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Author Topic: Modern Science Bashes Traditional Catholic Geocentrists & Dr Sungenis' Theories  (Read 3555 times)

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Offline apollo

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  • As it turned out, by careful investigating, we know a geocentric universe has never been proven wrong. 
    The videos at the beginning of this pose do just that ... prove Geocentrism wrong (false, idiotic, bullocks). 
    You might want to watch them before you pose a million more lines of lies. 
    I'm assuming that you can understand the mathematical or scientific arguments in the videos. 
    What?  No name calling?  I'm shocked.


    Offline apollo

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  • but do not falsify the ability of God to have a moving solar system within a spinning universe, both doing what God makes them do.
    Yes, God could do either Geocentrism or Heliocentrism.  So why believe that He cannot do Heliocentrism.
    God could have done the more complicated system (Geocentrism) or the far less complicated system (Heliocentrism).
    UNLESS the Geocentrism requires stars to travel faster than the speed of light (if there is nothing faster than light,
    God knows).  
    Of course, God could have used a simple mathematical system using gravity of the bodies and angular forces, if He
    wanted to and created Heliocentrism.  



    Offline apollo

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  • Apollo, do you consider yourself a traditional Catholic?  What exactly possesses you to promote this stuff?  Do you think the person(s) going under the name Cool Hard Logic who put these blasphemous videos up has/have a single good thing to say about the Catholic Church or Catholic Faith?  He/she/they DO NOT.
    You have understood the most important point.  Congratulations.  The problem 
    is that he is reacting to Catholic Geocentrists the way most of the modern world 
    is reacting to them ... running from them.  
    What that means is that most of the world is running from ... CathInfo.com 
    Is that what you want ?  
    You had better be sure that Geocentrism is an INFALLIBLE dogma of the Church
    before your judgment day,  else God may ask you why you turned so many people 
    away from the Catholic religion, by cramming Geocentrism down their throats ... 
    when the pope decreed in 1822 that Heliocentrism is not wrong and Catholics may
    believe either way.  
    Robert Sungenis is an idiot (just an opinion, proof coming later). 


    Offline apollo

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  • There is an individual by the name of Robert Sungenis who has spent most of his adult life at the service of defending the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of God.  
    Sungenis would be well to stick to the Faith and not dabble in Astronomy, because the current position of the
    Catholic Church is that Catholics may believe either Geocentrism or Heliocentrism.  Why?  Because it's not 
    something the Church considers necessary for salvation. 

    Offline apollo

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  • This is a rebuttal to Cool Hard Logic's series on "Testing Geocentrism". This is the first in a series that we are producing based on the White Paper written by Robert Sungenis, PhD. The original full rebuttal can be read here: http://galileowaswrong.com/wp-content... Visit http://www.galileowaswrong.com for more free information regarding Geocentrism.
    This video says that Kepler and Newton did not know anything about gravity.  
    You expect me to watch the rest of the video ... no thanks.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_constant
    This is what proves Geocentrism false.  Watch the rest of the videos.

    I've said this about 10 times on CathInfo.com and I'm really getting
    tired of repeating it.  
    Even Robert Sungenis agrees with Kepler and Newton's view of our
    solar system.  It's the universe outside of our solar system where
    he goes nuts and starts talking about "ether", the magical stuff that
    we cannot measure.  
    Believe what you want,  Nothing and nobody will change you.  Stay
    in the dark ages and claim that the papal decree of 1822 is heresy.


    Offline klasG4e

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  • The problem is that he [Cool Hard Logic] is reacting to Catholic Geocentrists the way most of the modern world
    is reacting to them ... running from them.  
    What that means is that most of the world is running from ... CathInfo.com
    Is that what you want ?  
    You had better be sure that Geocentrism is an INFALLIBLE dogma of the Church
    before your judgment day,  else God may ask you why you turned so many people
    away from the Catholic religion, by cramming Geocentrism down their throats ...
    when the pope decreed in 1822 that Heliocentrism is not wrong and Catholics may
    believe either way.  
    Robert Sungenis is an idiot (just an opinion, proof coming later).

