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Traditional Catholic Faith => Fighting Errors in the Modern World => The Earth God Made - Flat Earth, Geocentrism => Topic started by: apollo on December 22, 2018, 09:23:41 AM

Title: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories
Post by: apollo on December 22, 2018, 09:23:41 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyRJZbNmC7U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyRJZbNmC7U)
 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Wu7LqF8fzk)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Wu7LqF8fzk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Wu7LqF8fzk)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4bfFrPg21g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4bfFrPg21g)



Title: Re: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories
Post by: Ladislaus on December 22, 2018, 01:57:41 PM
It's fitting that you chose the pagan sun god as your screen name.
Title: Re: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories
Post by: cassini on December 22, 2018, 03:14:34 PM
St thomas Aquinas said;

‘The knowledge proper to this science of theology comes through divine revelation and not through natural reason. Therefore, it has no concern to prove principles of other sciences, but only to judge them. Whatever is found in other sciences contrary to any truth of this science of theology must be condemned as false.’ --- (ST, I, Q 1, a 6, ad 2).  

We 'geocentrists' are in fact biblical geocentrists, confirmed in our faith by the Sacred Scriptures, the 1616 decree of Pope Paul V who dogmatised this biblical revelation because it was confirmed as such by all the Fathers of the Church, and after this because of the confirmation of this irreformable decree by Pope Urban VIII in 1633 .

The doctrines of the Catholic Church are all of faith and cannot be proven false by human science.
As Cardinal Bellarmine said, if this is not true as regards a geocentric universe, then it is not true that the feast we are now celebrating is true, that is the Virgin birth of Christ.

As it turned out, by careful investigating, we know a geocentric universe has never been proven wrong. Unlike the Freemasons who invented causes for their solar system, Catholics do not need to invent physical causes to 'prove' God's work. All we need to be sure of is that there is nothing that can scientifically falsify geocentrism.

For centuries they tried, letting Newton's theory fool everyone into believing he had proof that little bodies had to do what the sun caused it to do. Putting their faith into Newton's theory worked for them for centuries until 1871 and 1885 tests showed it was not proven. Along came Albert Einstein who had to admit science cannot prove or falsify the order by way of his special theory of relativity. To do so he had to show Newton's theory was lacking in credibility so he had to invent his own theory of gravity to save a heliocentric solar-system. Since then every physicist of note had to go along with the special theory, making adjustments like inventing dark matter to keep their theory alive.  

Now I have only viewed part 1 of the above and wondered if it was that easy to prove geocentrism false, how come physicists and astronomers for 200 years never figured it out? but as with all these helioers they take theories as facts and if anything does not fit into their theories they think and claim geocentrism is B....x, a word used to try to portray geocentrists as retards, the latter word the Catholic priest Fr Hull used for any who actually believed the Scriptures reveal a true geocentric universe.

I note in this video, he expects biblical and physical geocentrists to be able to explain the forces of nature. If as physicists for a hundred years have been admitting we cannot tell which order the universe works by, this means we do not know the laws of the universe, does't it? But this guy thinks he knows. He tries to falsify the sun cannot do what we see it do by way of geocentrism. It is OK for him to offer a tilted Earth but he cannot envision a God tilted universe that will result in exactly the same observations as the heliocentric version. For him of course a tilted rotating universe to bring days and years and precession is impossible in his scientific trained mind. But for us Catholic geocentrists our God is just as capable of creating physical or divine forces to operate His universe. I also caught the sound of Newton's 'perturbations' to explain his scientific solar system when it goes a little astray. I bet he never even heard of Domenico Cassini who falsified Kepler's and Newton's astronomy with his astronomical findings that relate to orbits following electromagnetic forces, curves found in leaves, snails and blood cells.

So, geocentrists, do not fear that these videos 'prove' geocentrism false. They do using their invented causes, but do not falsify the ability of God to have a moving solar system within a spinning universe, both doing what God makes them do. Nor should we worry that we cannot find out how God does these things, how he could be born of a virgin birth, and physically feed thousands with a few loaves and fish. According to science of today, these things are impossible also so we shouldn't believe they could be true even if the Bible tells us the happened. Well most of us here believe they are true.

For over 100 years the observable physical universe has two ways of explanation, a Copernica heliocentric way, or an adjusted Tycho de Brahe geocentric way. The Special theory of Einstein's has been falsified many times. The one I love is Walter van der Kamp's falsification based on stellar aberration. This SA is a fact of observation and can only be explained in a geocentric universe.










Title: Re: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories
Post by: klasG4e on December 22, 2018, 03:40:14 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyRJZbNmC7U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyRJZbNmC7U)
 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Wu7LqF8fzk)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Wu7LqF8fzk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Wu7LqF8fzk)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4bfFrPg21g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4bfFrPg21g)

Apollo, do you consider yourself a traditional Catholic?  What exactly possesses you to promote this stuff?  Do you think the person(s) going under the name Cool Hard Logic who put these blasphemous videos up has/have a single good thing to say about the Catholic Church or Catholic Faith?  He/she/they DO NOT.

There is an individual by the name of Robert Sungenis who has spent most of his adult life at the service of defending the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of God.  If you are a Catholic and love the Catholic Faith and Holy Mother Church you would do well to look at Sungenis' answer to CHL both in the video and full transcript linked below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3ysizkuL_g

This is a rebuttal to Cool Hard Logic's series on "Testing Geocentrism". This is the first in a series that we are producing based on the White Paper written by Robert Sungenis, PhD. The original full rebuttal can be read here: http://galileowaswrong.com/wp-content... (https://www.youtube.com/redirect?q=http%3A%2F%2Fgalileowaswrong.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F06%2FBullocks_Rebuttal-2.pdf&v=G3ysizkuL_g&event=video_description&redir_token=vLvDCK7E2dcp0vBk53MD2WmBmr18MTU0NTU5OTk0NEAxNTQ1NTEzNTQ0) Visit http://www.galileowaswrong.com (https://www.youtube.com/redirect?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.galileowaswrong.com&v=G3ysizkuL_g&event=video_description&redir_token=vLvDCK7E2dcp0vBk53MD2WmBmr18MTU0NTU5OTk0NEAxNTQ1NTEzNTQ0) for more free information regarding Geocentrism.
Title: Re: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories
Post by: klasG4e on December 22, 2018, 03:44:08 PM
Here is the first page of Robert Sungenis' rebuttal to "Cool Hand Logic."

