word, and spoke in what theologians call morally undiscoverable equivocations? Who can fail to see that estimate of the [fixed-sun] interpretation of Scripture is tantamount to a confession, that such an interpretation is a mere makeshift, that the dicta of the sacred writers, properly understood, are really at variance with what we now know [claim] to be the truth, there¬fore, God could not have been their author?’- Fr Roberts, Pontifical D.
       
    At the end of his booklet, Fr Roberts summarises the situation that prevailed within Catholicism in the wake of the infamous acceptance of a ‘non-violent’ heliocentrism, consequences that all who continue to defend to this day must subscribe to, ramifications that no true Catholic could possibly accept:

    ‘I will now sum up the conclusions which the Galileo case seems to me to teach in direct opposi¬tion to doctrine that has been authoritatively inculcated in Rome: —
    1. Rome, i.e. a Pontifical Congregation acting under the Pope’s order, may put forth a decision that is neither true nor safe.
    2. Decrees confirmed by, and virtually included in a Bull addressed to the Universal Church, may be not only truly false, but theologically considered, danger¬ous, i.e. calculated to prejudice the cause of religion, and compromise the safety of a portion of the deposit com¬mitted to the Church’s keeping. In other words, a Pope [Alexander VII in 1664], in and by a Bull addressed to the whole Church, may confirm and approve, with Apostolic authority, deci¬sions that are false and perilous to the faith.
    3. Decrees of the Apostolic See and of Pontifical Con¬gregations may be calculated to impede the free progress of Science.
    4. The Pope’s infallibility is no guarantee that he may not use his supreme authority to indoctrinate the Church with erroneous opinions, through the medium of Congregations he has erected to assist him in protecting the Church from error.
    5. The Pope, through the medium of a Pontifical Congregation, may require, under pain of excommunica¬tion, individual Catholics to yield an absolute assent to false, unsound, and dangerous propositions. In other words, the Pope, acting as Supreme Judge of the faithful, may, in dealing with individuals, make the rejection of what is in fact the truth, a condition of communion with the Holy See.
    6. It does not follow, from the Church’s having been informed that the Pope has ordered a Catholic to abjure an opinion as a heresy, that it is not true and sound.
    7. The true interpretation of our Lord’s promises to St. Peter permits us to say that a Pope may, even when acting officially, confirm his brethren the Cardinals, and through them the rest of the Church, in an error as to what is matter of faith.
    8. It is not always for the good of the Church that Catholics should submit themselves fully, perfectly, and absolutely, i.e. should yield a full assent, to the decisions of Pontifical Congregations, even when the Pope has con¬firmed such decisions with his supreme authority, and ordered them published.
    Are not all these propositions irreconcilable with Ultramontane principles? If so, can it be denied that those principles are as false as it is true that the Earth moves?’


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
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  • On 18 July 1870, Pope Pius IX’s Vatican I defined the dogma of the infallible magisterium of the Roman Pontiff. This dogma clarified when and how a pope is guaranteed freedom from error by God when defining matters of faith and morals. Outside of these conditions a pope is not infallible, and his opinions have no guarantees of divine guidance or correctness. With this dogmatic Council’s ruling came a new crisis of faith arising from the Galileo affair. One by one Vatican I’s teachings on infallibility ostensibly confirmed the authority of Pope Paul V’s 1616 decree and Pope Urban VIII’s ratification of it in 1633 as an irreversible act of the ordinary magisterium.  In 1870, a priest, the Rev. Roberts, based on the Council’s ruling on infallibility and the newly released records of the Galileo case from the secret archives, asserted the 1616 decree and its confirmation in 1633 by Pope Urban VIII, was an infallible act, but that as geocentrism was proven false, this showed the dogma of infallibility itself was proven false or that God was not the Author of the Church’s Bible.

    Fr Roberts, a Catholic priest, who wrote the above in 1870 and republished it again in 1885, was one more unfortunate soul who believed heliocentrism was proven, and was aware that Biblical heliocentrism was conceded to by popes in 1820-35. Alas, this led him to conclude these passages of Scripture could not have been written under the inspiration of God. Heliocentrism then, caused Fr Roberts to reject Vatican I’s dogma of infallibility, another heresy in itself.

    ‘I found it laid down by such distinguished representatives of the Ultramontane school as Cardenas, La Croix, Zaccaria, and Bouix, that Congregational decrees, confirmed by the Pope and published by his express order, emanate from the Pontiff in his capacity of Head of the Church, and are ex cathedrâ in such sense as to make it infallibly certain that doctrines so propounded as true, are true.’--- Fr W. Roberts.

