"Our Lady's Miracle of the Sun opens up a lot of issues, which may be considered a bit of a digression ... related to cosmology ... that I can bring up on a separate thread so as not to derail this one."
"Perhaps beginning with Origen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen), the different identifiers used for heavens in the Book of Genesis, caelum and firmamentum, sparked some commentary on the significance of the order of creation (caelum identified as the heaven of the first day (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empyrean), and firmamentum as the heaven of the second day).[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmament#cite_note-8) Some of these theories identified caelum as the higher, immaterial and spiritual heaven, whereas firmamentum was of corporeal existence.[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmament#cite_note-9): 237
Christian theologians of note writing between the 5th and mid-12th century were generally in agreement that the waters, sometimes called the "crystalline orb", were located above the firmament and beneath the fiery heaven that was also called empyrean (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empyrean) (from Greek ἔμπυρος). One medieval writer who rejected such notions was Pietro d'Abano (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pietro_d'Abano) who argued that theologians "assuming a crystalline, or aqueous sphere, and an empyrean, or firey sphere" were relying on revelation more than Scripture.[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmament#cite_note-10)
About this Ambrose (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrose) wrote: "Wise men of the world say that water cannot be over the heavens"; the firmament is called such, according to Ambrose, because it held back the waters above it.[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmament#cite_note-11)
This matter of the position of the "waters" above the firmament was considered by Augustine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine) in De Genesi ad litteram (perhaps his least studied work): "only God knows how and why [the waters] are there, but we cannot deny the authority of Holy Scripture which is greater than our understanding"."
God createth Heaven and Earth, and all things therein, in six days.
1 In the beginning God created heaven, and earth. 2 And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters. 3 And God said: Be light made. And light was made. 4 And God saw the light that it was good; and he divided the light from the darkness. 5 And he called the light Day, and the darkness Night; and there was evening and morning one day.
6 And God said: Let there be a firmament made amidst the waters: and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made a firmament, and divided the waters that were under the firmament, from those that were above the firmament, and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament, Heaven; and the evening and morning were the second day. 9 God also said: Let the waters that are under the heaven, be gathered together into one place: and let the dry land appear. And it was so done. 10 And God called the dry land, Earth; and the gathering together of the waters, he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
Genesis also talks about the "windows of heaven" that were opened at the time of the Flood, as if the firmament had openings to let the WATERS down to the earth below.
If you're a Glober, you have to take all this as poetic language and old-fashioned, archaic, FAIRY TALE LIKE figurative imagery. But that is not necessary.
Would someone please ping Fr. Paul Robinson and ask him to post on this topic? :popcorn:
18 For they overflowed exceedingly: and filled all on the face of the earth: and the ark was carried upon the waters. 19 And the waters prevailed beyond measure upon the earth: and all the high mountains under the whole heaven were covered. 20 The water was fifteen cubits higher than the mountains which it covered.
21 And all flesh was destroyed that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beasts, and of all creeping things that creep upon the earth: and all men. 22 And all things wherein there is the breath of life on the earth, died. 23 And he destroyed all the substance that was upon the earth, from man even to beast, and the creeping things and fowls of the air: and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noe only remained, and they that were with him in the ark. 24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth a hundred and fifty days.
...and that's why Flat Earth matters.
The Globe Earth is the FOUNDATIONAL lie, upon which Secularism, Materialism, Communism, Evolution, Liberalism, Americanism/Democracy, and all the other modern errors rest!
If the earth is flat under a firmament/dome, then there is CLEARLY a Creator who is God. Mankind is special among the beasts, being the only physical being with intellect and Free Will. Also, this Man must follow God and His law, and give some concern for his eternal destiny. True AI won't ever be possible as Man can't create immortal immaterial souls, there are no aliens or other "planets" to visit, and we must worship God rather than Man. Think of all the things we wouldn't waste our time and money on, if humanity at large realized that God created them!
As far as the Joshua story and the sun stopping, based on some of the research I've done and someone else who did or researched the math....We know a circle is 360 degrees and before this event each year was 360 days and a degree was measured for each day. Long story short...after this event is why we have 365 days per year now.