1
Rebuttal to Cool Hard Logic’s Attack on Geocentrism
By Robert Sungenis, Ph.D. author of
Galileo Was Wrong: The Church Was Right
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyRJZbNmC7U
R. Sungenis
: As you can see from the above snapshot, prepare yourself for not only an X-rated but a
pseudo-scientific display when you watch the Youtube
videos of someone going by the moniker “Cool
Hard Logic” (CHL). Besides changing the name of the Holy Bible to “Holy Shit” and using the F-word
consistently through its videos, an assortment of many
other childish rantings are displayed by a person
who is obviously unwilling to give his real name. To
put it bluntly, the video is anything but “cool hard
logic.” It is more like warm, soft, dodo, both cult
urally and scientifically. Rest assured, however, it is
designed to intimidate the average person as it bombard
s him with a pedantic display of mathematical
equations that purport to prove the points of the
author, but in reality the display only shows his
ignorance, both of his own heliocentrism and, more im
portantly, of the geocentric system he wishes to
discredit.

Title: Re: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories
Post by: roscoe on December 22, 2018, 05:47:29 PM
Sungenis doesn't know Anything about Galileo case-- which is about PHYSICS, not Astronomy.

What Galileo did in 1616  was hardly original-- adopt the 3 part theory of Copernicus & demand that it be accepted as Dogma b4 there was any proof.

We now know that the first article of Copernicus( E rev around S) is true while articles 2( S is fixed in position) & 3( S is center of U) are false. So the Church was right to censor the mostly false Copernicanism.

See Pietro Redondi, Galileo Heretic for info on Galileo's errors re: Physics( atomism) & how this is related to Eucharist.

:cheers:
Title: Re: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories
Post by: Stanley N on December 22, 2018, 07:19:54 PM
There is an individual by the name of Robert Sungenis who has spent most of his adult life at the service of defending the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of God.
Perhaps, but that's assuming geocentrism were true. Which you have not shown.

Now, if geocentrism is false, he would have not only wasted "most of his adult life", he would have even harmed the Church by misleading people, driving some people away from the Church, and giving others a false notion of the faith. And endangered his own salvation in the process.

While I'm here: Sungenis' video near the end focuses on asking why the rotation of the earth is not slowing. As a matter of fact, science currently says that it is slowing - and we have leap seconds now and then in part to account for this.

For over 100 years the observable physical universe has two ways of explanation, a Copernica heliocentric way, or an adjusted Tycho de Brahe geocentric way. The Special theory of Einstein's has been falsified many times. The one I love is Walter van der Kamp's falsification based on stellar aberration. This SA is a fact of observation and can only be explained in a geocentric universe.
What "geocentric universe" are you thinking of?

If the goal is a "model" that only fits observation to some degree of accuracy, infinite possible models could do that, not just two. That's kinematics. On the other hand, kinetics, or explaining the forces or causes involved - and making predictions - is something else.

Does your "geocentric universe" predict anything? Take something simple: could you predict from within your geocentric model where a satellite should be, in order to be geosynchronous?

Now you are claiming that special relativity has been falsified "many times". No reference given, not even for the seemingly specific falsification you name. Can you provide peer reviewed verification that special relativity is "falsified". (I'm putting "falsified" in quotes because obviously SR is a special case of general relativity, so it wouldn't be expected to "work" where GR is needed - much like Newtonian physics is good except where SR or GR is needed.)

It is curious that people who have no apparent background in astronomy, science OR theology wish to pass judgment on several hundred years of thought and observation and attempt to redefine an entire field. What hubris.
Title: Re: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories
Post by: klasG4e on December 22, 2018, 09:25:36 PM
Stan, just to be clear Sungenis does not claim in any of his writings that science has proven or can prove geocentrism.  As a matter of fact, his position is that science can not prove geocentrism, nor that it can prove heliocentrism.

Sungenis has merely amassed, presented, and explained that which supports geocentrism in terms of Sacred Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium.  At the same time he has gathered, presented, and explained a great deal of scientific evidence which appears to him and many others to support a geocentric universe.

Sungenis does not assume geocentrism is true.  He accepts it as true as a matter of his well informed Catholic faith.  So do I.  You apparently don't.  So be it.

You state: "Now, if geocentrism is false, he [Sungenis] would have not only wasted 'most of his adult life', he would have even harmed the Church by misleading people, driving some people away from the Church, and giving others a false notion of the faith. And endangered his own salvation in the process."  Quite an amazing thing for you to say -- especially when you realize that (as far as I know) no Catholic cleric with any authority over Sungenis has ever directed a single iota of warning, threat, admonition, etc. to him concerning all that he has done in the area of public dissemination/teaching/promotiopn of information concerning geocentrism.  Absolutely nothing, nada, zilch!  He remains a Catholic in good within the bosom of Holy Mother Church, even in a Church so corrupted in its human side with modernists who have nothing but contempt for geocentrism.  Hmmm.....that should tell you something.

You also state: "While I'm here: Sungenis' video near the end focuses on asking why the rotation of the earth is not slowing. As a matter of fact, science currently says that it is slowing - and we have leap seconds now and then in part to account for this."  Big deal!  You say as a matter of fact.  So what!  Science says this.  Science says that.  Look at the history of science.  What it "proves" today it "disproves" tomorrow and what it "disproves" tomorrow it "proves" the next day.  Science is true when it's true and false when it's false.  Our Catholic faith is true now and will never be false.  When science does not conflict with our Catholic faith science is true and when it does conflict with our Catholic faith science is false.  I know you don't consider geocentrism to be a matter of the faith.  So be it.

Title: Re: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories
Post by: cassini on December 23, 2018, 01:42:07 PM
Sungenis doesn't know Anything about Galileo case-- which is about PHYSICS, not Astronomy.

