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Author Topic: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?  (Read 10707 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
« Reply #45 on: February 01, 2018, 04:18:30 AM »
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  • Church explicitly teaches earth does not move.
    De fide.
    The Congregation of the Holy Office does not have the authority to make de fide teachings.  If it had been de fide, a later pope would not have been able to remove the condemnation.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #46 on: February 01, 2018, 05:36:48 AM »
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  • The Congregation of the Holy Office does not have the authority to make de fide teachings.  If it had been de fide, a later pope would not have been able to remove the condemnation.
    I want to back this up with a quote from Ludwig Ott's Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (p.10) : 


    Quote
    With regard to the doctrinal teaching of the Church it must be well noted that not all the assertions of the Teaching Authority of the Church on questions of Faith and morals are infallible and consequently irrevocable. Only those are infallible which emanate from General Councils representing the whole episcopate, and the Papal Decisions Ex Cathedra (cf. D 1839). The ordinary and usual form of the Papal teaching activity is not infallible. Further, the decisions of the Roman Congregations (Holy Office, Bible Commission) are not infallible. Nevertheless normally they are to be accepted with an inner assent which is based on the high supernatural authority of the Holy See (assensus internus supernaturalis, assensus religiosus). The so-called "silentium obsequiosum." that is "reverent silence," does not generally suffice. By way of exception, the obligation of inner agreement may cease if a competent expert, after a renewed scientific investigation of all grounds, arrives at the positive conviction that the decision rests on an error. 
    http://www.catholictreasury.info/quote4.htm




    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #47 on: February 01, 2018, 07:32:00 AM »
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  • The Congregation of the Holy Office does not have the authority to make de fide teachings.  If it had been de fide, a later pope would not have been able to remove the condemnation.
    No, the Bible dummy.
    It TEACHES - de fide - that earth does not move.
    Heliocentrism is a heresy. 

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #48 on: February 01, 2018, 08:36:34 AM »
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  • Cardinal Bellarmine assures us that the consent of the Fathers and their commentators is unanimous in holding a geocentric and geostatic view of the universe based on Holy Scripture (#6). Just how far the contemporary Church has departed from Catholic tradition is emphasized by this as well as by the other points of Cardinal Bellarmine's Letter, for he refuses to recognize the distinction, rejected also in our times by Benedict XV and Leo XIII, between references to physical things and supernatural facts (#7) as dividing truth from possible error in Holy Scripture. Fr. Jerome Langford is of the modernist mentality and reads the Decree of Trentaccording to Galileo: "... the Fathers had to affirm, explicitly or implicitly, that the text under consideration pertained to a matter of faith or morals."(20) But as we have already shown, this is not what Trent said nor could have so said because both Benedict XV and Leo XIII have emphatically reaffirmed the integrity of Holy Scripture in all its parts and all its meanings, both physical and spiritual, both natural and supernatural.
     Galileo and the heliocentrists or Copernicans attacked a truth of faith, namely, that Holy Scripture is inspired and inerrant in all its parts and that we may not depart from the common agreement of the Fathers in our interpretations.
     Besides these distinctions, there is the authority of the Church as the one guardian and only true interpreter of Holy Scripture. Vatican I,Canons and Decrees, Chapter III: Of Faith, says:
     ... all those things are to be believed with divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the Word of God,, written or handed down, and which the Church, either by a solemn judgment or by her ordinary teaching (magisterium),proposes for belief as having been divinely revealed. ... ... although faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason; since the same God Who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, and God cannot deny Himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth. The false appearance of such a contradiction is mainly due, either to the dogmas of faith not having been understood and expounded according to the mind of the Church, or to the inventions of opinion having been taken for the verdicts of reason. We define, therefore, that every assertion contrary to a truth of enlightened faith is utterly false. Further, the Church, which together with the apostolic office of teaching, has received a charge to guard the deposit of faith, derives from God the right and the duty of proscribing false science, lest any should be deceived by philosophy and vain deceit (can.ii) Therefore all faithful Christians are not only forbidden to defend as legitimate conclusions of science such opinions as are known to be contrary to the doctrines of faith, especially if they have been condemned by the Church, but are altogether bound to account them as errors which put on the fallacious appearance of truth. (D1797-8)


    So much for your ridiculous notion that some heliocentrism is perfectly fine.  The Church condemns that too.

