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Good article on the occult origins of NASA, Big Bang, heliocentrism.
http://www.fixedearth.com/nasas-spiritual-roots.html
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Good article on the occult origins of NASA, Big Bang, heliocentrism.
http://www.fixedearth.com/nasas-spiritual-roots.html
Self professing globe earthers are guilty of being accessories/accomplices to this Diabolical New Age Religion. The question is, are they more of an accessory/accomplice to Jesus or to the Diabolical New Age Religion? :-[
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Good article on the occult origins of NASA, Big Bang, heliocentrism.
http://www.fixedearth.com/nasas-spiritual-roots.html
Although this guy is protestant and believes earth is a stationary globe, he recognizes the evils of NASA and uses their own words to show their occult agenda. Here's another in his series:
http://www.fixedearth.com/nasas-agenda.html
At least this globalist Prot tells the truth about NASA's agenda and has an excuse for not knowing the full truth. What can you say about Robert Sungenis who's Catholic? Sungenis is Globalist geocentric, but never quite gets the ball rolling against NASA.
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•The word NASA is a derivative from these words.
•In its original Hebrew it is נָשָׂא (naw-shaw').
•
•Transliteration: “Nasah” or “Nasa” (positive)
•Definition: - to lift, carry, take.
•
•The negative context is - Transliteration: “Nasha” (negative).
•Defitions (plural / more than one): Strong's Concordance Hebrew Dictionary list the definition for the Hebrew word #5377 (beguiled as used in Genesis 3:13), is shown here as: #5377 nasha', naw-shaw'; a prim. Root; to lead astray, i.e. (mentally) to delude, or (morally) to seduce:-beguile, deceive., X greatly, x utterly.
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•Reuters: The original recordings of the first humans landing on the moon 40 years ago were erased and re-used NASA officials said on Thursday, July 16, 2009.
•NASA also admits the Apollo 11 moon trip telecast in its raw format on telemetry data tape of the first Moon landing in 1969 was subsequently lost.
•NASA says there are 600 boxes, weighing over one ton, of telemetry data missing from EVERY Apollo mission.
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Let's face it, flat-earthers need their own church...
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The C H U R C H of F L A T - E A R T H I S M
.
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Then you can have all your silly dogmas and excommunicate everyone who disagrees with you and at least for the present life you can exclude from your private club any honest discussion of the observed facts of our world under the pretense of "heresy" and "anathema" or whatever you want to call it.
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Have fun.
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Of course, you'll always find a warm welcome on CI for your private club.
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No problem.
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Let's face it, flat-earthers need their own church...
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The C H U R C H of F L A T - E A R T H I S M
.
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Then you can have all your silly dogmas and excommunicate everyone who disagrees with you and at least for the present life you can exclude from your private club any honest discussion of the observed facts of our world under the pretense of "heresy" and "anathema" or whatever you want to call it.
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Have fun.
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Do you have a problem with the information provided in the O.P.? If so, can you specify what it is?
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Let's face it, flat-earthers need their own church...
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The C H U R C H of F L A T - E A R T H I S M
.
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Then you can have all your silly dogmas and excommunicate everyone who disagrees with you and at least for the present life you can exclude from your private club any honest discussion of the observed facts of our world under the pretense of "heresy" and "anathema" or whatever you want to call it.
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Have fun.
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No one excommunicated anyone. This isn't a private club. We've been honest, apologized when wrong, exchanged barb for barb, been patient, brought information, and got kicked around and called stupid. Pulling a woe-is-me on flat earthers isn't going to work. Everyone watching knows better. Dry your tears and carry on. Because, if what you're saying is true, flat earth is anathema. And you wouldn't want to let us off the hook, right?
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No one excommunicated anyone. This isn't a private club. We've been honest, apologized when wrong, exchanged barb for barb, been patient, brought information, and got kicked around and called stupid. Pulling a woe-is-me on flat earthers isn't going to work. Everyone watching knows better. Dry your tears and carry on. Because, if what you're saying is true, flat earth is anathema. And you wouldn't want to let us off the hook, right?
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You've been honest but you refuse to measure the angle between the sun and quarter moon?
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Better watch out your keyboard might short out from teardrops! ;)
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You're most welcome "off the hook" when you free yourself from the hook of flat-earth fantasy.
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The truth will set you free.
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Apparently The C H U R C H of F L A T - E A R T H I S M got your attention! Maybe it's attractive? Eh?
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Do you have a problem with the information provided in the O.P.? If so, can you specify what it is?
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What I have a problem with is flat-earthers who claim it's "Church teaching," which is false, or it's "heresy" to say otherwise.
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The OP is just more of the same rotten attitude like it's somehow respectable to deny the facts we see all around us.
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Do you want a list again?
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What I have a problem with is flat-earthers who claim it's "Church teaching," which is false, or it's "heresy" to say otherwise.
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The OP is just more of the same rotten attitude like it's somehow respectable to deny the facts we see all around us.
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Do you want a list again?
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Did you read the link in the O.P.?
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Although this guy is protestant and believes earth is a stationary globe, he recognizes the evils of NASA and uses their own words to show their occult agenda. Here's another in his series:
http://www.fixedearth.com/nasas-agenda.html
Once could not even be a geocentrist and still recognize the evils of NASA and their occult agenda.