What Galileo did in 1616  was hardly original-- adopt the 3 part theory of Copernicus & demand that it be accepted as Dogma b4 there was any proof.

We now know that the first article of Copernicus( E rev around S) is true while articles 2( S is fixed in position) & 3( S is center of U) are false. So the Church was right to censor the mostly false Copernicanism.

See Pietro Redondi, Galileo Heretic for info on Galileo's errors re: Physics( atomism) & how this is related to Eucharist.

:cheers:

Ah, roscoe, so you are human and not a machine. Ok, we know you think E revs around S, but some of us are certain that human observation cannot prove which orbits around which. But God does, and He says in his Bible that it is the universe that rotates around the Earth. Some of us believe this, others like yourself do not.

Now how good is your knowledge about the Galileo case? I see above you accept Redondi's version that it was about atomism, 'which is about physics, not astronomy.'

How many times do we have to show you guys have it all wrong. So desperate are you to falsify the actual events of 1616 and 1633 that you will grab at any chance to show us biblical geocentrists we are wrong on this or that and when we dermonstrater to everyone you get it wrong you ignore the corrections, and simply carry on in your illusions. It really bothers me how anybody can ignore facts and retain a certain belief. I, klas, Ladis and others were all educated to be heliocentrists, long-agers and evolutionists. But once we saw the evidence for them was totally biased on ideological grounds we began to see the truth was as Genesis told us.
So, as regards Redondi's thesis, well I too read his book but was not impressed or convinced. The facts of the Galileo case are out there, recorded in 6,000 books and all show the Church condemned Galileo's heliocentrism, NOT for anything to do with atomism.

Now I know you guys do not accept anything coming from us geocentrists, so I will quote the latest scholarly book on the subject, the most detailed ever written. It is in Burned Alive, by the heliocentrist and as I gather from his books Catholic Church hater A Martinez.

'This letter's importance has been emphasised by historian Pietro Redondi, who argued that it shows how an informed reader quickly understood Galileo's work and, allegedly, that it reveals the relevance of the atomism of Democritus, [an evolution of atoms has happened, exactly as Fr Robinson, SSPX teaches, into the physical universe we observe] which was distained as heretical. Historians have carefully analysed this argument, since an early manuscript report on Galileo's book of 1623, did discuss atomism. However, historians conclude that despite the significance of atomism in that early book, there is insufficient evidence that it was an issue when Inquisitors read Galileo's book of 1623.' p. 193 [Martinez probably meant Galileo's book of 1633, the cause of Galileo's trial.]
Title: Re: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories
Post by: cassini on December 23, 2018, 02:05:33 PM
If the goal is a "model" that only fits observation to some degree of accuracy, infinite possible models could do that, not just two. That's kinematics. On the other hand, kinetics, or explaining the forces or causes involved - and making predictions - is something else.

It is perfectly obvious to see how desperate you helioers are to try to falsify certain statements of biblical geocentrists who have done their homework. I mention Walter van der Kamps falsification of Einstein 's Special theory of relativity that states

‘We know that the difference between a heliocentric and a geocentric theory is one of motions only, and that such difference has no physical significance…’ --- Sir Fred Hoyle: Astronomy and Cosmology, 1975, p.416. 

Or as you put it above:

‘Since the issue is one of relative motion only, there are infinitely many exact equivalent descriptions referred to different centers – in principle, any point will do, the Moon, Jupiter…’--- Sir Fred Hoyle, Nicolaus Copernicus, 1973, p.1.

Now Stanley, you haven't a clue how van der Kamp proved the above and your rhetoric about kinematics as pie in the sky. But here is his summation:

‘Mediate for a few moments and the truth will dawn on you. Such a single observation, one of momentous importance we have here. According to the ruling relativity it makes with regard to the cosmos that the astronomers observe no physical difference, pontificates Sir Fred Hoyle, whether we declare the universe centered on the sun or the Earth. This profession, you will already have realized, is false. The two universes that this contention envisages could not physically be more different than they are. The Earth-centered one basically requires a Stellatum like that of Antiquity and the Middle-Ages to account for what we “here below” diurnally and annually observe [STELLAR ABERRATION]. The never proven, nor provable, gospel of Galileo has in the long run reduced us to little blobs of thinking jelly on a pellet of stardust corkscrewing from somewhere into the nowhere of nothingless. The Sun-centered hypothesis truly “saves the appearance,” but the Earth-centered view only will do this if we re-introduce the Stellatum of yore and arrange the stars in that celestial sphere. A simple observation, but the Einsteinian theories are thereby condemned irrefutably. This, in a manner of speaking, puts us back to square one. That is in the cul-de-sac into which after 1887 classical science [M&M] found itself….

     And I have to stress the irrefutability of my conclusion. For here we have much more than a-by means of experimentation acquired “disproof” that can be overcome by suitable ad hocs. We have a logical and ontological impossibility. The structure of the universe that first-hand observations prompt us to extrapolate from an Earth at rest is totally different from that of a Sun at rest. Relativity maintains that there will be no physical differences between the two. Relativity is therefore wrong and Einstein thereby dethroned.’ --- Walter van der Kamp: The Cosmos… p.34-35.
Title: Re: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories
Post by: cassini on December 23, 2018, 02:24:32 PM
Does your "geocentric universe" predict anything? Take something simple: could you predict from within your geocentric model where a satellite should be, in order to be geosynchronous?


What a silly question. Determining where a satellite is orbiting the earth has nothing to do with a particular universal model. But while I am on it I will show you who uses the Geocentric model to determine other cosmic bodies.