    Father Roberts writes: ‘How in the name of common sense can what a book really signified in the past be altered, or its then truth be saved, if what it then signified was false, by an interpretation the legitimacy of which depends solely on the production of evidence that did not then exist? If for centuries, according to every known sound and received principle of exegesis, and all the cognisable data that could throw light on the matter, the language of Scripture was so expressed on the subject as to forbid its being understood otherwise than geocentrically, if nothing short of overwhelming scientific evidence supporting heliocentrism would justify the opinion that Scripture does not contradict that theory, plainly geocentricism is what the written Word really signifies, and no astronomical discovery can alter the fact. Is it reasonable to say that while a certain sense is not too much opposed to the letter for the author to mean it, its very opposition to the letter makes it un¬lawful for those he addresses to suppose him to mean it? Can we, simply by the laws of the language used, be bound to ascribe a meaning to a writer’s words that he - by those laws under the circuмstances - is not bound to give them? Can we call a writer truthful and trustworthy whose words, by themselves, and according to their one legitimate interpretation, oblige us to believe what is false? Is it, then, less than blasphemy to say that God caused Scripture to be so worded [and phrased] as to bind men to error by the force of its terms? That God demanded faith in His Word, and spoke in what theologians call morally undiscoverable equivocations? Who can fail to see that acceptance of the [Galilean] interpretation of Scripture is tantamount to a confession, that such an interpretation is a mere makeshift, that the dicta of the sacred writers, properly understood, are really at variance with what we now know to be the truth, and that, there¬fore, God could not have been their author? And thus it appears that Rome’s ill-judged attempt [in 1820-35] to save the authority of Holy Scripture was an implicit denial, of her own dogma on inspiration, and a virtual surrender of the whole position into the enemy’s hand. I say an implicit denial of her own dogma on inspiration, for the Vatican Council I has defined it to be a matter of faith that God is the author of the whole of Scripture, and of every part of it—meaning by Scripture all the books enumerated by the Council of Trent as sacred and canonical. Cardinal Franzelin has shown that this doc¬trine obliges us to hold that God not only caused the human writers of the books named to conceive, with a view to writing them down, those truths, and those truths only, that he meant them to communicate; but further, that God so controlled them in their use of lan¬guage, that they chose, and chose infallibly, terms fit to express the divinely intended meaning. In Galileo’s time, when heliocentrism was condemned, the objected passages of Scripture either were, or were not, adapted to express a meaning not at variance with the theory: if they were, the opinion that they were was reasonable and defensible, apart from any scientific evidence whatever that the earth moved; if they were not, the evidence we have that the earth moves is evidence that God was not the author of those passages. Thus, giving the judgment the very meaning apologists insist is the right one [a heliocentric one], it implicitly denies the intrinsic reasonableness of the only exposition that can bring certain assertions of Scripture into harmony with science, and in so doing, it implicitly denies that Scripture in all its parts is the written Word of God. The doctrine, there¬fore, of the decision is not only false, but opposed to what the Roman Church holds to be a dogma of the faith.’

    Fr Roberts’s arguments on the authority of the 1616 ruling:

    ‘It is satisfactory to obtain so frank an acknowledgment from my opponent that the terms of the [1616] condemnation meant “heresy,” and nothing short of it; that the Pope and the ecclesiastical authorities considered, and in effect said, that heliocentricism is a heresy. Now, I submit that, no matter who says it, ‘whether a ‘Pope speaking ex cathedrâ, or a mere layman, whoever says categorically that an opinion is “heresy,” ipso facto says that the contradictory of that opinion has been revealed by God with sufficient certainty to oblige a Catholic to accept it by an act of divine faith. To generate an obligation of faith, it is by no means necessary that the witness to the fact of revelation should claim for his testimony infallible certainty, but only such certainty as will exclude all prudent fear, ne non locutus sit Deus…. It is important to bear in mind that in the case before us the Index was called into action to give effect to the decision of the Congregation of the Holy Office, a Congregation that is in a very special way under Papal direction. The Pope as pope is its president. He is present at its meetings every Thursday. He has in¬formed the Church that he reserves the presidency of this Congregation to himself, because of the intimate connection of its decisions with the preservation of the faith. But if the Pope when he acts as its president never intends to act in the capacity wherein he is divinely secured from making mistakes, how delusive is this assurance! What good does the Church get from his presidency? The Pope not divinely assisted is likely, nay, in a vast number of cases, far more likely, to decide erroneously than some of his Cardinals. And as to his superior authority, the more authoritative an erroneous decision is, the more harm it is likely to do. Either, then, the judgments in question are ex cathedrâ; or the Pope claims to decide doctrinal questions for all Catholics in a capacity in which he is liable to make mistakes, and so the Holy See may be a source of error to the Church Universal; or the Pope’s prerogative of inerrancy be¬longs to him even when he is not speaking ex cathedrâ. Of course there was not, and there could not have been, the remotest intention of making geocentricism a matter of faith by the mere force of a definition; but the question the Copernican controversy raised was whether the doctrine of the sun’s diurnal movement was not already of faith in virtue of the plain state¬ments of Holy Scripture [and judgments of previous popes in early centuries of the Church]. The Roman church, as John De Lugo says, propounds the whole of Holy Scripture, and every part of it, to be received as the Word of God, so that to contradict the express assertion of a sacred writer is not less heresy than to contradict the definition of a general council. To say that Abraham had not two sons is not less heresy than to say that our Lord had not two wills. Unquestionably the sacred writers, in terms, ascribe diurnal movement to the sun; therefore, urged the anti-Copernican theologian, the theory that denies that movement is false and heretical. The conclusion is irresistible, if the language objected is so expressed as to forbid the supposition that not real, but only apparent movement may be meant. And that it is so expressed is what Rome [in 1616] in effect decided, when on the one hand she pronounced the heliocentric theses false, and altogether adverse to the divine Scriptures and on the other condemned as destructive to Catholic truth the advocacy of an opposite opinion. After this, the thoroughly submissive Catholic had no alternative but to recognise the heretical character of the new system; yet the decision plainly proceeded on the assumption that the matter was not open to legitimate doubt before its issue; and therefore, however clearly ex cathedrâ, it would be a judgment of a very different kind from that by which the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was defined. On turning to Marie Dominique Bouix’s Tractatus de Curia Romana we learn that there are three kinds of Congregational decrees; (1) Those that the Pope puts forth in his name after consulting a Congregation; (2) Those that a Congregation puts forth in its own name with the Pope’s confirmation, or express order to publish. (3) Those that a Congregation with the Pope’s sanction puts forth in its own name, but without the Pope’s confirmation or express order to publish. Decrees of the first and second class, we are told, are certainly ex cathedrâ, and to be received with unqualified assent under pain of mortal sin. According to Fr Antonio Zaccaria, a very great authority, even decrees of the last class are not fallible, in the sense that they can ever condemn as erroneous a doctrine which is not so.

    ‘But it is almost as easy to show that the condemnation of Copernicanism was not in this sense a safe judgment, as to show that it was not a true one, to prove that it was a mistake at all. For what was the doctrine of that judgment as it was authoritatively interpreted by Rome? This: that heliocentricism is false and altogether contrary to the divine Scriptures, meaning by the phrase, as the monitum (1620) explained it; “repugnant to the true and Catholic interpretation of Scripture.” In other words, according to the ruling of Pope Urban VIII and the Pontifical Congregation of the Inquisition [in 1633], the decision taught that heliocentrism is a heresy to be abjured, cursed, and detested with the other heresies opposed to the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church. Now, it is as clear as daylight that if all Catholics had embraced this doctrine with unreserved assent, “plene, perfecte, et absolute,” all Catholics would have held it to be of faith that heliocentrism is false, and thus the whole Church would so far have been in error in its faith. But for the whole Church to be in error in any point it holds to be of faith is plainly irreconcilable with the passive infallibility claimed for it by theologians, or even with its claims to be infallible in its ordinary magisterium, for what it believes it will surely teach “credidi propter quod locutus sum.” And apart from this consideration, ob¬viously it must be against the cause of the Christian faith for all Christians to be persuaded that its teachings conflict with, and demand the suppression and complete elimination from thought of, opinions that are on their way to be proved true…..

    W. G. Ward writes: “We fully admit that an unobvious interpretation of the apparently anti-Copernican texts is possible; and indeed is, as we now know, the true one. We admit that our Blessed Lord, when He looked up to heaven and when He spoke of ascending to the Father, did but accommodate Himself to existing physical beliefs. We admit that the Holy Ghost, for wise purposes, as, for instance, that He might not violently interfere with the healthy slow progress of physical science permitted the sacred writers to express themselves in language which was literally true as understood by them, but was figurative in the highest degree as intended by Him. We only say, in accordance with our first proposition, that such an exposition of Scripture would be grossly irreverent, unchristian, and uncatholic, unless there was some overwhelming scientific probability to render it legitimate.” 