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•Reuters: The original recordings of the first humans landing on the moon 40 years ago were erased and re-used NASA officials said on Thursday, July 16, 2009.
•NASA also admits the Apollo 11 moon trip telecast in its raw format on telemetry data tape of the first Moon landing in 1969 was subsequently lost.
•NASA says there are 600 boxes, weighing over one ton, of telemetry data missing from EVERY Apollo mission.
Whether you are a geocentrist or not, a flat-earther or not, it's very obvious that the US moon landings were a hoax.
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Let's face it, flat-earthers need their own church...
.
The C H U R C H of F L A T - E A R T H I S M
.
.
Then you can have all your silly dogmas and excommunicate everyone who disagrees with you and at least for the present life you can exclude from your private club any honest discussion of the observed facts of our world under the pretense of "heresy" and "anathema" or whatever you want to call it.
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Have fun.
.
Well, Neil, you exhibit a similar almost-religious zealotry in your contempt for flat earth. I'd like to know why. I've asked this of the flat-earthers, and now I ask you the same question. What does it matter to you, and to your salvation, and to your identity as a Catholic, whether the earth is a globe or whether it's flat?
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What I have a problem with is flat-earthers who claim it's "Church teaching," which is false, or it's "heresy" to say otherwise.
I also disagree with their assertion that flat earth is basically de fide. But your focus hasn't been on this aspect of the debate. JayneK has been focusing on that, but you have been more interested in the scientific angle.
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Did you read the link in the O.P.?
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Are you referring to this?
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The Spiritual Roots
of NASA's Big Bang Premise
We have taken some notice of NASA's goal of certifying evolution thru its "Origins Program" (http://www.fixedearth.com/nasas-agenda.html). We have also seen how that goal is being achieved thru a modus operandi involving high-tech computer programmed telescope and camera simulations (http://www.fixedearth.com/nasas-hanky-panky.html). What needs to be made perfectly clear now are two factors which blow away NASA's masquerade as "science" and reveal its true identity as an agent of a religion dedicated to the destruction of New Testament Christianity. Those two factors are: 1) NASA's entire rationale rests on the acceptance of the infinitely squirrelly Big Bang Expanding Universe hypothesis; and 2) That Big Bang hypothesis comes straight out of the Kabbala (Cabala) which is found in the anti-Christian "holy book" Zohar.
The Big Bang hypothesis--which is now the keystone of virtually all modern astronomical musings-- incorporates at least these four features (in addition to the Copernican Model) which cannot be altered lest NASA's plans (along with all of modern academic astronomy and physics) fall flat. These four features are:
A tiny bit of exploding energy, not God, created the universe and all that is in it. (It's ok to postulate some pagan g'd or force, etc., just so it's not the Biblical God who neither required nor used the Kabbalist billions of years of evolution.)
That exploded energy and all it allegedly created is still receding from the blast at great speed and provides a central plank in modern cosmology referred to as the expanding universe.
The alleged Big Blast occurred c.15 billion years ago. The energy turned to matter (Einstein) and formed the Earth 4.6 billion years ago (give or take a couple of months). All the points of light called stars which we can see with our eyes and with normal telescopes are said to be many light years away. The invisible but technology-manufactured galaxies of stars are said to be hundreds, and thousands, and millions, and billions of light years away...and on and on and on and on and on....
Einstein (named "Person of the Century" before '99 ended) still dictates the parameters of cosmology from the grave. The speed limit he put on light travel, the ether he removed so his calculations would work, the elasticity of time in space travel, the dogma that all motion is relative (the train and the train station nonsense), etc., is all cosmological gospel in the textbooks.
Since the Big Bang is the capstone of this gargantuan edifice of evidence-free hypotheses, discovering its roots should be of particular interest not only to those who hotly maintain that "Real Science" must be free of any kind of religious contamination or manipulation, but also to all folks anywhere who prefer Truth to deception regardless of any severe jolts to their personal beliefs and training which might result....
So, the long and the short of it is this: The whole ball of wax--from the Big Bang thru Einsteinian Relativity and NASA's Virtual Reality-based, Bible-bashing evolutionism--stems not from one single scientific fact, but rather, HAS ITS TAPROOT IN MYSTICAL KABBALISM.
Nuclear physicist, Dr. Gerald Schroeder, lets this cat out of the bag in his 17 page Web article entitled: "The Age of the Universe". Schroeder--formerly on the MIT staff, a member of the Atomic Energy Commission, author, lecturer in Jerusalem, etc., does not challenge the Big Bang cosmology and all that rests upon it in this revealing article. He supports all of it. Indeed, the thrust of his article is to demonstrate that hundreds of years ago the Kabbala set forth a clear description of what is now called the Big Bang explanation for the origin of the universe. In other words: Big Bang cosmology has its roots in the Kabbala (http://www.fixedearth.com/kabbala-7.html).