When it comes to working out eclipses etc., according to the Encyclopaedia Britannica, it is the geocentric reality mathematics that is used. But watch how the Encyclopaedia Britannica (Eclipse, p.869) plays mind-games when admitting this:

 ‘For this purpose [making calculations] it is convenient first to consider the Earth as fixed and to suppose the observer looking out from its centre…’  

Then there is space-flight Stanley, all heliocentric, yes? Well think again.
let us now read what a letter to the New Scientist magazine of Aug. 16, 1979 had to say about which system is simpler:
 
Royal Air Force College
Cranwell, Lincolnshire, England.
‘Sir, ... One can of course believe anything one likes as long as the consequences of the belief are trivial. But when survival [and success] depends on that belief, then it matters that belief corresponds to manifest reality. We therefore teach navigators that the stars are fixed to the Celestial sphere, which is centred on a fixed Earth, and around which it rotates in accordance with laws clearly deducible from common-sense observation. The sun and moon move across the inner surface of this sphere, and hence perforce go around the Earth. This means that students of navigation must unlearn a lot of confused dogma they learned in school. Most of them find this remarkably easy, because dogma is as may be, but the real world is as we perceive it to be. If Andrew Hill will look in the Journal of Navigation he will find that the Earth-centred Universe is alive and well, whatever his readings of the Spectator may suggest.  Yours, Darcy Reddyhoff.’
Title: Re: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories
Post by: cassini on December 23, 2018, 02:49:20 PM
Now you are claiming that special relativity has been falsified "many times". No reference given, not even for the seemingly specific falsification you name. Can you provide peer reviewed verification that special relativity is "falsified". (I'm putting "falsified" in quotes because obviously SR is a special case of general relativity, so it wouldn't be expected to "work" where GR is needed - much like Newtonian physics is good except where SR or GR is needed.)

It is curious that people who have no apparent background in astronomy, science OR theology wish to pass judgment on several hundred years of thought and observation and attempt to redefine an entire field. What hubris.

Here then is the usual way the Earthmovers dismiss any objection to their mind-science, they make no allowances that anyone who is not being paid to kerep therir ideological cosmology alive can study the subject and make their own mind up about them.

Yes, Einstein had a mixture of Relativity that depended on so much theory and proofs that it would take an hour typing to go through all of it. Perhaps the best account I ever read was Gwynnes advice that Einstein's (Stanley's) physics was not only nonsense but simple nonsense.


   Dr Arthur Lynch, another distinguished mathematician, in his book named The Case Against Einstein (1932), quotes M. Bouasse, Professor of Physics at the University of Toulouse, as speaking of the ‘insanities of the Relativists.’
   In 1971, yet another mathematician, Dr Louis Essen, wrote a devastating analysis that included the statement that Einstein’s relativity theories were not physical theories, but a number of sometimes contradicting assumptions. Be suspicious then, as to how Einstein’s absurdities became the ruling paradigm in a discipline that considers itself in the category of ‘rocket-science.’

Sir Arthur Eddington, who played an important part in promoting Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity, once wrote:

‘Beyond even the imagination of Dean Swift; Gulliver regarded the Lilliputians as a race of dwarfs; and the Lilliputians regarded Gulliver as a giant. That is natural. If the Lilliputians had appeared dwarfs to Gulliver, and Gulliver had appeared a dwarf to the Lilliputians – but no; that is too absurd even for fiction, and is an idea only to be found in the sober pages of science.

At that lecture at Trinity College in Dublin in 1996, and we were there, engineer Al. Kelly read a paper that, while speculative itself, did show the STR had been empirically falsified many times. Nevertheless, within the audience there were professors who were employed by that same university to teach this nonsense to paying students. Within minutes of Kelly’s unassailable thesis, these same relativists were up on their feet telling all and sundry that Kelly ‘really didn’t fully comprehend’ the theory he had just falsified. We have no doubt the next day Kelly’s debunking synthesis was history and the STR was being taught to a new batch of physics students in that same world-renowned university in whose lecture hall the Special Theory was seen for what it really is, patent intellectual nonsense, mathematical magic.

Let me give all an example of Einstein's 'science.' In a book called Special Relativity, University Mathematical Texts by Wolfgang Rindler. The contents of such books as these are not common knowledge so remain within the confines of various physics departments in educational institutions for future physicists, well clear of the psychiatric department for obvious reasons, as anyone could see if they read it carefully. First the introduction in it:


‘The first edition of Professor Rindler’s book [1939] was welcomed as a clear and concise introduction to the ideas of special relativity… An important feature is the provision of many original exercises, with hints and answers.

the question poses that a man carrying a 20 ft. long pole runs into a room 10 ft. long and closes the door behind him. It then asks how it could be done in a room only 5 ft. long. The answer of course is if he enters the room at the speed of light. No, he and his pole are not splattered against the wall to allow the door to close; he and his pole simply shrink. Here you can now see Einstein’s STR for what it really is, an illusion, a mathematical absurdity, and wonder at the power that these Earthmovers have wielded for so long, a power that can get university professors not only believing such nonsense but getting students year after year to believe in it. But more than that, how can such nonsense be accepted as the premise for thousands of cosmologists and physicists to build up their belief system as to how the universe began and now operates. Answer this question, they tell their students, get a well-paid job and even find the mind of God.
Title: Re: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories
Post by: apollo on December 23, 2018, 03:34:46 PM
It's fitting that you chose the pagan sun god as your screen name.
Apollo was an Egyptian hermit.  Another ad hominum attack, because you cannot disprove any of it. 
I wonder what percentages of your replies at Cathinfo are ad hominum attacks ... about 90%.
Title: Re: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories
Post by: apollo on December 23, 2018, 03:38:08 PM
St thomas Aquinas said;

‘The knowledge proper to this science of theology comes through divine revelation and not through natural reason. Therefore, it has no concern to prove principles of other sciences, but only to judge them. Whatever is found in other sciences contrary to any truth of this science of theology must be condemned as false.’ --- (ST, I, Q 1, a 6, ad 2).  
Geocentrism vs Heliocentrism is NOT about Theology, sorry. 
It's about the science of ....................... Astronomy.  