    Fr Roberts answers Ward: ‘According to these words of Ward’s, the Copernican inter¬pretation of Scripture, the true one [no, never proven true], the one intended by God, is intrinsically considered non-reasonable. It is inadmissible on its own merits, and by every sound canon of exegesis. It is so violently opposed to the general drift and implication of Scripture, and to the obvious meaning of particular texts, that nothing short of an express assurance from the Author of Scripture Himself that He really did mean [a fixed sun] would render it legitimate. Such an assurance having been given in these latter days through the conclusions [no, false theories] of science, the unobvious and forced character of the exposition is no longer any bar to its reception; on the principle that a man may interpret his own words as he pleases. “God,” says Dr. Ward, “surely has the right to interpret His own Word, for you would not deny this right to an ordinary mortal” (Authority of Doctrinal Decisions, p. 143). But in Galileo’s time God had given no hint that He had meant anything so extremely improbable. Heliocentrism [a long-condemned heresy] at that time was “a random scientific conjecture,” with “no leg to stand on.”  The ecclesiastical authorities were therefore only doing their duty in declaring it was altogether contrary to Scripture.
    Desperate indeed must be the cause that stands in need of such monstrous doctrine [That God allowed a heretical wording in Scripture]. Disregarding for the present the grotesque misrepresentation of the scientific status of heliocentrism in Galileo’s time, who admits for a moment that an ordinary mortal may deter¬mine retrospectively the meaning of his words, and be quit of responsibility for their deceptive effect, on the strength of a subsequent declaration, that he meant the very reverse of what he said or wrote? So far as the Bible professes to teach, and contains assertions that demand belief, assuredly it cannot differ from all other books in this, that its meaning must not be held to depend on the, so to say, objective significance of its language, but on the reserved and unexpressed intention of its author. How in the name of common sense can what a book really signified in the past be altered, or its then truth be saved, if what it then signified was false, by an inter¬pretation the legitimacy of which depends solely on the production of evidence that did not then exist? If for centuries, according to every known sound and received principle of exegesis, and all the cognisable data that could throw light on the matter, the language of Scripture was so expressed on the subject as to forbid its being understood otherwise than geocentrically, if nothing short of overwhelming scientific evidence in favour of heliocentrism would justify the opinion that Scripture does not contradict the theory, plainly geocentricism is what the written Word really signifies, and no astronomical discovery can alter the fact. Is it reasonable to say that while a certain sense is not too much opposed to the letter for the author to mean it, its very opposition to the letter makes it un¬lawful for those he addresses to suppose him to mean it? Can we, simply by the laws of the language used, be bound to ascribe a meaning to a writer’s words he, by those laws under the circuмstances, is not bound to give them? Can we call a writer truthful and trustworthy whose words, by themselves, and according to their one legitimate interpretation, oblige us to believe what is false? Is it, then, less than blasphemy to say that God caused Scripture to be so worded as to bind men to error by the force of its terms? That He demanded faith in His Word, and spoke in what theologians call morally undiscoverable equivocations? Who can fail to see that estimate of the Copernican interpretation of Scripture is tantamount to a confession, that such an interpretation is a mere makeshift, that the dicta of the sacred writers, properly understood, are really at variance with what we now [think we] know to be the truth, and that, there¬fore, God could not have been their author? And thus it appears that Rome’s ill-judged attempt to save the authority of Holy Scripture was an implicit denial, of her own dogma on inspiration, and a virtual surrender of the whole position into the enemy’s hand. I say an implicit denial of her own dogma on inspira¬tion, for the Vatican Council I has defined it to be a matter of faith that God is the author of the whole of Scripture, and of every part of it—meaning by Scripture all the books enumerated by the Council of Trent as sacred and canonical. The Jesuit Cardinal Franzelin (1816-1886) [author of many books on theological questions] has shown that this doc¬trine obliges us to hold that God not only caused the human writers of the books named to conceive, with a view to writing them down, those truths, and those truths only, that he meant them to communicate; but further, that God so controlled them in their use of language, that they choose, and choose infallibly, terms fit to express the divinely intended meaning. In Galileo’s time, when Copernicanism was condemned, the objected passages of Scripture either were, or were not, adapted to express a meaning not at variance with the theory: if they were, the opinion that they were was reasonable and defensible, apart from any scientific evidence whatever that the Earth moved; if they were not, the evidence we have that the Earth moves is evidence that God was not the author of those passages. Thus, giving the judgment the very meaning apologists insist is the right one, it implicitly denies the intrinsic reasonableness of the only exposition that can bring certain assertions of Scripture into harmony with science, and in so doing, it implicitly denies. The doctrine, there¬fore, of the decision is not only false, but opposed to what the Church holds to be a dogma of the faith.’--- pp.39-44.