The evidence Schroeder presents is two-fold: A) That the Jєωιѕн Torah word for "the first day" in Genesis is really "day one", and the Hebrew meaning of that allows not only for the Big Bang's 15 billion year odyssey, but that it also accommodates Einstein's Relativity in all of its space, matter, and time hypotheses. B) The Kabbalist (Cabalist) Nachmanides (Rabbi ben Nachman: 1194-1270) does provide Dr. Schroeder (and all of modern physics and astronomy!) with the "Scriptural", Spiritual foundation that he (and how many others?!) are using to justify and establish Big Bangism and all that goes with it...all the while presenting Big Bangism as a purely secular "scientific" concept....
So, let's see what we've got here.... Our search engine brings up "The Jєωιѕн Student Online Research Center" to tell us about Nachmanides & the Kabbala (in case you don't already know...). We read:
"Nachmanides was the foremost halakist [rabbinical discussions of purely legal matters in the тαℓмυd] of his age. Like Maimonides before him, Nachmanides was a Spaniard who was both a physician and a great Torah scholar. However, unlike the rationalist Maimonides, Nachmanides had a strong mystical bent. His biblical commentaries are the first ones to incorporate the mystical teachings of kabala."
Then, these two interesting sidelights are mentioned: "He (Nachmanides) was well-known for HIS AGGRESSIVE REFUTATIONS OF CHRISTIANITY... and could be described AS ONE OF HISTORY'S FIRST ZIONISTS, because he declared that it is a mitzvah to take possession of Israel and to live in it...."
Hmmm... I can't let those two nuggets go by without at least parenthetically underscoring: 1) The "aggressive" anti-Christian nature of Kabbalism (which is spelled out in the most malicious terms also in the тαℓмυd); and 2) The fact that Kabbalism not only originated and endorses Big Bangism, but also provides the Spiritual heartbeat of the whole "back to Israel" Zionist movement which culminated with the establishment of Israel in 1948; and 3) That the controlling doctrine of "end time" Christian TV evangelism (http://www.fixedearth.com/christian-zionists.html) is squarely based on the same heartbeat....
The origin of this doctrine is Kabbalist "scripture", not the Bible, and all the grunting and sweating to make it Biblical is not only false teaching but actually promotes a mystical religion sworn to eradicate the Bible's teachings! There are several books that show why this Kabbalist-Zionist doctrine is not possible if the New Testament of Jesus Christ is true. Kabbalists--along with тαℓмυdists--hate Jesus and His followers. They have tricked Christians not only into making Zionist Machiavelianism (http://www.fixedearth.com/dandmotf.html) the most visible "Christian" thing on the Telly, they have also allowed Kabbalism to torpedo Bible credibility amidships with the crazy Big Bang cosmology. That cosmology demands a moving earth when the Bible says it isn't moving. That cosmology provides the billions of years for an old earth and gradual evolutionism when the Bible declares it was created ex nihilo in six days some 6000 years ago. Christians must wake up and see that the Kabbala and not the Bible is the source of many of their doctrines!) [See The Rapture (http://fixedearth.weebly.com/store/p15/The_Rapture%3A_The_Question_is_%22WHEN%22.html)...Millennialism (http://fixedearth.weebly.com/store/p13/Millennialism%3A__A_Doctrine_of_Devils.html).... Also, links that declare Millennialism Scripturally impossible can be evaluated: New or Renewed Earth (http://www.fixedearth.com/new-renew.html) - Does Jesus Return to Earth (http://www.fixedearth.com/ret-earth.html)? - King Now (http://www.fixedearth.com/kingnow.html) - 7th Trumpet (http://www.fixedearth.com/7th-trumpet.html). Christians are going to have to make a choice as to which "holy book" they are going to follow: The Bible with its New Testament of Jesus Christ, or Kabbala/тαℓмυdis, the sworn destroyers of that New Testament and of the Christ it presents.]
That parenthesis aside, the dictionary definition of Cabala (Kabbala) is appropriate here too. It says: "Cabala: a system of esoteric theosophy [claims of mystical insight into the divine nature] and theurgy [ancient magic] developed by rabbis from the 7th to 18th centuries...based on a mythical method of interpreting the scriptures to penetrate sacred mysteries and foretell the future."
Also, under the heading "Kabbalah" put out by the Jєωιѕн Center mentioned above, these additional definitions and descriptions are given:
"Kabbalah is the name applied to the whole range of Jєωιѕн mystical activity...."
"The rabbis of the тαℓмυd regarded the mystical study of God as important yet dangerous...." [They were right on that!]
"The most famous work of Kabbalah, the Zohar, was revealed to the Jєωιѕн world in the thirteenth century by Moses De Leon, who claimed that the book contained the mystical writings of the second-century rabbi Simeon bar Yochai...."
"Orthodox mystics are apt to see Bar Yochai not so much as the Zohar's author as the recorder of mystical traditions dating back to the time of Moses...."
"Whereas most commentaries interpret the Torah as a narrative and legal work, mystics are as likely to interpret it `AS A SYSTEM OF SYMBOLS WHICH REVEAL THE SECRET LAWS OF THE UNIVERSE AND EVEN THE SECRETS OF GOD'."