Title: Re: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories
Post by: apollo on December 23, 2018, 03:40:45 PM
We 'geocentrists' are in fact biblical geocentrists, confirmed in our faith by the Sacred Scriptures, the 1616 decree of Pope Paul V who dogmatised this biblical revelation because it was confirmed as such by all the Fathers of the Church, and after this because of the confirmation of this irreformable decree by Pope Urban VIII in 1633 .
Sorry, it's not an infallible dogma of the Catholic Church.  Or else the pope in 1822 is a heretic. 
Are you a sedevacantist ?  Are you saying all the popes starting in 1822 are not popes ?
Title: Re: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories
Post by: apollo on December 23, 2018, 03:46:13 PM
As it turned out, by careful investigating, we know a geocentric universe has never been proven wrong. 
The videos at the beginning of this pose do just that ... prove Geocentrism wrong (false, idiotic, bullocks). 
You might want to watch them before you pose a million more lines of lies. 
I'm assuming that you can understand the mathematical or scientific arguments in the videos. 
What?  No name calling?  I'm shocked.
Title: Re: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories
Post by: apollo on December 23, 2018, 04:08:38 PM
but do not falsify the ability of God to have a moving solar system within a spinning universe, both doing what God makes them do.
Yes, God could do either Geocentrism or Heliocentrism.  So why believe that He cannot do Heliocentrism.
God could have done the more complicated system (Geocentrism) or the far less complicated system (Heliocentrism).
UNLESS the Geocentrism requires stars to travel faster than the speed of light (if there is nothing faster than light,
God knows).  
Of course, God could have used a simple mathematical system using gravity of the bodies and angular forces, if He
wanted to and created Heliocentrism.  

Title: Re: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories
Post by: apollo on December 23, 2018, 04:19:06 PM
Apollo, do you consider yourself a traditional Catholic?  What exactly possesses you to promote this stuff?  Do you think the person(s) going under the name Cool Hard Logic who put these blasphemous videos up has/have a single good thing to say about the Catholic Church or Catholic Faith?  He/she/they DO NOT.
You have understood the most important point.  Congratulations.  The problem 
is that he is reacting to Catholic Geocentrists the way most of the modern world 
is reacting to them ... running from them.  
What that means is that most of the world is running from ... CathInfo.com 
Is that what you want ?  
You had better be sure that Geocentrism is an INFALLIBLE dogma of the Church
before your judgment day,  else God may ask you why you turned so many people 
away from the Catholic religion, by cramming Geocentrism down their throats ... 
when the pope decreed in 1822 that Heliocentrism is not wrong and Catholics may
believe either way.  
Robert Sungenis is an idiot (just an opinion, proof coming later). 

Title: Re: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories
Post by: apollo on December 23, 2018, 04:24:12 PM
There is an individual by the name of Robert Sungenis who has spent most of his adult life at the service of defending the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of God.  
Sungenis would be well to stick to the Faith and not dabble in Astronomy, because the current position of the
Catholic Church is that Catholics may believe either Geocentrism or Heliocentrism.  Why?  Because it's not 
something the Church considers necessary for salvation. 
Title: Re: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories
Post by: apollo on December 23, 2018, 04:39:42 PM
This is a rebuttal to Cool Hard Logic's series on "Testing Geocentrism". This is the first in a series that we are producing based on the White Paper written by Robert Sungenis, PhD. The original full rebuttal can be read here: http://galileowaswrong.com/wp-content... (https://www.youtube.com/redirect?q=http%3A%2F%2Fgalileowaswrong.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F06%2FBullocks_Rebuttal-2.pdf&v=G3ysizkuL_g&event=video_description&redir_token=vLvDCK7E2dcp0vBk53MD2WmBmr18MTU0NTU5OTk0NEAxNTQ1NTEzNTQ0) Visit http://www.galileowaswrong.com (https://www.youtube.com/redirect?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.galileowaswrong.com&v=G3ysizkuL_g&event=video_description&redir_token=vLvDCK7E2dcp0vBk53MD2WmBmr18MTU0NTU5OTk0NEAxNTQ1NTEzNTQ0) for more free information regarding Geocentrism.
This video says that Kepler and Newton did not know anything about gravity.  
You expect me to watch the rest of the video ... no thanks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_constant
This is what proves Geocentrism false.  Watch the rest of the videos.

I've said this about 10 times on CathInfo.com and I'm really getting
tired of repeating it.  
Even Robert Sungenis agrees with Kepler and Newton's view of our
solar system.  It's the universe outside of our solar system where
he goes nuts and starts talking about "ether", the magical stuff that
we cannot measure.  
Believe what you want,  Nothing and nobody will change you.  Stay
in the dark ages and claim that the papal decree of 1822 is heresy.
Title: Re: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories
Post by: klasG4e on December 23, 2018, 05:45:11 PM
The problem is that he [Cool Hard Logic] is reacting to Catholic Geocentrists the way most of the modern world
is reacting to them ... running from them.  
What that means is that most of the world is running from ... CathInfo.com
Is that what you want ?  
You had better be sure that Geocentrism is an INFALLIBLE dogma of the Church
before your judgment day,  else God may ask you why you turned so many people
away from the Catholic religion, by cramming Geocentrism down their throats ...
when the pope decreed in 1822 that Heliocentrism is not wrong and Catholics may
believe either way.  
Robert Sungenis is an idiot (just an opinion, proof coming later).

Sorry, Apollo.  I already have a solid Catholic confessor and spiritual director.  You need not apply. 

So nice to see that you are apparently worried about poor little old me Apollo, thinking that God may ask me why I -- personally, little old me -- "turned so many people away from the Catholic religion, by cramming Geocentrism down their throats."  (Mea culpa, mea culpa to anyone on CathInfo for my "cramming Geocentrism down their throats."   I hope it wasn't too traumatizing.  Perhaps, I can make it up to you some way.  Just send me a personal message via this web site so I can begin the process. :)
 
You may want to review your history Apollo if you think souls have been lost to hell because of Robert Sungenis' work concerning geocentrism.  The fact of the matter is that the world has done and continues to do a very effective job driving actual Catholics and potential Catholics away from the Church and the Catholic Faith by convincing them that the Church was wrong in its condemnation of geocentrism and that Galileo was right.  The world's constant refrain for well over 200 years has been that if the Church was wrong on Galileo/geocentrism what else has it been wrong on and what is it still wrong on today.