    ‘Moreover, the judgment of Rome must outweigh the judgment of individual theologians; and the point I insist on is, that the minimising interpretation of the decree, the interpretation advocated by Dr. Ward and the apologists, is precisely the one that stands empha¬tically repudiated and denounced by a Pontifical Congregation as involving the gravest error. Before the Inquisitorial sentence of 1633 it might perhaps have been plausibly urged that the decree of the Index was only disciplinary in its scope, that the censures “false and repugnant to Scripture” belonged to the preamble, and not to the decree itself. But to say this in the face of the sentence on Galileo is to say that Rome did not know her own mind, and could not interpret aright her own decisions. The minimising and apologetic view of the decree is, that the Church did not thereby mean to say that it is quite certain, but only highly probable, that helio¬centricism is contrary to Scripture; and that she did not intend to deny that the progress of science might change the theological aspect of things. So understood, it is as clear as the sun at noonday that the decision could not, seventeen years afterwards, have shown that it was impossible for the censured opinion to be in any way probable. But this is the very thing Rome, in 1633, declared the decision did show, and pronounced it a most grave error to suppose that it did not – “since in no manner can an opinion be probable that has already been declared and defined to be contrary to the divine Scripture.” And it must be noted that the Congregation is expressly referring to the kind of probability Galileo claimed for Copernicanism in Galileo’s Dialogo, intrinsic probability based on scientific considerations. Did the Congregation mean to say, “Since this opinion has been pronounced contrary to Scripture by a judgment that was not meant to be final, a judgment possibly erroneous, a judgment open to correction by the progress of science, it involves the gravest error to suppose that it can in any manner, even scientifically, be probable.” Yet this is just the non¬sense it did mean to talk, if it did not mean its state¬ment in a sense that excludes the apologist’s version of the decree. And in the actual sentence the Congre¬gation showed its mind still more plainly, for it implicitly classed the decision with those definitions of the Church, the truth of which it would be heresy to challenge: “We say, pronounce, and declare that you, the said Galileo, on account of the things proved against you by docuмentary evidence, and which have been confessed by you as aforesaid, have rendered yourself to this Holy Office vehemently suspected of heresy, that is, that you believed and held a doctrine false and contrary to the sacred and divine Scriptures, to wit, that the sun is in the centre of the universe, and that it does not move from east to west, and that the earth moves and is not in the centre of the universe; and that an opinion can be held and defended as probable after it has been declared and defined to be contrary to Holy Scripture.” Such language was, of course, ludicrously inapplicable to the case, unless the decision ought to have been taken as the Church’s judgment, and as absolutely true.’ 

      ‘Is it reasonable to say that while a certain sense is not too much opposed to the letter for the author to mean it, its very opposition to the letter [from a moving sun to a fixed sun] makes it un¬lawful for those he addresses to suppose him to mean it? Can we call a writer truthful and trustworthy whose words, by themselves, and according to their one legitimate interpretation, oblige us to believe what is false? Is it, then, less than blasphemy to say that God caused Scripture to be so worded as to bind men to error by the force of its terms? That He demanded faith in His Word, and spoke in what theologians call morally undiscoverable equivocations? Who can fail to see that estimate of the [fixed-sun] interpretation of Scripture is tantamount to a confession, that such an interpretation is a mere makeshift, that the dicta of the sacred writers, properly understood, are really at variance with what we now know [claim] to be the truth, there¬fore, God could not have been their author?’- Fr Roberts, Pontifical D.
       