Given that it is the Kabbalah's rendering of the Genesis Scripture which allows for modern cosmology's Big Bang paradigm (and NASA's "Origins Program"!), it is instructive to include another Jєωιѕн scholar's assessment of the Kabbala:
"A precisely opposite view on the value of kabbalah was taken by the late Professor Saul Lieberman, the great тαℓмυd scholar of the Jєωιѕн Theology Seminary. In an introduction to a lecture [where several students wanted to study kabbalistic texts] he told them that...it is forbidden to have a course in nonsense...."
There is mention also that the kabbalah teaches a "belief in reincarnation"; that "kabbalah was widely considered to be the true Jєωιѕн theology between 1500 and 1800, and almost no one attacked it"; that "in recent years, there has been an upsurge of interest in kabbalah, and today it is commonly studied among Hasidic Jews, and among many non-Orthodox Jews WHO ARE PART OF THE COUNTERCULTURE."(Could this be part of the same counterculture we saw (NASAs Hanky-Panky (http://www.fixedearth.com/nasas-hanky-panky.html)) which turned into the now highly perfumed Cyberpunks who passionately embrace the Virtual Reality technology?? Was Carl Hallucinate Sagan's real mission at NASA to use the Space Program as a Kabbalistic tool to destroy Bible Creationism once and for all with its Big Bang-dependent, Virtual Reality fueled "Origins Program"?? It walks and talks like a Duck.... Yikes! It is a Duck, Donald!
Quoting Big Banger, physicist Schroeder:
"Nachmanides the kabbalist...says that although the days [of Genesis One] are 24 hours each, they contain 'kol yemot ha olam'--all the ages and all the secrets of the world.... Nachmanides says: There's only one physical creation, and that creation was a tiny speck.... In that speck was all the raw material that should be used for making everything else.... As this speck expanded out, this substance--so thin that it has no essence--turned into matter as we know it.... The moment that matter formed from this substanceless substance, time grabs hold.... Einstein's...E=MC2, tells us that energy can change into matter. And once it changes into matter, time grabs hold.... This moment of time before the clock begins for the Bible lasted about 1/100,000 of a second. A miniscule time. But in that time, the universe expanded from a tiny speck to about the size of the solar system. From that moment on we have matter, and time flows outward."
[c.3pp. further along...] "Let's look at the development of time, day by day, based on the expansion factor [1 million times 1 million from start till now].... The calculations come out to be as follows:
- The first Biblical day lasted 24 hours...But...from our perspective it was 8 billion years.
- The second day of 24 hours...was 4 billion years.
- The third day...was 2 billion years.
- The fourth day...1 billion years.
- The fifth day...1/2 billion years.
- The sixth day...1/4 billion years.
"[size={defaultattr}][font={defaultattr}]Then you add it up [Schroeder continues] and you get 15 3/4 billion years... the same as modern cosmology allows...."
Well, in sanforized form there you have the Kabbalist basis for the Big Bang, the expanding universe, the Einsteinian clock, and key aspects of modern textbook cosmology. That foundation is Kabbalistic black magic using invented mathematics to make the rabbit come out of the hat. Prof. Lieberman says it is nonsense. Several big time physicists quoted in THE EARTH IS NOT MOVING declare that--as a result of such nonsense--the whole field of modern physics is a science that doesn't have both oars in the water, to put it mildly.
And yet, modern man's knowledge (http://www.fixedearth.com/knowledge-impact.html) generally, and NASA's Bible-bashing agenda particularly, rests on this "nonsense".
For Christians (and the great number of Jews not fooled by Kabbalistic Zionism and evolutionism)--and for anybody else who can receive a love of the Truth (II Thess. 2:10)--it is time to understand that the source of all those billions of years that uphold Satan's kingdom of Babylon today derives from an ancient mystic spiritual force determined to smash Bible Christianity and bring about the triumph of Kabbalism, Zoharism, and тαℓмυdism.
NASA'S role in all this is the proof in the pudding.
(Go back to "NASA's Agenda (http://www.fixedearth.com/nasas-agenda.html): Promoting Copernicanism and Evolutionism")
(Go back to "NASA's Hanky-Panky (http://www.fixedearth.com/nasas-hanky-panky.html): Virtual Reality Technology")
The Real Universe?!
What's left but: A Small, Young Universe After All?! (http://www.fixedearth.com/small-universe.html)
(Also: "...Flagrant Deceptions in the Measurement of Star Distances (http://www.fixedearth.com/size--structure-pt-6.html)")[/font][/size]
[size={defaultattr}][font={defaultattr}].[/font][/size]
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Yes.
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I also disagree with their assertion that flat earth is basically de fide. But your focus hasn't been on this aspect of the debate. JayneK has been focusing on that, but you have been more interested in the scientific angle.
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Funny thing about truth is, it doesn't have to be defended from ONLY ONE foundation.
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Truth is universal, and when it is attacked from one angle it can be defended from many different angles.
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If JayneK wants to take up aspects of the scientific angle, that's fine with me. She doesn't own the religious aspect.
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If I'm capable of standing up for the Catholic Faith maybe she can stand up for natural reason, too.
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The Church has never required of Catholics that we deny what our intellect understands from what we see with our eyes.
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Neil,
So you have read the link in the O.P.
Do you have a problem with NASA's Origens program?
