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Author Topic: Moon Illusion  (Read 3044 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: Moon Illusion
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2018, 12:27:26 PM »
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  • This is the correct explanation.

    Except that this has been dismissed by scientists based on the fact that if you actually measure the moon it's not REALLY any bigger ... so they say.  That's why the consensus is for optical illusion.

    I was actually looking for a flat-earth take on this.  According to flat earth theory, the moon does indeed get significantly closer to and farther from people at any given time ... so it's size SHOULD change.  But if it's true that the size of the moon does NOT actually change from the perspective of the observer, then the flat earth explanation of how the moon moves must be considered wrong, no?

    Offline Marlelar

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    Re: Moon Illusion
    « Reply #16 on: March 04, 2018, 02:33:57 PM »
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  • Basically, though, some flat earthers have made videos showing how if you take a good camera and zoom in on the moon, you can see remarkable detail of its topography.  I find it difficult to believe that you could get that kind of detail when we're 238,000 miles away from the moon ... allegedly.  On earth, the best cameras can't get anything but a blurry picture from more than a few miles away.
    I have heard that even today's amateur telescopes are good enough to show some details on the moon.  I didn't pay too much attention at the time but I think it was in an astrophotography docuмentary that I watched a few months ago.
    I have always assumed that the changing size of the moon is an optical illusion, some full moons at rising, at least here in the desert look HUGE, like if you hold a dinner plate at arms length up to the sky, other months it looks more like the diameter of a mug.  I don't think the earth or the moon are actually moving closer or farther apart so I just figured it must be an optical illusion based on something I didn't understand. 


    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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    Re: Moon Illusion
    « Reply #17 on: March 04, 2018, 09:04:37 PM »
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  • Yeah. Except they SAY that if you hold some object up to the moon when it's big like that and then do the same thing when it looks smaller, it'll still be covered up by the same length of the object.  I'll try that at some point.
    Yeah, I'd like to see that too.  
    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."

    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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    Re: Moon Illusion
    « Reply #18 on: March 04, 2018, 09:06:13 PM »
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  • Basically, though, some flat earthers have made videos showing how if you take a good camera and zoom in on the moon, you can see remarkable detail of its topography.  I find it difficult to believe that you could get that kind of detail when we're 238,000 miles away from the moon ... allegedly.  On earth, the best cameras can't get anything but a blurry picture from more than a few miles away.
    That does seem pretty fantastic.  
    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Moon Illusion
    « Reply #19 on: March 04, 2018, 09:24:09 PM »
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  • Except that this has been dismissed by scientists based on the fact that if you actually measure the moon it's not REALLY any bigger ... so they say.  That's why the consensus is for optical illusion.

    I was actually looking for a flat-earth take on this.  According to flat earth theory, the moon does indeed get significantly closer to and farther from people at any given time ... so it's size SHOULD change.  But if it's true that the size of the moon does NOT actually change from the perspective of the observer, then the flat earth explanation of how the moon moves must be considered wrong, no?
    .
    Correct. It must be considered wrong, on the face of observations cited.
    .
    If the moon is always further away from us as it rises and sets, it would never appear larger at those times.
    .
    The flat-earthers claim the sun and moon BOTH get "smaller" as they approach the horizon, because according to their hypothesis, in absence of any working model (while they claim they're not in need of any good model, no way, no how), the sun and moon get FURTHER AWAY from the viewer at sunset and moonset. The logical extension of this is obviously that the sun and moon BEGIN to rise in the east further away from the viewer. But they neglect to talk about that since it only further hurts their flimsy case.
    .
    The phenomenon you have noticed occurs occasionally, and I agree with you that "there is no way this can be an illusion." 
    .
    I don't claim to be able to explain it either, but like you I have noticed it. About a handful of times in my life I have seen the moon appearing to be literally twice its normal size for a brief time as it rises in the east. As I recall it's at or near the full moon phase when I have seen this but I haven't paid attention to whether it is before, during or after the full moon proper.
    .
    As I recall, this has been in the early evening, which makes sense if it's a full moon or close to it, and it is always in the east and never in the west (as the full moon sets). But I could be wrong. I'm just recalling what I remember offhand.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Moon Illusion
    « Reply #20 on: March 04, 2018, 09:39:43 PM »
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  • Basically, though, some flat earthers have made videos showing how if you take a good camera and zoom in on the moon, you can see remarkable detail of its topography.  I find it difficult to believe that you could get that kind of detail when we're 238,000 miles away from the moon ... allegedly.  On earth, the best cameras can't get anything but a blurry picture from more than a few miles away.
    .
    To settle your questions, I recommend finding an astronomy club meeting in a shopping center parking lot in the evening (for example) with dozens of fancy telescopes set up, trained on you-name-it.
    .
    If it's a full moon, some will have their sights set on the moon and they are more than happy to answer all your questions. Some have elaborate photographic capability and can show you RIGHT NOW displays on their laptop screens of closeups of the moon as it happens.
    .
    The best of them, with maximum magnification, cannot pick out fine details like the shape of car-sized boulders on the moon.
    .
    The reason is, the moon is simply too far away to get such details.
    .
    Plus, we are looking through the earth's atmosphere, which inherently involves some distortion, even on the clearest nights.
    .
    You can ask them if any of them have seen or have heard of others seeing any of the physical remains of moon landings. Their answer is a unanimous "no." The lunar landers left behind are simply not big enough to be distinguished from large rocks, and obviously the rovers and their tracks, or flags, or footprints are likewise too small.
    .
    But one thing can be seen. There are omnidirectional reflectors left behind which act like mirrors that return to the source in any direction the light that is shined on them, just as highway signs reflect your headlights regardless of from which direction you are approaching them. This is a simple, static prism arrangement of cells that always does the same thing: reflects light back to the source shining on it.
    .
    This is how very precise measurements are possible, measuring to within a fraction of an inch the distance to the moon's reflector(s) at any given moment. This is how we can know that the moon is very gradually moving further away from earth, curiously. The same devices are used by surveyors to measure distances to objects on earth. But the equipment used for moon shots have more powerful lasers and you need to have special qualification to use them since if you accidentally shoot one at an airplane you could blind the pilot.
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    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Moon Illusion
    « Reply #21 on: March 05, 2018, 06:08:23 AM »
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  • Except that this has been dismissed by scientists based on the fact that if you actually measure the moon it's not REALLY any bigger ... so they say.  That's why the consensus is for optical illusion.