    At the end of his booklet, Fr Roberts summarises the situation that prevailed within Catholicism in the wake of the infamous acceptance of a ‘non-violent’ heliocentrism, consequences that all who continue to defend to this day must subscribe to, ramifications that no true Catholic could possibly accept:

    ‘I will now sum up the conclusions which the Galileo case seems to me to teach in direct opposi¬tion to doctrine that has been authoritatively inculcated in Rome: —
    1. Rome, i.e. a Pontifical Congregation acting under the Pope’s order, may put forth a decision that is neither true nor safe.
    2. Decrees confirmed by, and virtually included in a Bull addressed to the Universal Church, may be not only truly false, but theologically considered, danger¬ous, i.e. calculated to prejudice the cause of religion, and compromise the safety of a portion of the deposit com¬mitted to the Church’s keeping. In other words, a Pope [Alexander VII in 1664], in and by a Bull addressed to the whole Church, may confirm and approve, with Apostolic authority, deci¬sions that are false and perilous to the faith.
    3. Decrees of the Apostolic See and of Pontifical Con¬gregations may be calculated to impede the free progress of Science.
    4. The Pope’s infallibility is no guarantee that he may not use his supreme authority to indoctrinate the Church with erroneous opinions, through the medium of Congregations he has erected to assist him in protecting the Church from error.
    5. The Pope, through the medium of a Pontifical Congregation, may require, under pain of excommunica¬tion, individual Catholics to yield an absolute assent to false, unsound, and dangerous propositions. In other words, the Pope, acting as Supreme Judge of the faithful, may, in dealing with individuals, make the rejection of what is in fact the truth, a condition of communion with the Holy See.
    6. It does not follow, from the Church’s having been informed that the Pope has ordered a Catholic to abjure an opinion as a heresy, that it is not true and sound.
    7. The true interpretation of our Lord’s promises to St. Peter permits us to say that a Pope may, even when acting officially, confirm his brethren the Cardinals, and through them the rest of the Church, in an error as to what is matter of faith.
    8. It is not always for the good of the Church that Catholics should submit themselves fully, perfectly, and absolutely, i.e. should yield a full assent, to the decisions of Pontifical Congregations, even when the Pope has con¬firmed such decisions with his supreme authority, and ordered them published.
    Are not all these propositions irreconcilable with Ultramontane principles? If so, can it be denied that those principles are as false as it is true that the Earth moves?’
    Still too long so I just read the end. Basically this priests believes in (((science))) and not God.

    And the bull by Pope Alexander is infallible?

    Offline cassini

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #42 on: June 12, 2023, 05:08:09 AM »
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  • Still too long so I just read the end. Basically this priests believes in (((science))) and not God.

    And the bull by Pope Alexander is infallible?

    It is very difficult to understand all that is involved in the GvH without reading more than you are willing to do Anthony. Here is a summary of 6000 years.

    Heliocentrism is a universal system that replaced the God of Adam and Eve with a pagan god. Even Catholicism teaches God can be known by the things that He made. Thus the sky showed the ancient races after Adam and Eve that God exists. It was then Satan convinced most that the sun, that sustains the Earth with life-giving means, to hold the sun as their god.

    The word Helios for the sun comes from Helios a sun god, the son of Hyperion and Theia, thus the terms heliocentrism and heliolatry. In the Holy Scriptures (3 Kings 16:31-33) we read of Baal, Bal or Bel, the sun god of the Phoenicians, whose worship was characterised by the most scandalously impure rites. Then there were the sun gods of the Canaanites and Mithraists of Persia. Sun worshipping is also condemned in Wisdom: 13:2  and 4 kings

    With the advent of Catholicism, this heliocentrism was condemned by churchmen for centuries until it went underground in the writings of the Gnostics (who hated Genesis) etc., waiting for a time when the world would embrace heliocentrism once again.

    On May 29, 1453, the ancient city of Byzantium fell to the Ottoman Turks. Its libraries were raided and ancient books in them became available for the first time in a thousand years. From these stores came the manuscripts purchased by Leonardo da Pistoia for the enormously wealthy and influential Cosimo de’ Medici (1389-1464).  The docuмents were said to contain divine wisdom, knowledge and teachings that came directly from Thoth, the wisdom god of the post-diluvian Egyptians, known to the Greeks as Hermēs Trismegistus (Hermēs Thrice Great), supposedly the greatest philosopher, priest and king who ever lived. Soon, the books were reprinted and spread everywhere.

    Copernicus was the first to introduce heliocentrism in his book de rev. In Book One, Copernicus makes a further reference but this time to Hermēs: 

    In the centre of all rests the sun. For who would place this lamp of a very beautiful temple in another or better place than this whereupon it can illuminate everything at the same time. In fact, not unhappily do some call it the lantern, others the mind and still others, the pilot of the world. Hermēs Trismegistus calls it a “visible god,” Sophocles’s Electra, “that which gazes upon all things.” And the sun, as if resting on a kingly throne, governs the family of stars which wheel around.’ --- De rev.