Or....are you okay with it?
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The moment that matter formed from this substanceless substance, time grabs hold.... Einstein's...E=mc2, tells us that energy can change into matter. And once it changes into matter, time grabs hold.... This moment of time before the clock begins for the Bible lasted about 1/100,000 of a second. A miniscule time. But in that time, the universe expanded from a tiny speck to about the size of the solar system.
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Here's a quip with lots of problems.
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Can anyone here define what "substanceless substance" is, from which they're saying matter formed?
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They break their own rule here, quoting Einstein (who said that matter cannot exceed the speed of light), then saying that the entire universe broke his universal speed limit when in 1/100,000th of a second it expanded to the size of our solar system, because it takes light over 8 minutes to get from the sun to the earth, let alone across the whole solar system, but one-one-hundred thousandth of a second?
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Give me a break.
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Here's a quip with lots of problems.
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Can anyone here define what "substanceless substance" is, from which they're saying matter formed?
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They break their own rule here, quoting Einstein (who said that matter cannot exceed the speed of light), then saying that the entire universe broke his universal speed limit when in 1/100,000th of a second it expanded to the size of our solar system, because it takes light over 8 minutes to get from the sun to the earth, let alone across the whole solar system, but one-one-hundred thousandth of a second?
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Give me a break.
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Are you basically okay with NASA's Origins program?
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I also disagree with their assertion that flat earth is basically de fide. But your focus hasn't been on this aspect of the debate. JayneK has been focusing on that, but you have been more interested in the scientific angle.
If people were only discussing science, I doubt that I would have ever posted on this topic. Science normally isn't something that is very important to me.
Unfortunately, most of the flat earth proponents posting here seem to make false claims about the Catholic faith. They say that flat earth is a Catholic position. They treat their personal interpretations of Scripture as if they were as inerrant as Scripture itself. They use non-canonical sources (like Enoch) as if they were authoritative. They treat the personal opinions of Church Fathers as if these were somehow binding Church teaching. They ignore/twist magisterial teaching on how we should understand Scripture pertaining to questions of cosmology.
These are serious errors because they misrepresent Catholicism. The Catholic Church is the guardian of truth in the world so it is of the highest importance to only speak the truth regrading Church teaching. Being right or wrong about the shape of the earth has little significance, but making untrue claims about Catholicism endangers souls.
I greatly enjoyed my Lenten break from flat earth debates. It is frustrating to interact with people who stubbornly cling to falsehoods no matter what one says. I have been seriously considering dropping out of these discussions. But I am not sure that I can do so with a clear conscience. Do I fail in my duty to the Catholic faith if I leave their constant false claims about the Church unopposed?
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If people were only discussing science, I doubt that I would have ever posted on this topic. Science normally isn't something that is very important to me.
Unfortunately, most of the flat earth proponents posting here seem to make false claims about the Catholic faith. They say that flat earth is a Catholic position. They treat their personal interpretations of Scripture as if they were as inerrant as Scripture itself. They use non-canonical sources (like Enoch) as if they were authoritative. They treat the personal opinions of Church Fathers as if these were somehow binding Church teaching. They ignore/twist magisterial teaching on how we should understand Scripture pertaining to questions of cosmology.
These are serious errors because they misrepresent Catholicism. The Catholic Church is the guardian of truth in the world so it is of the highest importance to only speak the truth regrading Church teaching. Being right or wrong about the shape of the earth has little significance, but making untrue claims about Catholicism endangers souls.
I greatly enjoyed my Lenten break from flat earth debates. It is frustrating to interact with people who stubbornly cling to falsehoods no matter what one says. I have been seriously considering dropping out of these discussions. But I am not sure that I can do so with a clear conscience. Do I fail in my duty to the Catholic faith if I leave their constant false claims about the Church unopposed?
St. Augustine famously wrote: “We distribute the human race into two kinds of men, one living according to man, the other living according to God. Mystically, we call them two Cities, or two societies of men: the one of which is predestined to reign eternally with God, the other to suffer eternal punishment with the devil.” (City of God, 15, 1.)
If we look still more closely, we discover that, at root, what produces these two cities is how the members in each of the two societies use their wills. It all depends on whom and how deeply they love and what they are willing to pay as the price of their love. “These two Cities are made by two loves: the early City by love of oneself even to the contempt of God; the heavenly City by love of God even to the contempt of self. The one glories in itself, the other glories in God. The one seeks glory from men; to the other, God, witness of conscience, is its glory. The one lifts up its head in its own glory; the other says to its God, “My glory and the one who raises my head”, (Psalm 3:3), (The City of God, 14, 28.)
In studying the spiritual roots of beliefs held by men, we find an either/or situation according to St. Augustine. Spherical earth is repeatedly and unapologetically anti-God with its Big Bang lies and Kabbalistic roots. Pretending that science cannot be infected with false ideas bearing evil spiritual fruit is a purposeful blindness that helps to maintain the impenetrable walls of the city of man and everything found therein.
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In studying the spiritual roots of beliefs held by men, we find an either/or situation according to St. Augustine. Spherical earth is repeatedly and unapologetically anti-God with its Big Bang lies and Kabbalistic roots. Pretending that science cannot be infected with false ideas bearing evil spiritual fruit is a purposeful blindness that helps to maintain the impenetrable walls of the city of man and everything found therein.