    Sorry, Apollo.  I already have a solid Catholic confessor and spiritual director.  You need not apply. 

    So nice to see that you are apparently worried about poor little old me Apollo, thinking that God may ask me why I -- personally, little old me -- "turned so many people away from the Catholic religion, by cramming Geocentrism down their throats."  (Mea culpa, mea culpa to anyone on CathInfo for my "cramming Geocentrism down their throats."   I hope it wasn't too traumatizing.  Perhaps, I can make it up to you some way.  Just send me a personal message via this web site so I can begin the process. :)
     
    You may want to review your history Apollo if you think souls have been lost to hell because of Robert Sungenis' work concerning geocentrism.  The fact of the matter is that the world has done and continues to do a very effective job driving actual Catholics and potential Catholics away from the Church and the Catholic Faith by convincing them that the Church was wrong in its condemnation of geocentrism and that Galileo was right.  The world's constant refrain for well over 200 years has been that if the Church was wrong on Galileo/geocentrism what else has it been wrong on and what is it still wrong on today.

    The Catholic Church has always relied on God and the Catholic faith He has bestowed on His Church to save souls, not on science.  The world which is not of Christ and which hates Christ knows this and has thus used the "Galileo was right, the Church was wrong" mantra/refrain as a way to denigrate Holy Mother Church and the Catholic Faith (and by extension the doctrine of the total inerrancy of Sacred Scripture) as a very effective means to weaken the Church and place it on the defensive.  Review your history.  The proof is in the mix.  The world which is not of Christ has been tremendously successful in doing this.

    You say, "Robert Sungenis is an idiot."  Such nice words from one who does not hesitate in complaining about being on the receiving end of ad hominem abuse.

    Offline klasG4e

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  • This is what proves Geocentrism false.
    Wow!  Apollo says, "This is what proves Geocentrism false."  Wow!  Spread the word!  Spread the word!

    Offline klasG4e

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  • I've said this about 10 times on CathInfo.com and I'm really getting
    tired of repeating it.  
    Even Robert Sungenis agrees with Kepler and Newton's view of our
    solar system.  It's the universe outside of our solar system where
    he goes nuts and starts talking about "ether", the magical stuff that
    we cannot measure.  
    Believe what you want,  Nothing and nobody will change you.  Stay
    in the dark ages and claim that the papal decree of 1822 is heresy.

    If you really knew and understood what Sungenis teaches you would not engage in such rhetoric unless you simply wished to engage in dishonesty or unless you were under some sort of forced duress to do so.


    Offline roscoe

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  • James Bradly & Newton prove that E is in lateral motion-- they do Not prove Heliocentrism.   :cheers:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline Stanley N

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  • Here then is the usual way the Earthmovers dismiss any objection to their mind-science, they make no allowances that anyone who is not being paid to kerep therir ideological cosmology alive can study the subject and make their own mind up about them.
    Someone with a valid falsification of relativity would likely be inducted in his or her national academy of science and be a prime candidate for a Nobel prize. if such a falsification existed, it would be well known. 

    Even possible falsifications are quite widely reported, and the data is reviewed by other scientists. (Experts sometimes make mistakes in their analysis, too.)

    What a silly question. Determining where a satellite is orbiting the earth has nothing to do with a particular universal model. But while I am on it I will show you who uses the Geocentric model to determine other cosmic bodies.

    Geosynchronous orbits around earth would probably be calculated with a geocentric coordinate system, so this should be a softball to you. But the cooordinate system is not the issue. Any coordinate system could be used. 

    No, my question is to 1) find out whether you think the earth is rotating or not, and 2) determine whether your geocentric system has any predictive ability.