    So, this time, the pagan anti-Trinity God heliocentrism came back as supposedly true scientific astronomy. It worked, with the help of Galileo, Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ and Isaac Newton, they changed the whole world, even fooling the ELECT when in 1820 Pius VII allowed heliocentric books to be read and believed within the Catholic religion. This heliocentrism led to evolutionism and millions of souls lost faith in supernatural Creation and God Himself.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    In order to have their heliocentrism, supposedly proven by 1820, Catholics began to conjure up every excuse they could think of to make the 1616 and 1633 decrees defining the Bible reveals geocentrism by condemning a heliocentric interpretation of it as formal heresy.

    The main ploy was to try to get the world to believe the 1616-1633 decrees were not irreversible (infallible). But when Vatican I defined the infallibility of a pope when he rules on faith or morals 50 years later, every condition for the 1616 and 1633 ruling as infallible were met. Now Fr Roberts was a good priest but he too, as all mankind at that time had been convinced by both in Church and State that Biblical geocentrism was proven wrong. So, Fr Roberts having studied the Galileo case and the teaching on infallibility, wrote that the 1616/1633 ruling met all the conditions on infallibility but because he believed geocentrism was proven wrong then the dogma on infallibility was proven wrong. Either that, or God did not write the bible.


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #43 on: June 12, 2023, 08:13:29 AM »
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  • It is very difficult to understand all that is involved in the GvH without reading more than you are willing to do Anthony. Here is a summary of 6000 years.

    Heliocentrism is a universal system that replaced the God of Adam and Eve with a pagan god. Even Catholicism teaches God can be known by the things that He made. Thus the sky showed the ancient races after Adam and Eve that God exists. It was then Satan convinced most that the sun, that sustains the Earth with life-giving means, to hold the sun as their god.

    The word Helios for the sun comes from Helios a sun god, the son of Hyperion and Theia, thus the terms heliocentrism and heliolatry. In the Holy Scriptures (3 Kings 16:31-33) we read of Baal, Bal or Bel, the sun god of the Phoenicians, whose worship was characterised by the most scandalously impure rites. Then there were the sun gods of the Canaanites and Mithraists of Persia. Sun worshipping is also condemned in Wisdom: 13:2  and 4 kings

    With the advent of Catholicism, this heliocentrism was condemned by churchmen for centuries until it went underground in the writings of the Gnostics (who hated Genesis) etc., waiting for a time when the world would embrace heliocentrism once again.

    On May 29, 1453, the ancient city of Byzantium fell to the Ottoman Turks. Its libraries were raided and ancient books in them became available for the first time in a thousand years. From these stores came the manuscripts purchased by Leonardo da Pistoia for the enormously wealthy and influential Cosimo de’ Medici (1389-1464).  The docuмents were said to contain divine wisdom, knowledge and teachings that came directly from Thoth, the wisdom god of the post-diluvian Egyptians, known to the Greeks as Hermēs Trismegistus (Hermēs Thrice Great), supposedly the greatest philosopher, priest and king who ever lived. Soon, the books were reprinted and spread everywhere.

    Copernicus was the first to introduce heliocentrism in his book de rev. In Book One, Copernicus makes a further reference but this time to Hermēs: 

    In the centre of all rests the sun. For who would place this lamp of a very beautiful temple in another or better place than this whereupon it can illuminate everything at the same time. In fact, not unhappily do some call it the lantern, others the mind and still others, the pilot of the world. Hermēs Trismegistus calls it a “visible god,” Sophocles’s Electra, “that which gazes upon all things.” And the sun, as if resting on a kingly throne, governs the family of stars which wheel around.’ --- De rev.

    So, this time, the pagan anti-Trinity God heliocentrism came back as supposedly true scientific astronomy. It worked, with the help of Galileo, Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ and Isaac Newton, they changed the whole world, even fooling the ELECT when in 1820 Pius VII allowed heliocentric books to be read and believed within the Catholic religion. This heliocentrism led to evolutionism and millions of souls lost faith in supernatural Creation and God Himself.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    In order to have their heliocentrism, supposedly proven by 1820, Catholics began to conjure up every excuse they could think of to make the 1616 and 1633 decrees defining the Bible reveals geocentrism by condemning a heliocentric interpretation of it as formal heresy.