For over a millennium, practically all the Catholics we know about have believed a spherical earth. St. Bede, St. Albert the Great, St. Thomas Aquinas, and St. Robert Bellarmine all believed the earth is a sphere. Century after century, Saints, popes, Doctors of the Church, and average lay people have believed this. It is absurd to claim that this means there was something wrong with their faith or that they had chosen the anti-God side.
I actually agree that science has been "infected with false ideas bearing evil spiritual fruit". But that does not mean that everything in science should be thrown out. Back in the Middle Ages, when science was pretty much under the control of the Church, Catholic universities taught spherical earth and this was the normal belief of Catholics. This is what Catholics thought before the current infection of science set in. There is no reason that we should not think it now.
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If we look still more closely, we discover that, at root, what produces these two cities is how the members in each of the two societies use their wills. It all depends on whom and how deeply they love and what they are willing to pay as the price of their love. “These two Cities are made by two loves: the early City by love of oneself even to the contempt of God; the heavenly City by love of God even to the contempt of self. The one glories in itself, the other glories in God. The one seeks glory from men; to the other, God, witness of conscience, is its glory. The one lifts up its head in its own glory; the other says to its God, “My glory and the one who raises my head”, (Psalm 3:3), (The City of God, 14, 28.)
I like the analogy above, which says that..."These two cities are made by two loves: the early City by love of oneself even to the contempt of God; the heavenly City by love of God even to the contempt of self. The one glories in itself, the other glories in God."
The flat earth, at least for Catholics here, has more to do with love of God rather than love of self. At least I would hope that this is the case. It seems to be, to me. I've been reading a book by a Novus Ordo Cardinal (a big no-no, I know) but it contains some good insight into our very human preoccupation with ourselves, rather than God. It also speaks to silence and nature. Here are a couple of quotes that are related, I think, to the topic at hand:
"It is necessary to protect precious silence from all parasitical noise of our "ego" which never stops claiming its rights, plunging us into an excessive preoccupation with ourselves. The noise of our memory, which draws us toward the past, that of our recollections or of our sins. The noise of temptation or of acedia, the spirit of gluttony, lust, avarice, sadness, vanity, pride--in short: everything that makes up the spiritual combat that man must wage every day. In order to silence these parasitical noises, in order to consume everything in the sweet flame of the Holy Spirit, silence is the supreme antidote."
"Creation itself is a silent word of God. The wordless beauty of nature displays before our eyes the manifold riches of a Father who is ceaselessly present among men. This divine speech is not audible to ears that are too human. Nevertheless, it is the most profound speech of all. The sun, the moon, and the stars are absolutely silent to our ears, but they are a word and a message essential to our human existence. There is a language of the stars that we can neither know nor comprehend but that God understands perfectly."
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For over a millennium, practically all the Catholics we know about have believed a spherical earth. St. Bede, St. Albert the Great, St. Thomas Aquinas, and St. Robert Bellarmine all believed the earth is a sphere. Century after century, Saints, popes, Doctors of the Church, and average lay people have believed this. It is absurd to claim that this means there was something wrong with their faith or that they had chosen the anti-God side.
I actually agree that science has been "infected with false ideas bearing evil spiritual fruit". But that does not mean that everything in science should be thrown out. Back in the Middle Ages, when science was pretty much under the control of the Church, Catholic universities taught spherical earth and this was the normal belief of Catholics. This is what Catholics thought before the current infection of science set in. There is no reason that we should not think it now.
You said: "For over a millennium, practically all the Catholics we know about have believed a spherical earth."
Ok, not entirely true, but for argument's sake, let's accept your premise. How magnificently this Catholic acceptance has developed! Observe the current beliefs of the globalist nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr, with its atheistic foundations promoted by the leading scientific mouthpiece NASA who denies biblical creation, denies God in science, promotes global warming lies, evolution, the Big Bang, millions year old earth, relativity, the heliocentric denial of reality and every manner of pagan scientific gnosis at odds with the Church. Finally, with these heliocentric evolutionists running the show, the world teeters on the brink of disaster so should we praise them for it? What a bang-on success for them acceptance has been!
By the way, don't paraphrase my words and insert meaning or intent. I've never even remotely suggested that all science be thrown out.
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If people were only discussing science, I doubt that I would have ever posted on this topic. Science normally isn't something that is very important to me.
Unfortunately, most of the flat earth proponents posting here seem to make false claims about the Catholic faith. They say that flat earth is a Catholic position. They treat their personal interpretations of Scripture as if they were as inerrant as Scripture itself. They use non-canonical sources (like Enoch) as if they were authoritative. They treat the personal opinions of Church Fathers as if these were somehow binding Church teaching. They ignore/twist magisterial teaching on how we should understand Scripture pertaining to questions of cosmology.
These are serious errors because they misrepresent Catholicism. The Catholic Church is the guardian of truth in the world so it is of the highest importance to only speak the truth regrading Church teaching. Being right or wrong about the shape of the earth has little significance, but making untrue claims about Catholicism endangers souls.