    Most of this post appears to be a long unattributed quotation from Paula Haigh.  She was a Catholic laywoman who studied literary theory but did not complete her doctoral dissertation.  Her opinions have no more authority than mine or any other layperson. 

    Offline Meg

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #49 on: February 01, 2018, 09:00:05 AM »
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  • Happenby posted something incredibly damning to your argument above.
    "In 1664 the Church went to further lengths to extirpate his error: The Index for that year was prefixed by a Bull. Entitled Speculatores Domus Israel, it was signed by Pope Alexander VII, who declared, 'We, having taken the advice of our Cardinals, confirm and approve with Apostolic authority by the tenor of these presents, and command and enjoin all persons everywhere to yield to this Index a constant and complete obedience.'

    This conversation is over. Heliocentrism stands forever condemned.

    I suppose the globers think that condemnations may only be temporary, like an excommunication. Or like the conciliar church, and how it no longer condemns anything - except reason. 

    In fact, the debate is similar to the debate over tradition vs. modernism. The modernists come up with all kinds of reasons as to why the church no longer condemns, say, false ecuмenism. They believe that we have to update the Church, and keep up with the times. Whatever the Church used to teach is old hat. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #50 on: February 01, 2018, 09:13:47 AM »
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  • I suppose the globers think that condemnations may only be temporary, like an excommunication. Or like the conciliar church, and how it no longer condemns anything - except reason.
    I am not making a theoretical statement about the nature of condemnations. It is a matter of historical record that the condemnation of heliocentrism was lifted.  Do you deny this?  

    Offline Meg

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #51 on: February 01, 2018, 09:15:35 AM »
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  • I am not making a theoretical statement about the nature of condemnations. It is a matter of historical record that the condemnation of heliocentrism was lifted.  Do you deny this?  

    The modernists use Vll to justify the Church changing her stance on quite a few things. Do you deny this?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #52 on: February 01, 2018, 09:27:02 AM »
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  • The modernists use Vll to justify the Church changing her stance on quite a few things. Do you deny this?
    Of course I don't deny it but it has nothing to do with the topic. The condemnation of heliocentrism was lifted 70 years before the rise of modernism and 140 years before Vatican II. 

    Do you deny that the condemnation was lifted?  


    Offline Meg

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #53 on: February 01, 2018, 09:29:56 AM »
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  • Of course I don't deny it but it has nothing to do with the topic. The condemnation of heliocentrism was lifted 70 years before the rise of modernism and 140 years before Vatican II.

    Do you deny that the condemnation was lifted?  


    You have the same mindset of modernists who believe that truth evolves and changes. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #54 on: February 01, 2018, 09:40:29 AM »
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  • You have the same mindset of modernists who believe that truth evolves and changes.
    You really don't want to answer the question, do you?  Was the condemnation of heliocentrism lifted?

    I have seen the text of the docuмent itself and references to this event in multiple reputable sources.  Therefore I see no reason to question that it happened.  Stop making things up about what I think and tell me what you think.  

    Offline Meg

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #55 on: February 01, 2018, 09:44:57 AM »
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  • You really don't want to answer the question, do you?  Was the condemnation of heliocentrism lifted?

    I have seen the text of the docuмent itself and references to this event in multiple reputable sources.  Therefore I see no reason to question that it happened.  Stop making things up about what I think and tell me what you think.  

    The subject isn't about the condemnation being lifted. My post, that you responded to, addressed the fact that the modernists believe that truth changes, and globalists also believe this. You are trying to change the subject, as you always do.