    The standard model can determine geosynchronous orbit for earth, mars, the moon, or any other body using the same method. As far as I can tell, a geocentric "universal model" means that some other mechanism makes an orbit geosynchronous for earth - and at exactly the same location that would be calculated if earth behaved just like any other planet, even though geocentrists think it doesn't behave like any other planet. 

    Offline roscoe

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  • I Would like to remind the Forum that the Pruthenic Tables of Copernicus( who hypothesized that E rev around S) are incorporated into the Gregorian Calendar.  :fryingpan:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Offline Stanley N

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  • You also state: "While I'm here: Sungenis' video near the end focuses on asking why the rotation of the earth is not slowing. As a matter of fact, science currently says that it is slowing - and we have leap seconds now and then in part to account for this."  Big deal!  You say as a matter of fact.  So what!  Science says this.  Science says that.  Look at the history of science.  What it "proves" today it "disproves" tomorrow and what it "disproves" tomorrow it "proves" the next day.  Science is true when it's true and false when it's false.
    One of his "rebuttal" arguments is wrong according to what should be common knowledge. It's not a "big deal" but it's worth noting.

    Then you go off about science changing? What is that about? An ability to adapt to new data would seem like a generally good thing for a science (as well as for a person). Do you think the science of theology is immune from change or development?

    Offline cassini

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  • Sorry, it's not an infallible dogma of the Catholic Church.  Or else the pope in 1822 is a heretic.
    Are you a sedevacantist ?  Are you saying all the popes starting in 1822 are not popes ?

    I have now come to the conclusion that the 'scientific' arguments on this thread have reached their limit and need to end.

    I will summarise the part science can play in regard to to H or G.

    Misconceptions about the nature and practice of science abound, and are often held by otherwise respectable practicing scientists themselves. Unfortunately, there are many other misconceptions about science. One of the most common of these concerns the so-called “scientific proofs.” Contrary to popular belief however, there is no such thing as a scientific proof. Proofs exist only in mathematics and logic, not in science. Mathematics and logic are both closed, self-contained systems of propositions, whereas science is empirical and deals with nature as it exists. The primary criterion and standard of evaluation of scientific theory is evidence, not proof. All else equal, scientists prefer theories for which there is more and better evidence to those for which there is less. Proofs are not the currency of science.’---Satoshi Kanazawa: The Scientific Fundamentalist, published on Nov. 16, 2008.

    What motivated me, and Klas and Laus and others is to try to rescue the Church's reputation of having gotten it so wrong in Faith and science as regards the Galileo case. For centuries the Catholic Church has been ridiculed over its decision to defend a geocentric reading of Scripture, something the Church is supposed to have divine guidance in doing correctly. Alas, having done what they did in 1820-35, it is now near impossible for the truth to prevail. This can be illustrated by the above accusation, 'Sorry, it's not an infallible dogma of the Catholic Church.  Or else the pope in 1822 is a heretic. Are you a sedevacantist ?  Are you saying all the popes starting in 1822 are not popes?'

    Now there is nothing new as regards this question, for it is the rock upon which the heliocentric heresy musd be defended by Catholics of the same Church that defined heliocentrism formal heresy in 1616 and 1633. To prevent the 1820-- popes from heresy, the heresy itself must be denied. How they did that post 1820 is recorded in thousands of books, encyclopedias, articles and websites by the thousands. First deny the 1616 decree had any real canonical authority, conjure up the idea that it was temporary using Bellarmine or Augustine if necessary, that it was a disciplinary decree, but most of all for the Stanleys and Apollos of this world, defend the once heretical heliocentrism as proven, just as the popes of 1741, 1820 and 1835 were told. as we see above Apollo tries to save the popes from 1820 from accusations of heresy. And who really can blame them, for it is a practice that has endured for hundreds of years.

    The truth however, is most complex but as the Scriptures says, 'the truth will out.' What is necessary to do is separate the Spotless Bride of Christ from the faults of it popes, theologians and flock.