I greatly enjoyed my Lenten break from flat earth debates. It is frustrating to interact with people who stubbornly cling to falsehoods no matter what one says. I have been seriously considering dropping out of these discussions. But I am not sure that I can do so with a clear conscience. Do I fail in my duty to the Catholic faith if I leave their constant false claims about the Church unopposed?
The horizon always appears perfectly flat 360 degrees around the observer regardless of altitude. All amateur balloon, rocket, plane and drone footage show a completely flat horizon over 20+ miles high. Only NASA and other government "space agencies" show curvature in their fake CGI photos/videos.
The horizon always rises to the eye level of the observer as altitude is gained, so you never have to look down to see it. If Earth were in fact a globe, no matter how large, as you ascended the horizon would stay fixed and the observer / camera would have to tilt looking down further and further to see it.
The natural physics of water is to find and maintain its level. If Earth were a giant sphere tilted, wobbling and hurdling through infinite space then truly flat, consistently level surfaces would not exist here. But since Earth is in fact an extended flat plane, this fundamental physical property of fluids finding and remaining level is consistent with experience and common sense.
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The flat earth, at least for Catholics here, has more to do with love of God rather than love of self. At least I would hope that this is the case. It seems to be, to me.
It seems to me that Catholics who treat flat earth as a matter of faith want to see themselves as better Catholics than the usual ones who believe the earth is spherical.
Most Catholics who believe in a spherical earth seem to me to be simply accepting the norm for Catholics for the past thousand plus years. Such Catholics aren't interested in drawing attention to themselves or trying to be special or better than others. They are just going along with a well-established Catholic tradition.
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It seems to me that Catholics who treat flat earth as a matter of faith want to see themselves as better Catholics than the usual ones who believe the earth is spherical.
Most Catholics who believe in a spherical earth seem to me to be simply accepting the norm for Catholics for the past thousand plus years. Such Catholics aren't interested in drawing attention to themselves or trying to be special or better than others. They are just going along with a well-established Catholic tradition.
The above comment doesn't have anything to do with what I was trying to say. It would be nice if you could make an effort to understand what is being written, before you comment on it.
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I greatly enjoyed my Lenten break from flat earth debates. It is frustrating to interact with people who stubbornly cling to falsehoods no matter what one says. I have been seriously considering dropping out of these discussions. But I am not sure that I can do so with a clear conscience. Do I fail in my duty to the Catholic faith if I leave their constant false claims about the Church unopposed?
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Once someone decides they're a flat-earther, it's too late, they're not coming back from that nonsense. They didn't use facts, evidence, or logic to reach that conclusion in the first place, so you can't really use facts, evidence, or logic in your argument to convince them the earth is indeed spheroid.
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The issue of the shadow of Earth cast on the Moon (lunar eclipse) won't sway the flat-earthers because it is increasingly common for them to believe that the Moon is not real, but rather something like a "Holographic Projection", and the shadow of Earth could be simulated to have whatever shape was desired within the projection of the Moon, by those in charge of the projector. And, yes, they are talking about the THAT Moon projector, the one that has been projecting a simulated image of the Moon for thousands of years. When reality gets in the way of their ad hoc fantasy world, they just make stuff up, even if it contradicts what they've said before. Flat-earthism isn't scientific, it's not logical, and it's not reasonable. It's just silly.
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Flat-earthers refuse to think. They patently object to engage in any direct observations. They make themselves immune from simple logic.
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There is no discussion to be had with such wilfully obtuse obstructionists.
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Their greatest fear is that they've been wrong all along, but there is nothing to fear in truth.
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It seems to me that Catholics who treat flat earth as a matter of faith want to see themselves as better Catholics than the usual ones who believe the earth is spherical.
Most Catholics who believe in a spherical earth seem to me to be simply accepting the norm for Catholics for the past thousand plus years. Such Catholics aren't interested in drawing attention to themselves or trying to be special or better than others. They are just going along with a well-established Catholic tradition.
This sounds like that old Protestant adage "Catholic triumphalism" levied at Catholics because Catholics have the truth. Flat earthers do not think they are better than anyone. Every single truth God shares with us is important to salvation, at least to protect one from error that might cost them the Faith. Flat earthers only desire to share the truth in order to help people out of the false paradigm they've suffered from the deviations of the controlling globalists. Instead, fe'ers are met with every resistance, calumny, disregard, rudeness, and contradiction imaginable, and for that, they are crowned as seeing themselves as better-than-thou Catholics. Un flipping believable!
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Once someone decides they're a flat-earther, it's too late, they're not coming back from that nonsense. They didn't use facts, evidence, or logic to reach that conclusion in the first place, so you can't really use facts, evidence, or logic in your argument to convince them the earth is indeed spheroid.
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The issue of the shadow of Earth cast on the Moon (lunar eclipse) won't sway the flat-earthers because it is increasingly common for them to believe that the Moon is not real, but rather something like a "Holographic Projection", and the shadow of Earth could be simulated to have whatever shape was desired within the projection of the Moon, by those in charge of the projector. And, yes, they are talking about the THAT Moon projector, the one that has been projecting a simulated image of the Moon for thousands of years. When reality gets in the way of their ad hoc fantasy world, they just make stuff up, even if it contradicts what they've said before. Flat-earthism isn't scientific, it's not logical, and it's not reasonable. It's just silly.
