[Jaynek]

Its beyond me how people continue to ignore the fact that the Church has always been geocentric specifically because scripture describes it that way.  Even Wiki admits that.  
1994 Catechism of the Catholic Church – paragraph 105 says “God is the author of Sacred Scripture.  The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.  For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and New Testament, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author and have been handed on as such to the Church herself.” (Emphasis added.)
The Catholic Church has overwhelmingly declared the geocentric model to be factual and bases it in scripture.  

You keep repeating the same wrong things as if somehow they will become true if you say them enough.

The geocentric model that was at one time accepted by the Church included a globe earth. Catholics have believed in a globe earth for most of our history. Geocentric does not equal flat earth.  Scripture does not say the earth is flat.  The Church has never taught the earth is flat.  The condemnation of heliocentrism was removed in 1820 and there is no obligation on Catholics to believe geocentrism.

You are not defending the Church.  You are not defending Scripture.  All you are doing is spouting nonsense.

[happenby]

You keep repeating the same wrong things as if somehow they will become true if you say them enough.

The geocentric model that was at one time accepted by the Church included a globe earth. Catholics have believed in a globe earth for most of our history. Geocentric does not equal flat earth.  Scripture does not say the earth is flat.  The Church has never taught the earth is flat.  The condemnation of heliocentrism was removed in 1820 and there is no obligation on Catholics to believe geocentrism.

You are not defending the Church.  You are not defending Scripture.  All you are doing is spouting nonsense.

No, the geocentric model never included the globe.  Prove that.  You say that, but you cannot prove that.  You assume that.  Scripture doesn't have to say earth is flat.  It describes earth as flat, with a dome, that extends across it like a tent, with ends, four corners, founded on pillars, and above the dome is water, with the sun, moon and stars in the firmament below that.  You say it isn't flat, so show how earth is a globe.  Show how the Fathers teach earth is a globe.  They didn't.  They accepted it as it is described which is not only reasonable (the globe is totally unreasonable) but they accepted it as Scripture described and quotes have been provided to show that. The Church, based on Scripture alone, condemned heliocentrism, of which the globe is a long standing component.  Scripture is easy enough to understand.  You prefer to believe Scripture is too convoluted to understand, when throughout the centuries, we have Saints, Fathers and Popes who explain otherwise, but which you are too proud to accept.  Scripture is not only reliable but it is written for our understanding. It is infallible in its presentation and accuracy and certainly does not contradict reality.      

[Jaynek]

No, the geocentric model never included the globe.  Prove that.  You say that, but you cannot prove that.  You assume that.  

Just read the Wikipedia article on geocentric model (or any reference work you consider more reliable.)  It is common knowledge.

Ancient Greek, ancient Roman and medieval philosophers usually combined the geocentric model with a spherical Earth. It is not the same as the older flat Earth model implied in some mythology.^{[n 1][n 2][5]} The ancient Jєωιѕн Babylonian uranography pictured a flat Earth with a dome-shaped, rigid canopy called the firmament placed over it (רקיע- rāqîa').^{[n 3][n 4][n 5][n 6][n 7][n 8]} However, the ancient Greeks believed that the motions of the planets were circular and not elliptical, a view that was not challenged in Western culture until the 17th century through the synthesis of theories by Copernicusand Kepler.

The astronomical predictions of Ptolemy's geocentric model were used to prepare astrological and astronomical charts for over 1500 years. The geocentric model held sway into the early modern age, but from the late 16th century onward, it was gradually superseded by the Heliocentric model of Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler. There was much resistance to the transition between these two theories. Christian theologians were reluctant to reject a theory that agreed with Bible passages (e.g. "Sun, stand you still upon Gibeon", Joshua 10:12). Others felt a new, unknown theory could not subvert an accepted consensus for geocentrism.

When it says "medieval philosophers usually combined the geocentric model with a spherical earth" it is talking about Catholics like St. Thomas Aquinas. The Ptolemaic model (which specifies a spherical earth) was taught at Catholic universities. 

Note that this is the model of geocentrism in competition with the heliocentrism of Galileo.  Virtually everyone believed in a globe earth at this time.

[Truth is Eternal]

Just read the Wikipedia article on geocentric model (or any reference work you consider more reliable.)  It is common knowledge.

When it says "medieval philosophers usually combined the geocentric model with a spherical earth" it is talking about Catholics like St. Thomas Aquinas. The Ptolemaic model (which specifies a spherical earth) was taught at Catholic universities.

Note that this is the model of geocentrism in competition with the heliocentrism of Galileo.  Virtually everyone believed in a globe earth at this time.