Interesting. I haven't heard that, though this would seem to require a change in the long-term speed of the sun to alter 360 to 365 long term. If the sun resumed after the stoppage at the same speed it was going before, there would be a single hit to the time of year. Or when it resume it would have just been that time stopped and nothing really changed.Some of the stuff he was saying went over my head and it was a very long and drawn out explanation complete with maths but what I do remember what he did say made sense. I really wish I could remember or retrieve the long disertation on the matter because it was very interesting and even gave me goosebumps.
Some of the stuff he was saying went over my head and it was a very long and drawn out explanation complete with maths but what I do remember what he did say made sense. I really wish I could remember or retrieve the long disertation on the matter because it was very interesting and even gave me goosebumps.
Yeah, Father Paul Robinson, contrary to the words of Sacred Scripture that describe the Flood as inundating ALL the earth, to the point that the highest mountains were covered by water, holds to the "Local" or "Regional" Flood theory, with his rationale being that there could never be enough rain to cover the entire earth. This begs the question that there isn't a firmament holding waters away from the earth, and it ignores that fact that the fountains of the deep also burst forth. Father Robinson also ignores Sacred Scripture's description of the "Deep", which were the waters beneath the earth. Not to mention that Local Flood is absurd on the face of it. In the many decades that it took Noah to build the ark, he could have just packed up and moved out of the region. Why was there a need to take all the animals aboard? God too could have just caused any animals that would be in danger of extinction (i.e. those that were to be found ONLY in the region where the Flood occurred) to migrate, as there's at tradition that God had the animals come to Noah's ark. How is it that the ark remained afloat for 40 days before Noah even opened the window and the flood waters remained for 150 days? If a Local Flood, it would have dissipated in hours just due to the water leveling.Not defending Paul robinson
Basically Father Robinson's Local Flood theory reduces the Flood to a fairy tale. That's contrary to anything believed by any Church Father. It's heretical. Father Paul Robinson is a Modernist heretic. I do not make this accusation lightly, but the Holy Office and St. Robert Bellarmine would have condemned him as a heretic ... and rightly so. He's as bad as any of the Modernist Jesuits that I tussled with for years (8 years of Jesuit education between Jesuit High School and Jesuit University).
Genesis 6: 18-24
So how do I read this as Local Flood without undermining all of Sacred Scripture? You can't, unless I don't understand what the meaning of "all" is and what the meaning of "is" is. I guess that the Hebrew language was very confusing, where many means all (the consecration), and evidently all means many (Genesis Flood). Hey, I have an idea ... just flip the words in the Hebrew Lexicon. And once you turn the Flood and the Creation account into fairy tales, what else in Sacred Scripture is a fairy tale, a metaphor, an allegory, etc.? It undermines the authority of all Sacred Scripture. That is why I saw dozens of young men at Jesuit High School lose the faith, primarily due to the undermining of Sacred Scripture by the Modernist Jesuits.
Not defending Paul robinson
but if he is a heretic for this, how do you reconcile with humani generis saying evolution of the human body could be debated
Like I’m sure you believe pius xii was wrong to allow that. But since he was in your view a true pope and you aren’t r and r, you’d have to say someone could follow what he said and not be a heretic right?
Not defending Paul robinson
but if he is a heretic for this, how do you reconcile with humani generis saying evolution of the human body could be debated
Like I’m sure you believe pius xii was wrong to allow that. But since he was in your view a true pope and you aren’t r and r, you’d have to say someone could follow what he said and not be a heretic right?
As far as the Joshua story and the sun stopping, based on some of the research I've done and someone else who did or researched the math....We know a circle is 360 degrees and before this event each year was 360 days and a degree was measured for each day. Long story short...after this event is why we have 365 days per year now.I'm leaning more towards flat earth myself. You mentioned the word circle, the word in Isiahs 40:22, is gyrum which means circle or ring. The word for globe is globus which has a completely different meaning. Something can be circular and also flat. The translation is not precise.