    The main ploy was to try to get the world to believe the 1616-1633 decrees were not irreversible (infallible). But when Vatican I defined the infallibility of a pope when he rules on faith or morals 50 years later, every condition for the 1616 and 1633 ruling as infallible were met. Now Fr Roberts was a good priest but he too, as all mankind at that time had been convinced by both in Church and State that Biblical geocentrism was proven wrong. So, Fr Roberts having studied the Galileo case and the teaching on infallibility, wrote that the 1616/1633 ruling met all the conditions on infallibility but because he believed geocentrism was proven wrong then the dogma on infallibility was proven wrong. Either that, or God did not write the bible.
    Thanks for the response. I don't have the time to long super long docuмents anymore due to getting a job not too long ago. Oh so many books on the backlog...

    Thank you for the summary.

    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #44 on: June 12, 2023, 06:20:53 PM »
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  • It is very difficult to understand all that is involved in the GvH without reading more than you are willing to do Anthony. Here is a summary of 6000 years.

    Heliocentrism is a universal system that replaced the God of Adam and Eve with a pagan god. Even Catholicism teaches God can be known by the things that He made. Thus the sky showed the ancient races after Adam and Eve that God exists. It was then Satan convinced most that the sun, that sustains the Earth with life-giving means, to hold the sun as their god.

    The word Helios for the sun comes from Helios a sun god, the son of Hyperion and Theia, thus the terms heliocentrism and heliolatry. In the Holy Scriptures (3 Kings 16:31-33) we read of Baal, Bal or Bel, the sun god of the Phoenicians, whose worship was characterised by the most scandalously impure rites. Then there were the sun gods of the Canaanites and Mithraists of Persia. Sun worshipping is also condemned in Wisdom: 13:2  and 4 kings

    With the advent of Catholicism, this heliocentrism was condemned by churchmen for centuries until it went underground in the writings of the Gnostics (who hated Genesis) etc., waiting for a time when the world would embrace heliocentrism once again.

    On May 29, 1453, the ancient city of Byzantium fell to the Ottoman Turks. Its libraries were raided and ancient books in them became available for the first time in a thousand years. From these stores came the manuscripts purchased by Leonardo da Pistoia for the enormously wealthy and influential Cosimo de’ Medici (1389-1464).  The docuмents were said to contain divine wisdom, knowledge and teachings that came directly from Thoth, the wisdom god of the post-diluvian Egyptians, known to the Greeks as Hermēs Trismegistus (Hermēs Thrice Great), supposedly the greatest philosopher, priest and king who ever lived. Soon, the books were reprinted and spread everywhere.

    Copernicus was the first to introduce heliocentrism in his book de rev. In Book One, Copernicus makes a further reference but this time to Hermēs: 

    In the centre of all rests the sun. For who would place this lamp of a very beautiful temple in another or better place than this whereupon it can illuminate everything at the same time. In fact, not unhappily do some call it the lantern, others the mind and still others, the pilot of the world. Hermēs Trismegistus calls it a “visible god,” Sophocles’s Electra, “that which gazes upon all things.” And the sun, as if resting on a kingly throne, governs the family of stars which wheel around.’ --- De rev.

    So, this time, the pagan anti-Trinity God heliocentrism came back as supposedly true scientific astronomy. It worked, with the help of Galileo, Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ and Isaac Newton, they changed the whole world, even fooling the ELECT when in 1820 Pius VII allowed heliocentric books to be read and believed within the Catholic religion. This heliocentrism led to evolutionism and millions of souls lost faith in supernatural Creation and God Himself.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    In order to have their heliocentrism, supposedly proven by 1820, Catholics began to conjure up every excuse they could think of to make the 1616 and 1633 decrees defining the Bible reveals geocentrism by condemning a heliocentric interpretation of it as formal heresy.

    The main ploy was to try to get the world to believe the 1616-1633 decrees were not irreversible (infallible). But when Vatican I defined the infallibility of a pope when he rules on faith or morals 50 years later, every condition for the 1616 and 1633 ruling as infallible were met. Now Fr Roberts was a good priest but he too, as all mankind at that time had been convinced by both in Church and State that Biblical geocentrism was proven wrong. So, Fr Roberts having studied the Galileo case and the teaching on infallibility, wrote that the 1616/1633 ruling met all the conditions on infallibility but because he believed geocentrism was proven wrong then the dogma on infallibility was proven wrong. Either that, or God did not write the bible.


    What you say here about Heliocentrism and Satan worship is very telling considering that Vigano

    has called Jesus the Sol Invictus (Unconquered Sun) twice in his letters and also promoted the Heliocentric model.

    Luciferians celebrate Sol Invictus day and there are Lodges named Sol Invictus.
    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



    [fon