NO THEY DID NOT!

[happenby]

Just read the Wikipedia article on geocentric model (or any reference work you consider more reliable.)  It is common knowledge.

When it says "medieval philosophers usually combined the geocentric model with a spherical earth" it is talking about Catholics like St. Thomas Aquinas. The Ptolemaic model (which specifies a spherical earth) was taught at Catholic universities.

Note that this is the model of geocentrism in competition with the heliocentrism of Galileo.  Virtually everyone believed in a globe earth at this time.

Philosophers usually combined the two?  Philosophers?  What philosophers?  Pagan ones?  Pythagoras? Erostothanes? Plato?  Who cares what pagans taught?  You want to celebrate how strange philosophies of the pagans entered the universities against the efforts of the Church!  How everyone believed them!  The Catholic Church was fighting this garbage back in Enoch's time, and again, it surfaced in the 200's and 300's, then again quite specifically in the year 550 when Cosmas wrote his book about the pagan notions of spherical earth and how stupid and baseless their premise was.  Cosmas proceeded to show that by Ancients like Moses, Enoch and the Fathers of the Church along with Scripture, that the Church already held the flat geocentric earth and that the sphere was perfidious pagan fantasy.  That was back in 550!  In other words, your philosophers were pushing and cramming their lies down the throats of Catholics for centuries and you suggest that we ought to accept their philosophy because the people had already accepted the globe? And because Ptolemy integrated the globe into his model?  And that when the Church condemned heliocentrism in 1633, She didn't intend to include the heliocentric globe? Seriously?  I'm not sure what kind of smoke you're toking, but history and Tradition prove over and over again that the pagan globe cosmogony has been a thorn in the Church's side from the beginning.  And now that modern science celebrates their victory over the Church and Catholic teaching with NASA's endless blue marble cgi fakery, you and your people finally have your win!  Well, party on.  You get a globe.                

[happenby]

By and by, the Catholic Church may not have been the official name of the Church in Enoch's time, but we worship the same God.  And God never changes. 

[Neil Obstat]

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Quote from: Jaynek on Today at 07:35:59 PM

Just read the Wikipedia article on geocentric model (or any reference work you consider more reliable.)  It is common knowledge.

When it says "medieval philosophers usually combined the geocentric model with a spherical earth" it is talking about Catholics like St. Thomas Aquinas. The Ptolemaic model (which specifies a spherical earth) was taught at Catholic universities. 

Note that this is the model of geocentrism in competition with the heliocentrism of Galileo.  Virtually everyone believed in a globe earth at this time.

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Philosophers usually combined the two?  Philosophers?  What philosophers?  Pagan ones?  Pythagoras? Erostothanes? Plato?  Who cares what pagans taught?               

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Perhaps you're unaware that St. Thomas Aquinas (Doctor of the Church) referred to Aristotle (a pagan philosopher) as "the Philosopher." 
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The same Angelic Doctor refers to St. Paul as "the Apostle." It is a term of honor and appreciation.
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Aristotle is widely thought to be the most intelligent man in the history of the world. He traveled far and studied much and devoted the greater part of his life to thinking and teaching. He used simple observations of the sun, moon and stars to conclude not only that the earth is spherical, but he closely estimated its size in terms of diameter. He did all this with very simple and primitive tools, and all of his observations have been repeated in our own time. Anyone can do them.
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I have offered you the chance to try some of them but you stubbornly refuse and resort to contrary statements without basis all the while claiming you have basis. But you don't provide any evidence of basis. Then you claim you have provided evidence even while you cannot describe the evidence you claim to have provided.
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[Truth is Eternal]

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Philosophers usually combined the two?  Philosophers?  What philosophers?  Pagan ones?  Pythagoras? Erostothanes? Plato?  Who cares what pagans taught?              

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Perhaps you're unaware that St. Thomas Aquinas (Doctor of the Church) referred to Aristotle (a pagan philosopher) as "the Philosopher."
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The same Angelic Doctor refers to St. Paul as "the Apostle." It is a term of honor and appreciation.
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Aristotle is widely thought to be the most intelligent man in the history of the world. He traveled far and studied much and devoted the greater part of his life to thinking and teaching. He used simple observations of the sun, moon and stars to conclude not only that the earth is spherical, but he closely estimated its size in terms of diameter. He did all this with very simple and primitive tools, and all of his observations have been repeated in our own time. Anyone can do them.
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I have offered you the chance to try some of them but you stubbornly refuse and resort to contrary statements without basis all the while claiming you have basis. But you don't provide any evidence of basis. Then you claim you have provided evidence even while you cannot describe the evidence you claim to have provided.
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The horizontal horizon is Infallible.