    Now it is recorded thousands and thousands of times what happened in 1600, 1616, 1644, 1741, 1820 and 1835. Using the Holy Office set up to chase heresy from the Church, its reigning pope of the time used it to define a fixed-sun belief formal heresy. Galileo was condemned as a suspected herertic in 1633 for making public this belief in his book Dialogue. This decree of 1616 was papal, defining a matter of faith as it is revealed in the Scriptures. For 200 years every pope adhered to this decree that had been confirmed as absolute in 1633.

    In 1820 however, Pope Pius VII was told the heliocentrism of modern astronomers was proven true by science, and that the heliocentrism defined as formal heresy was a violent one. It is recorded that Fr Olivieri agreed with Fr Anfossi of the Holy Office that the 1616 decree was papal and irreformable and should remain so forever. So, the popes then allowed books written by modern astronomers on heliocentrism to be read by the Flock without any fear that they contained heresy. We see then that no pope was what we call a formal heretic, a material heretic probably, but under canon law this is not deliberate so there is no blame or punishment attached to it.

    So now we separate the two. The veracity of divine protection of a papal decree defining faith or morals, the 1616 decree, was never questioned or changed by any pope in history. Not even when popes and churchmen believed heliocentrism was a fact of nature did they even dare try to deny the authority of the 1616 decree. That is MIRACULOUS given the circuмstances. Certainly popes etc., lost faith in the dogma of geocentrism (formal heresy defines the subject matter dogma) and granted imprimaturs to helio books, but none defied the 1616 decree. They only allowed books that gave a non-heretical heliocentrism as they were led to believe. Allowing books to be read was not a rejection of the Church's 1616 decree and was never meant to be. This account of the 1820-1835 U-turn is new as the docuмents recording the circuмstances have only come out in very recent years. Here on Catholic info, a forum that allows discussion out of faith in Catholicism, a forum that had faith in the traditional divine protection for such decrees, the truth is now OUT and no pope can be accused of teaching the 1616 heresy.

    'Sorry, it's not an infallible dogma of the Catholic Church.  Or else the pope in 1822 is a heretic. Are you a sedevacantist ?  Are you saying all the popes starting in 1822 are not popes?'

    However, then, as today, as we see above, there are those who deny the Church of 1616 its infallible truth and continue to defend the heresy, that the sun is fixed relative to an orbiting Earth. They will even defend the idea that there is physical proof for that heresy. As we see above, their version leads to popes being accused of heretics if one defends the Church of 1616 in its interpretation of Scripture. It also infers the Church of 1616, its popes, Bellarmine and all its theologians, made a mistake that divine protection is supposed not to allow. It is they who undermine Catholicism by preventing TRUTH for prevailing. Surely we all now see how Satan fooled churchmen into believing the 1616 decree was proven wrong, and now that the truth shows the Church was never wrong in 1616 and 1633, and did not reject or deny these decrees in 1820 ort 1835, his only hope is to rely on those who still believe heliocentrism is a fact.

    Offline klasG4e

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  • One of his "rebuttal" arguments is wrong according to what should be common knowledge. It's not a "big deal" but it's worth noting.

    Then you go off about science changing? What is that about? An ability to adapt to new data would seem like a generally good thing for a science (as well as for a person). Do you think the science of theology is immune from change or development?
    No use going on with you Stan since you consistently have a penchant for mischaracterizing what I say.

    Offline Stanley N

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  • No use going on with you Stan since you consistently have a penchant for mischaracterizing what I say.
    I asked you what you meant. Is it now a problem for you to answer questions about what you said
    Quite an amazing thing for you to say -- especially when you realize that (as far as I know) no Catholic cleric with any authority over Sungenis has ever directed a single iota of warning, threat, admonition, etc. to him concerning all that he has done in the area of public dissemination/teaching/promotiopn of information concerning geocentrism.  Absolutely nothing, nada, zilch! 
    I don't see how what I said was "amazing". We will be judged on everything we do or do not do. If someone were to spread errors about the Church in popular media, don't you think think there might be some accounting at death?