    You have a modernist mindset, in that you believe that truth can change and evolve. I don't see any indication otherwise.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline happenby

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #56 on: February 01, 2018, 09:50:26 AM »
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  • You do not seem to understand what the papal Bull is stating.  Pope Alexander republished the Index of condemned books and is telling people to obey it.  The Bull is not specifically about heliocentrism but about the authority of the Index. Because the Index is disciplinary rather than doctrinal, it can and did change. Later, the Index, with the exact same level of authority, removed books promoting heliocentrism, indicating the Church now allowed this model.  There is nothing about a pope enjoining obedience to the Index that implies heliocentrism stands forever condemned.  On the contrary, the Index confirms that the condemnation was removed.
    Why doesn't he understand?  The Bull IS about heliocentrism also.  It says a Catholic cannot accept Copernican works.  Forever.  Read the Bull.  The Index was later abandoned, but even Benedict XVI said the Index still holds its force.  Lots of things were on the Index including porn books.  Do you think that we can read porn now? 

    Offline happenby

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #57 on: February 01, 2018, 09:53:50 AM »
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  • Of course I don't deny it but it has nothing to do with the topic. The condemnation of heliocentrism was lifted 70 years before the rise of modernism and 140 years before Vatican II.

    Do you deny that the condemnation was lifted?  
    No one can "lift" a condemnation.  Its like Francis trying to make it acceptable for the divorced and remarried to receive communion.  Modernism was in full swing before Pius X born in 1835 which is why he condemned it.  It was already a problem back then.  Modernism did not only just arrive with VII.  If you read the Bull, you'll see it holds forever, bound upon the consciences of men.

    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #58 on: February 01, 2018, 10:03:10 AM »
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  • Of course I don't deny it but it has nothing to do with the topic. The condemnation of heliocentrism was lifted 70 years before the rise of modernism and 140 years before Vatican II.

    Do you deny that the condemnation was lifted?  
    Do you DENY that the Bible is de fide, part of the Deposit of Faith? 

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #59 on: February 01, 2018, 10:28:14 AM »
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  • Why doesn't he understand?  The Bull IS about heliocentrism also.  It says a Catholic cannot accept Copernican works.  Forever.  Read the Bull.  The Index was later abandoned, but even Benedict XVI said the Index still holds its force.  Lots of things were on the Index including porn books.  Do you think that we can read porn now?
    Have you read the Bull?  It cannot possibly say what you claim. Each of the 20 published editions of the Index was different.  Books were added and books were removed.  

    Quote
    The first Roman Index was printed in 1557 under the direction of Pope Paul IV (1555–1559), but then withdrawn for unclear reasons.[31] In 1559, a new index was finally published, banning the entire works of some 550 authors in addition to the individual proscribed titles:[31][32] "The Pauline Index felt that the religious convictions of an author contaminated all his writing."[30] The work of the censors was considered too severe and met with much opposition even in Catholic intellectual circles; after the Council of Trenthad authorised a revised list prepared under Pope Pius IV, the so-called Tridentine Index was promulgated in 1564; it remained the basis of all later lists until Pope Leo XIII, in 1897, published his Index Leonianus.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_Librorum_Prohibitorum#Abolition_(1966)


    Specifically in relation to Pope Alexander:

    Quote
    After Alexander VII's pontificate, the Index underwent a number of revisions.[36] "In 1758 the general prohibition against works advocating heliocentrism was removed from the Index of prohibited books, although the specific ban on uncensored versions of the Dialogue and Copernicus's De Revolutionibus remained. All traces of official opposition to heliocentrism by the church disappeared in 1835 when these works were finally dropped from the Index".[37]
     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Alexander_VII

    The Index does not show that heliocentrism was condemned forever.  It shows that the last traces of opposition to heliocentrism completely disappeared in 1835.  (This was the first edition of the Index to appear after Pius VII lifted the condemnation.)