[Neil Obstat]

I am not saying anything, just pointing out that when Our Lady designed her Miraculous Medal she wanted the image shown as her standing on a globe, she even held a globe in her hand if you research the story.
Now looking at these more modern Vatican II medals notice how they are slowly removing the globe, to go along with the One World Religion teaching of the earth as a novel shape.  
Past and present Vatican II Medals
I feel certain if the earth was flat, Our Lady would have known this and left the curve out as not to offend.  

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It's interesting to see how so many of the French medals and images have a distinct globe under Our Lady's feet.
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Explanation of the medal; The Front of the medal

On the front of the medal we see Mary standing with her heel crushing the head of the serpent Satan who is on top of the world. Mary is showing us that she is the immaculate "New Eve" who was never conquered by satan to sin.

http://www.trinity.la/medal.htm

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If the "flatness" of Earth was so much on the mind of Catholics as flat-earthers claim, why is there no record of St. Catherine Laboure or Bernadette Soubrious, or Melanie Calvat or Maximin Gerard or the Fatima children ASKING Our Lady about the shape of the earth?

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[happenby]

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It's interesting to see how so many of the French medals and images have a distinct globe under Our Lady's feet.
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Explanation of the medal; The Front of the medal

On the front of the medal we see Mary standing with her heel crushing the head of the serpent Satan who is on top of the world. Mary is showing us that she is the immaculate "New Eve" who was never conquered by satan to sin.

http://www.trinity.la/medal.htm

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All of these represent the dome. 

[happenby]

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It's interesting to see how so many of the French medals and images have a distinct globe under Our Lady's feet.
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Explanation of the medal; The Front of the medal

On the front of the medal we see Mary standing with her heel crushing the head of the serpent Satan who is on top of the world. Mary is showing us that she is the immaculate "New Eve" who was never conquered by satan to sin.

http://www.trinity.la/medal.htm

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If the "flatness" of Earth was so much on the mind of Catholics as flat-earthers claim, why is there no record of St. Catherine Laboure or Bernadette Soubrious, or Melanie Calvat or Maximin Gerard or the Fatima children ASKING Our Lady about the shape of the earth?

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Because they didn't think about earth being a globe.  The mere thought of it is ludicrous.  People don't live on the outside of a ball.  The Church never entertained the notion that earth was a ball.  Why bother wondering about the obvious depiction of what is easily observed as the dome?

[Neil Obstat]

All of these represent the dome.

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Why would Our Lady stand outside your "dome" when what matters to us is what would be inside?
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How does satan (a snake) survive outside the "dome" where there is no air and as you claim, it's all water (since the "dome" separates the waters beyond it) and snakes are not able to breathe submerged in water?
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Why would Our Lady want to be all under water, when her gown doesn't show that it's wet?
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How does this "dome" exist in a vision right in the sanctuary of an altar when there is no water all around the altar?
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[happenby]

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It's interesting to see how so many of the French medals and images have a distinct globe under Our Lady's feet.
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Explanation of the medal; The Front of the medal

On the front of the medal we see Mary standing with her heel crushing the head of the serpent Satan who is on top of the world. Mary is showing us that she is the immaculate "New Eve" who was never conquered by satan to sin.

http://www.trinity.la/medal.htm

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If the "flatness" of Earth was so much on the mind of Catholics as flat-earthers claim, why is there no record of St. Catherine Laboure or Bernadette Soubrious, or Melanie Calvat or Maximin Gerard or the Fatima children ASKING Our Lady about the shape of the earth?

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And you're right that the medal is telling us that Mary is Immaculate.  That is the point of the medal.  No one is arguing that.   But there's no reason to insist that a Catholic medal represents a pagan ideal when it all comes together as one considers the Scriptural description of the dome. 

[Neil Obstat]

Because they didn't think about earth being a globe.  The mere thought of it is ludicrous.  People don't live on the outside of a ball.  The Church never entertained the notion that earth was a ball.  Why bother wondering about the obvious depiction of what is easily observed as the dome?

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At the time the whole world was talking about the earth as a globe. Why wouldn't that have bothered all these visionaries?
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[Neil Obstat]

And you're right that the medal is telling us that Mary is Immaculate.  That is the point of the medal.  No one is arguing that.   But there's no reason to insist that a Catholic medal represents a pagan ideal when it all comes together as one considers the Scriptural description of the dome.

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Let's take a walk and ask 100 people of your choosing what that thing is Our Lady is standing on.
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