The Catholic Church has always relied on God and the Catholic faith He has bestowed on His Church to save souls, not on science.  The world which is not of Christ and which hates Christ knows this and has thus used the "Galileo was right, the Church was wrong" mantra/refrain as a way to denigrate Holy Mother Church and the Catholic Faith (and by extension the doctrine of the total inerrancy of Sacred Scripture) as a very effective means to weaken the Church and place it on the defensive.  Review your history.  The proof is in the mix.  The world which is not of Christ has been tremendously successful in doing this.

You say, "Robert Sungenis is an idiot."  Such nice words from one who does not hesitate in complaining about being on the receiving end of ad hominem abuse.
Title: Re: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories
Post by: klasG4e on December 23, 2018, 05:52:52 PM
This is what proves Geocentrism false.
Wow!  Apollo says, "This is what proves Geocentrism false."  Wow!  Spread the word!  Spread the word!
Title: Re: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories
Post by: klasG4e on December 23, 2018, 05:59:22 PM

I've said this about 10 times on CathInfo.com and I'm really getting
tired of repeating it.  
Even Robert Sungenis agrees with Kepler and Newton's view of our
solar system.  It's the universe outside of our solar system where
he goes nuts and starts talking about "ether", the magical stuff that
we cannot measure.  
Believe what you want,  Nothing and nobody will change you.  Stay
in the dark ages and claim that the papal decree of 1822 is heresy.

If you really knew and understood what Sungenis teaches you would not engage in such rhetoric unless you simply wished to engage in dishonesty or unless you were under some sort of forced duress to do so.
Title: Re: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories
Post by: roscoe on December 23, 2018, 06:33:30 PM
James Bradly & Newton prove that E is in lateral motion-- they do Not prove Heliocentrism.   :cheers:
Title: Re: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories
Post by: Stanley N on December 23, 2018, 11:10:12 PM
Here then is the usual way the Earthmovers dismiss any objection to their mind-science, they make no allowances that anyone who is not being paid to kerep therir ideological cosmology alive can study the subject and make their own mind up about them.
Someone with a valid falsification of relativity would likely be inducted in his or her national academy of science and be a prime candidate for a Nobel prize. if such a falsification existed, it would be well known. 

Even possible falsifications are quite widely reported, and the data is reviewed by other scientists. (Experts sometimes make mistakes in their analysis, too.)

What a silly question. Determining where a satellite is orbiting the earth has nothing to do with a particular universal model. But while I am on it I will show you who uses the Geocentric model to determine other cosmic bodies.

Geosynchronous orbits around earth would probably be calculated with a geocentric coordinate system, so this should be a softball to you. But the cooordinate system is not the issue. Any coordinate system could be used. 

No, my question is to 1) find out whether you think the earth is rotating or not, and 2) determine whether your geocentric system has any predictive ability.

The standard model can determine geosynchronous orbit for earth, mars, the moon, or any other body using the same method. As far as I can tell, a geocentric "universal model" means that some other mechanism makes an orbit geosynchronous for earth - and at exactly the same location that would be calculated if earth behaved just like any other planet, even though geocentrists think it doesn't behave like any other planet. 
Title: Re: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories
Post by: roscoe on December 23, 2018, 11:18:16 PM
I Would like to remind the Forum that the Pruthenic Tables of Copernicus( who hypothesized that E rev around S) are incorporated into the Gregorian Calendar.  :fryingpan:
Title: Re: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories
Post by: Stanley N on December 24, 2018, 12:07:35 AM
You also state: "While I'm here: Sungenis' video near the end focuses on asking why the rotation of the earth is not slowing. As a matter of fact, science currently says that it is slowing - and we have leap seconds now and then in part to account for this."  Big deal!  You say as a matter of fact.  So what!  Science says this.  Science says that.  Look at the history of science.  What it "proves" today it "disproves" tomorrow and what it "disproves" tomorrow it "proves" the next day.  Science is true when it's true and false when it's false.
One of his "rebuttal" arguments is wrong according to what should be common knowledge. It's not a "big deal" but it's worth noting.

Then you go off about science changing? What is that about? An ability to adapt to new data would seem like a generally good thing for a science (as well as for a person). Do you think the science of theology is immune from change or development?
Title: Re: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories
Post by: cassini on December 24, 2018, 11:30:56 AM
Sorry, it's not an infallible dogma of the Catholic Church.  Or else the pope in 1822 is a heretic.
Are you a sedevacantist ?  Are you saying all the popes starting in 1822 are not popes ?

I have now come to the conclusion that the 'scientific' arguments on this thread have reached their limit and need to end.

I will summarise the part science can play in regard to to H or G.

Misconceptions about the nature and practice of science abound, and are often held by otherwise respectable practicing scientists themselves. Unfortunately, there are many other misconceptions about science. One of the most common of these concerns the so-called “scientific proofs.” Contrary to popular belief however, there is no such thing as a scientific proof. Proofs exist only in mathematics and logic, not in science. Mathematics and logic are both closed, self-contained systems of propositions, whereas science is empirical and deals with nature as it exists. The primary criterion and standard of evaluation of scientific theory is evidence, not proof. All else equal, scientists prefer theories for which there is more and better evidence to those for which there is less. Proofs are not the currency of science.’---Satoshi Kanazawa: The Scientific Fundamentalist, published on Nov. 16, 2008.

What motivated me, and Klas and Laus and others is to try to rescue the Church's reputation of having gotten it so wrong in Faith and science as regards the Galileo case. For centuries the Catholic Church has been ridiculed over its decision to defend a geocentric reading of Scripture, something the Church is supposed to have divine guidance in doing correctly. Alas, having done what they did in 1820-35, it is now near impossible for the truth to prevail. This can be illustrated by the above accusation, 'Sorry, it's not an infallible dogma of the Catholic Church.  Or else the pope in 1822 is a heretic. Are you a sedevacantist ?  Are you saying all the popes starting in 1822 are not popes?'