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Flat-earthers refuse to think. They patently object to engage in any direct observations. They make themselves immune from simple logic.
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There is no discussion to be had with such wilfully obtuse obstructionists.
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Their greatest fear is that they've been wrong all along, but there is nothing to fear in truth.
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Are you basically okay with NASA's Origins program?
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Why should anyone care what NASA is all about? Why are you so obsessed with NASA? Who cares about NASA?
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If it's your tax money that's your concern, what about funding abortion or supporting the Israeli war agenda?
Or using military forces in Afghanistan to protect the opium and poppy world trade and profiteering?
Is NASA more important than everything to you because you like to think the earth is a cheesecake?
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Once someone decides they're a flat-earther, it's too late, they're not coming back from that nonsense. They didn't use facts, evidence, or logic to reach that conclusion in the first place, so you can't really use facts, evidence, or logic in your argument to convince them the earth is indeed spheroid.
I agree that it is not possible to convince them of anything. I gave up on doing that soon after I first encountered them. But they continually say untrue things about Catholicism and Church teaching. I would prefer to ignore them, but I think I may have a duty to respond with the truth, not to convince them, but so the truth will be on record.
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I agree that it is not possible to convince them of anything. I gave up on doing that soon after I first encountered them. But they continually say untrue things about Catholicism and Church teaching. I would prefer to ignore them, but I think I may have a duty to respond with the truth, not to convince them, but so the truth will be on record.
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That's fine, just keep in mind you won't be getting any logical or reasonable discussions. It'll be like talking to a cactus.
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Some people enjoy talking to their plants, though, and some have cactus gardens.
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Flat-earthers refuse to think.
They patently object to engage in any direct observations.
They make themselves immune from simple logic.
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There is no discussion to be had with such willfully obtuse obstructionists.
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Their greatest fear is that they've been wrong all along,
but there's nothing to fear in the truth.
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There is nothing for flat-earthers to fear but sphere itself.
:incense:
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Discernment of what is truth is sorely lacking in people these days.
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•The word NASA is a derivative from these words.
•In its original Hebrew it is נָשָׂא (naw-shaw').
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•Transliteration: “Nasah” or “Nasa” (positive)
•Definition: - to lift, carry, take.
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•The negative context is - Transliteration: “Nasha” (negative).
•Defitions (plural / more than one): Strong's Concordance Hebrew Dictionary list the definition for the Hebrew word #5377 (beguiled as used in Genesis 3:13), is shown here as: #5377 nasha', naw-shaw'; a prim. Root; to lead astray, i.e. (mentally) to delude, or (morally) to seduce:-beguile, deceive., X greatly, x utterly.
Always thought the jews had infiltrated NASA.
In fact, the whole NASA moon launch program was probably their biggest embezzlement heist of the American treasury of the 1960s. After stealing $billions, the ʝʊdɛօ-masonics realized they could rob the whole country blind.
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Did you read the link in the O.P.?
You mean the cited Web page in <www.fixedearth.com>?
Too Much [expletives deleted] Eye-Strain--Didn't Finish (TMES-DF).
Only an artsy-trendy idiot would expect people to read long prose displayed in medium-gray on some artsy-trendy background-color that's any darker than white. Oooh! But they're edgy & hip young "Web designers", and anything they do is kewwwl!
Hah! As my eyes accuмulate seniority, I increasingly want to see all such artsy-trendy idiots dragged out from in front of their luxurious set of huge computer monitors used only under the most visually perfect lighting--and shot![/i]
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You mean the cited Web page in <www.fixedearth.com>?
Too Much [expletives deleted] Eye-Strain--Didn't Finish (TMES-DF).
Only an artsy-trendy idiot would expect people to read long prose displayed in medium-gray on some artsy-trendy background-color that's any darker than white. Oooh! But they're edgy & hip young "Web designers", and anything they do is kewwwl!
Hah! As my eyes accuмulate seniority, I increasingly want to see all such artsy-trendy idiots dragged out from in front of their luxurious set of huge computer monitors used only under the most visually perfect lighting--and shot!
Ditto.
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Well, Neil, you exhibit a similar almost-religious zealotry in your contempt for flat earth. I'd like to know why.
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I've already answered this question many times.
Maybe to you it looks like "contempt" but to me, their obvious falsehoods and lies need to be exposed.
They're fake. All their so-called observations are falsified, and I know that for a fact.
I have gone to great lengths to show each detail and all I get is ridicule for the effort.
And then you come along and pretend nothing has happened.
Your reading comprehension must be highly compromised unless you haven't been keeping up with the topic.
Or else you just like to pretend you don't know so you can remain agnostic, like you do with other topics.
It's not "zealotry" when you have seen the reality in question with your own eyes, and I have seen it.
So would you be happier if I were to lie about it and say I have not seen the earth's curvature with my own eyes?
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Put another way, if YOU had seen it with your own eyes, would you think you'd have to be a "zealot" to speak the truth?
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