    I was actually looking for a flat-earth take on this.  According to flat earth theory, the moon does indeed get significantly closer to and farther from people at any given time ... so it's size SHOULD change.  But if it's true that the size of the moon does NOT actually change from the perspective of the observer, then the flat earth explanation of how the moon moves must be considered wrong, no?
    Atmospheric lensing thru vapor IS an optical illusion.
    Ask yourself this:
    Does your finger REALLY get bigger when you stick it in a glass of water? 
    No. It only appears that way.
    Does the street lamp REALLY get bigger on a foggy night,  as in the other example?
    No.
    It only appears bigger.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Moon Illusion
    « Reply #22 on: March 05, 2018, 09:34:08 AM »
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  • Atmospheric lensing thru vapor IS an optical illusion.
    Ask yourself this:
    Does your finger REALLY get bigger when you stick it in a glass of water?
    No. It only appears that way.
    Does the street lamp REALLY get bigger on a foggy night,  as in the other example?
    No.
    It only appears bigger.

    But doesn't this seriously HURT the case for flat earth?  If the moon gets significantly closer to us when it's overhead, since it's closer, its size should change measurably as it's moving around.


    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Moon Illusion
    « Reply #23 on: March 05, 2018, 01:53:12 PM »
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  • But doesn't this seriously HURT the case for flat earth?  If the moon gets significantly closer to us when it's overhead, since it's closer, its size should change measurably as it's moving around.
    No because average distance to horizon is only 10-30 miles. 

    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Moon Illusion
    « Reply #24 on: March 05, 2018, 02:04:24 PM »
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  • Example:

     Flat earth diagram is an x-y graph.

    Your position is at zero.

    Moon rises in east at 2 degree. 

    Moon zenith is at 90 degrees. 

    Moon set in west is at 180 degrees. 

    Moon tracks in a level line above always, so farthest distance from zero is at rise and set, closest distance is at zenith.

    But that doesn't mean you CAN see to the farthest actual distance at rise and set. You can only see to your horizon, due to perspective which averages 10-30 miles.

    You can see the entire distance at zenith because there is no horizon blocking your view

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Moon Illusion
    « Reply #25 on: March 05, 2018, 04:51:26 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus on Today at 07:34:08 AM
    Quote
    But doesn't this seriously HURT the case for flat earth?  If the moon gets significantly closer to us when it's overhead, since it's closer, its size should change measurably as it's moving around.

    No because average distance to horizon is only 10-30 miles.
    .
    What a load of horse hockey.
    .
    The moon and the sun each take a whole DAY to traverse the sky from horizon east to horizon west.
    Then you claim that's "only 10-30 miles" away?
    So the sun and moon travel at MOST 60 miles but take all day long to do so?

    Give me a break

    You flat-earthers have a LOT of work to do.
    Do you enjoy sticking your foot in your mouth?
    Must be really fun or something cause you're doing it ALL THE TIME.   :facepalm:
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    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Moon Illusion
    « Reply #26 on: March 06, 2018, 06:07:32 AM »
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  • No because average distance to horizon is only 10-30 miles.

    .
    What a load of horse hockey.
    .
    The moon and the sun each take a whole DAY to traverse the sky from horizon east to horizon west.
    Then you claim that's "only 10-30 miles" away?
    So the sun and moon travel at MOST 60 miles but take all day long to do so?

    Give me a break.

    You flat-earthers have a LOT of work to do.
    Do you enjoy sticking your foot in your mouth?
    Must be really fun or something cause you're doing it ALL THE TIME.   :facepalm:
    No dummy.
    Not what I said.
    The average distance to the horizon at any location is 10-30 miles.
    That's as far as you can see with your eyes.
    I have no idea what the actual altitude of the moon is, but I know it's not 238, 000 miles.
    The sun and moon are traveling 25, 000 miles in their circuit each day over the earth.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Moon Illusion
    « Reply #27 on: March 06, 2018, 08:05:33 AM »
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  • No because average distance to horizon is only 10-30 miles.

    So you're saying that we never see the moon except when it's closer than 30 miles from us?

    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Moon Illusion
    « Reply #28 on: March 06, 2018, 08:59:28 AM »
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  • So you're saying that we never see the moon except when it's closer than 30 miles from us?
    As the moon is traveling in its level path in its circuit above the flat plane of earth you will not -cannot- see it until it rises on your horizon at your particular location.
    For most locations, the average distance to the horizon is 10-30 miles.
    You can measure this for yourself with known landmarks at your locatio
    Example: at my western horizon is a particular mountain: that mountain is 30 miles from my house.

    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Moon Illusion
    « Reply #29 on: March 06, 2018, 09:11:11 AM »
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  • Also, it is helpful to remember the Vandenberg rocket launch filmed from Phoenix to understand how altitude affects the visibility of an object breaking over your local horizon. 

    The rocket was going upward higher than a plane. Therefore, it was visible over a greater distance. If it was at a lower altitude the angle would have been too low to see it from Phoenix 400 miles away.

    That's how we know the sun and moon are at a very high altitude.