Now there is nothing new as regards this question, for it is the rock upon which the heliocentric heresy musd be defended by Catholics of the same Church that defined heliocentrism formal heresy in 1616 and 1633. To prevent the 1820-- popes from heresy, the heresy itself must be denied. How they did that post 1820 is recorded in thousands of books, encyclopedias, articles and websites by the thousands. First deny the 1616 decree had any real canonical authority, conjure up the idea that it was temporary using Bellarmine or Augustine if necessary, that it was a disciplinary decree, but most of all for the Stanleys and Apollos of this world, defend the once heretical heliocentrism as proven, just as the popes of 1741, 1820 and 1835 were told. as we see above Apollo tries to save the popes from 1820 from accusations of heresy. And who really can blame them, for it is a practice that has endured for hundreds of years.

The truth however, is most complex but as the Scriptures says, 'the truth will out.' What is necessary to do is separate the Spotless Bride of Christ from the faults of it popes, theologians and flock.

Now it is recorded thousands and thousands of times what happened in 1600, 1616, 1644, 1741, 1820 and 1835. Using the Holy Office set up to chase heresy from the Church, its reigning pope of the time used it to define a fixed-sun belief formal heresy. Galileo was condemned as a suspected herertic in 1633 for making public this belief in his book Dialogue. This decree of 1616 was papal, defining a matter of faith as it is revealed in the Scriptures. For 200 years every pope adhered to this decree that had been confirmed as absolute in 1633.

In 1820 however, Pope Pius VII was told the heliocentrism of modern astronomers was proven true by science, and that the heliocentrism defined as formal heresy was a violent one. It is recorded that Fr Olivieri agreed with Fr Anfossi of the Holy Office that the 1616 decree was papal and irreformable and should remain so forever. So, the popes then allowed books written by modern astronomers on heliocentrism to be read by the Flock without any fear that they contained heresy. We see then that no pope was what we call a formal heretic, a material heretic probably, but under canon law this is not deliberate so there is no blame or punishment attached to it.

So now we separate the two. The veracity of divine protection of a papal decree defining faith or morals, the 1616 decree, was never questioned or changed by any pope in history. Not even when popes and churchmen believed heliocentrism was a fact of nature did they even dare try to deny the authority of the 1616 decree. That is MIRACULOUS given the circuмstances. Certainly popes etc., lost faith in the dogma of geocentrism (formal heresy defines the subject matter dogma) and granted imprimaturs to helio books, but none defied the 1616 decree. They only allowed books that gave a non-heretical heliocentrism as they were led to believe. Allowing books to be read was not a rejection of the Church's 1616 decree and was never meant to be. This account of the 1820-1835 U-turn is new as the docuмents recording the circuмstances have only come out in very recent years. Here on Catholic info, a forum that allows discussion out of faith in Catholicism, a forum that had faith in the traditional divine protection for such decrees, the truth is now OUT and no pope can be accused of teaching the 1616 heresy.

'Sorry, it's not an infallible dogma of the Catholic Church.  Or else the pope in 1822 is a heretic. Are you a sedevacantist ?  Are you saying all the popes starting in 1822 are not popes?'

However, then, as today, as we see above, there are those who deny the Church of 1616 its infallible truth and continue to defend the heresy, that the sun is fixed relative to an orbiting Earth. They will even defend the idea that there is physical proof for that heresy. As we see above, their version leads to popes being accused of heretics if one defends the Church of 1616 in its interpretation of Scripture. It also infers the Church of 1616, its popes, Bellarmine and all its theologians, made a mistake that divine protection is supposed not to allow. It is they who undermine Catholicism by preventing TRUTH for prevailing. Surely we all now see how Satan fooled churchmen into believing the 1616 decree was proven wrong, and now that the truth shows the Church was never wrong in 1616 and 1633, and did not reject or deny these decrees in 1820 ort 1835, his only hope is to rely on those who still believe heliocentrism is a fact.
Title: Re: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories
Post by: klasG4e on December 24, 2018, 11:32:54 AM
One of his "rebuttal" arguments is wrong according to what should be common knowledge. It's not a "big deal" but it's worth noting.

Then you go off about science changing? What is that about? An ability to adapt to new data would seem like a generally good thing for a science (as well as for a person). Do you think the science of theology is immune from change or development?
No use going on with you Stan since you consistently have a penchant for mischaracterizing what I say.
Title: Re: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories
Post by: Stanley N on December 24, 2018, 08:37:46 PM
No use going on with you Stan since you consistently have a penchant for mischaracterizing what I say.
I asked you what you meant. Is it now a problem for you to answer questions about what you said
Quite an amazing thing for you to say -- especially when you realize that (as far as I know) no Catholic cleric with any authority over Sungenis has ever directed a single iota of warning, threat, admonition, etc. to him concerning all that he has done in the area of public dissemination/teaching/promotiopn of information concerning geocentrism.  Absolutely nothing, nada, zilch! 
I don't see how what I said was "amazing". We will be judged on everything we do or do not do. If someone were to spread errors about the Church in popular media, don't you think think there might be some accounting at death?
Title: Re: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories
Post by: Neil Obstat on December 26, 2018, 01:39:31 AM
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 I, klas, Ladis and others were all educated to be heliocentrists, long-agers and evolutionists. But once we saw the evidence for them was totally biased on ideological grounds we began to see the truth was as Genesis told us.
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As for me, public (as well as parochial) schools TRIED to educate me in heliocentrism, but I had a mother who taught me that history has more to learn about it, and the Church's infallible authority trumps whatever they're dishing out lately in academia.
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She got her master's degree after raising her children, and in the process had to take some science classes, during which time she shared her anxiety with me regarding her conflicts with Protestant and/or atheist professors. Her strongest opposition to their pedantic pride came regarding the topic of evolution. So I was blessed to have a mother who not only stood firm against the lies of so-called modern science (evolution is not science). 
.
She was not sure what to make of geocentrism as she was not good at mathematics and couldn't make heads or tails of material physics. 
But I took her fundamental faith and learned physics and math and statics and cosmology on my own, keeping in mind that evolution is a hoax. 
.
So I kept heliocentrism in a quarantined back room for many years, until Sungenis came along, and his work has given me a lot to think about.
And I like to think about this kind of thing. 
.
Paula Haigh (RIP) has been an inspiration, too. Stephen Heiner's timely interviews with her are quite interesting. They made me wish I had taken the time to go visit Miss Haigh in the nursing home where she spent her last years. I think she would have enjoyed meeting me, and I her. But I passed up the chance to have a meeting of minds with my contemporary before she died, to my eternal shame. 
Title: Re: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories
Post by: cassini on December 26, 2018, 05:37:03 AM
Wow Neil, that is a wonderful story. God bless you mam. Of interest is that when I married my wife was a geo creationist. At that time I was a full blown intellectual helio-evolutionist. I put her illusion down to the fact I probably got a better education than she did or I was better able to understand helio-evoluition than she could. She based her belief on mere reasoning and refused to believe otherwise. Then we met an American who gave me a book on creation and the absurdity of evolution, especially the fact that every fossil ever found was complete. 'Life doesn't work without all the parts complete, finished and functioning' he said, 'so the evolution of something is pure simple nonsense.' They had to be created 'in all their substance, according to their kind' as the dogma says.  It took me a few minutes to see this clearly and I felt like a complete fool. Later, when, thank God, a man called Paul Ellwanger contacted me and sent me regular updates on the similar heliocentric fraud at his own expence, I was free of that worldwide fraud to deny God His ex nihilo crteation. There is no doubt the truth made me a better Catholic in my love for God. Now I see Him all the time in his creation as the dogma says I will. I watch many nature programmes and as the secrets of each creature is found, I see the perfection as having a divine planner. For example, the other day I watched a 'how its made' programme. They made shuttlecocks, using feathers. They then explained how the aerodynamics of a single swan feather is designed for perfect flight and they used such shaped feathers. In another I saw how the back of a certain insect had a skin that allowed it to pass through a substance that would kill others. The perfection of nature is absolute, each creature given a different ability to survive. No wonder Genesis said it was 'Good.' I watch the different cloud formations, some tiny some gigantic and see God putting beauty in the heavens above. Every few days, I get a different picture of the world with its mountains, valleys and plains on Google, every one more beautiful than the last. His perfections never end and each one reminds me of Him. And then I think of the billions who were mind-programmed into giving all this beauty to evolution, and I see how the Devil works.

Needless to say, my wife gets a constant laugh when I admit to my 'intellectual illusion.'

Finally, I too had correspondence from Paula Haigh. A friend who visited her in that home told me she quickly fell into dementia during her last two years of her life. And yes Neil, Catholicism can thank Paula and Paul for defending the Catholic doctrine on Creation.
Title: Re: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories
Post by: Ladislaus on December 26, 2018, 02:48:00 PM
apollo is very likely some Masonic anti-Catholic troll.
Title: Re: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories
Post by: klasG4e on December 30, 2018, 05:28:16 PM
I asked you what you meant. Is it now a problem for you to answer questions about what you said? I don't see how what I said was "amazing". We will be judged on everything we do or do not do. If someone were to spread errors about the Church in popular media, don't you think think there might be some accounting at death?

OK, maybe I was a bit too abrupt with you Stan.  So to backtrack, here's what I said: "Science says this.  Science says that.  Look at the history of science.  What it 'proves' today it "disproves" tomorrow and what it 'disproves' tomorrow it 'proves' the next day.  Science is true when it's true and false when it's false."  So just exactly what is it that you don't understand about that assertion?

As for your previous statement at December 22, 2018, 07:19:54 PM, "Perhaps, but that's assuming geocentrism were true. Which you have not shown," I would respond by saying that science cannot prove with any absolute certainty that geocentrism is true and neither I nor Sungenis have ever tried to establish any absolute proof of geocentrism via science.  In that regard, all we can do and have done is to point out various things which would be indicative of geocentrism via the natural sciences which Sungenis has docuмented in his written work to a great extent.  On the other hand I believe as does Sungenis that a traditional literal reading of Sacred Scripture does support an absolute certainty of geocentrism.  The Fathers of the Church and the Magisterium have been shown to "second the notion!"  You, unlike myself,  apparently do not accept geocentrism as being of the faith.  Sungenis in his writings as well as Cassini and myself in various threads on this forum have testified as to why we do hold that geocentrism is of the faith.

As for your my statement, "Now, if geocentrism is false, he [Sungenis] would have not only wasted 'most of his adult life', he would have even harmed the Church by misleading people, driving some people away from the Church, and giving others a false notion of the faith. And endangered his own salvation in the process," you don't see why that sounds "amazing" to me.  Perhaps, this will help you in understanding, if I were to say, "Now, if geocentrism is true, all those people who have taught it to be false have wasted all their time teaching it to be false and if they were Catholics they have even harmed the Church by misleading people, driving people away from the Church (such as the many people who may have concluded that since the Church got it wrong with Galileo and its interpretation of Scripture it must not be the true Church) and giving others a false notion of the faith."  In actuality, I certainly wouldn't say that and I thus remain amazed that you would say the reverse of it about Sungenis.  The point is that you apparently want to make Sungenis look bad, not so much in saying it directly, but in casting aspersions by way of casting these uncalled for doubts about his eternal salvation.  That I find not only amazing, but despicable. 
Title: Re: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories
Post by: Stanley N on December 30, 2018, 07:02:57 PM
Perhaps, this will help you in understanding, if I were to say, "Now, if geocentrism is true, all those people who have taught it to be false have wasted all their time teaching it to be false and if they were Catholics they have even harmed the Church by misleading people, driving people away from the Church (such as the many people who may have concluded that since the Church got it wrong with Galileo and its interpretation of Scripture it must not be the true Church) and giving others a false notion of the faith." 
Why not? Seems legitimate to me.
Title: Re: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories
Post by: Neil Obstat on December 31, 2018, 02:51:35 AM
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Why not? Seems legitimate to me.
.
What "seems legitimate" to you? The quote you're replying to has several subjects. "Why not" what?!?
Title: Re: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories
Post by: Neil Obstat on December 31, 2018, 02:54:10 AM
.
apollo is very likely some Masonic anti-Catholic troll.
Now that we've cleared that up, I think I'll have another beer.  :cheers: