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Author Topic: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?  (Read 10717 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2018, 03:13:29 PM »
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  • The Church condemned heliocentrism, to which the globe belongs.  Being condemned as a model, all aspects of that model, unless singled out, also remain condemned.  You cannot pick and choose.  You cannot prove otherwise.
    We know that the spherical earth was not a condemned element of heliocentrism because Tycho Brahe's model which also posited a spherical earth was allowed.  

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tychonic_system
    Quote
    the Tychonic system was very influential in the late 16th and 17th centuries. In 1616, during the Galileo affair, the papal Congregation of the Index banned all books advocating the Copernican system, including works by Copernicus, Galileo, Kepler and other authors until 1758.[27][28] The Tychonic system was an acceptable alternative as it explained the observed phases of Venus with a static Earth. Jesuit astronomers in China used it extensively, as did a number of European scholars. Jesuits (such as ClaviusChristoph GrienbergerChristoph ScheinerOdo van Maelcote) were the most efficient agent for the diffusion of the Tychonic system. It was chiefly through the influence of the Jesuit scientists that the Roman Catholic Church adopted the Tychonic system, over a period of nine years (from 1611 to 1620), in a process directly prompted by the Galilean telescopic discoveries.[29]
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    The ardent anti-heliocentric French astronomer Jean-Baptiste Morin devised a Tychonic planetary model with elliptical orbits published in 1650 in a simplified, Tychonic version of the Rudolphine Tables.[94] Some acceptance of the Tychonic system persisted through the 17th century and in places until the early 18th century; it was supported (after a 1633 decree about the Copernican controversy) by "a flood of pro-Tycho literature" of Jesuit origin. Among pro-Tycho Jesuits, Ignace Pardies declared in 1691 that it was still the commonly accepted system, and Francesco Blanchinus reiterated that as late as 1728.[95] Persistence of the Tychonic system, especially in Catholic countries, has been attributed to its satisfaction of a need (relative to Catholic doctrine) for "a safe synthesis of ancient and modern".
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tycho_Brahe

    Offline Meg

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #16 on: January 31, 2018, 03:36:34 PM »
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  • We know that the spherical earth was not a condemned element of heliocentrism because Tycho Brahe's model which also posited a spherical earth was allowed.  

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tychonic_systemhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tycho_Brahe

    John Baptiste Morin (mentioned in the post above) was mainly known as an astrologer. That was his main work. He spent 30 years writing his astrological work. Evidently, he didn't like the astrology of Ptolemy.

    http://www.astroamerica.com/morin.html
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #17 on: January 31, 2018, 04:04:39 PM »
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  • When providing proof, heliocentric or other pagan references are useless because that begs the question.  Also, since the Church condemned heliocentrism of which the globe is a part, you'd have to prove the Church didn't include the globe in Her condemnation.
    People giving historical accounts of the beliefs of Christendom are not a priori going to make mistakes because they are not geocentrists.  It is not fair to assume without evidence that they are biased.  There are countless reference works, from a wide variety of perspectives, all saying similar things about the dominance of the Ptolemaic model.

    Even on this forum there are members who believe in geocentrism without believing the earth is flat.  It is absurd to claim as you do that the only possible models are flat, geocentric or globe, heliocentric.

    The condemnation of heliocentrism was very specific in what it condemned.  It described the problematic ideas.  If you would like to look it up in a source you trust, you can see that it says nothing about a problem with spherical earth.

    Offline happenby

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #18 on: January 31, 2018, 04:28:32 PM »
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  • We know that the spherical earth was not a condemned element of heliocentrism because Tycho Brahe's model which also posited a spherical earth was allowed.  

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tychonic_systemhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tycho_Brahe
    Your post doesn't prove anything.  This isn't a popularity contest of what the world imbibed! Who cares who accepted what model?  We're talking about the position the Church took on the matter.  The Church condemned heliocentrism.  That's a fact.  You need to prove that the Church didn't include the spherical earth in Her condemnation--a very dominant feature of the heliocentric model.  This in light of knowing Church Fathers taught a flat geocentric earth, there is little excuse to defend a very prominent feature of a condemned model.  The Fathers never taught earth is a globe.  You also need to reconcile the globe with Scripture.  Flat earth is fully reconcilable with Scripture down to the last jot and tittle.  The globe however, cannot be reconciled with any of the above.  Not to mention science and math.       

    Offline happenby

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #19 on: January 31, 2018, 04:53:00 PM »
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  • People giving historical accounts of the beliefs of Christendom are not a priori going to make mistakes because they are not geocentrists.  It is not fair to assume without evidence that they are biased.  There are countless reference works, from a wide variety of perspectives, all saying similar things about the dominance of the Ptolemaic model.

    Even on this forum there are members who believe in geocentrism without believing the earth is flat.  It is absurd to claim as you do that the only possible models are flat, geocentric or globe, heliocentric.

    The condemnation of heliocentrism was very specific in what it condemned.  It described the problematic ideas.  If you would like to look it up in a source you trust, you can see that it says nothing about a problem with spherical earth.
    No one is accusing Catholics of being biased. They just drank the kook-aid.  They were indoctrinated.  Plenty of Catholics believe all kinds of things, but that doesn't mean we can't guide them to a better understanding about this lie that was sold to them regarding earth.  Do you believe the earth spins, barrels through space in 3 different directions as NASA claims?  People need to know they are being lied to!  It matters to me.  Now, if you believe the moving ball earth, you are at odds with the Church.  If you don't believe earth moves, what are YOU doing to free people of believing NASA's fakery and lies regarding movement?  NASA is faking space walks and rocket launches into "space" to the tune of billions of dollars just to turn out cartoons and CGI pictures they create on a computer. Why?  To prove that earth is a moving, spinning globe.  Yes, NASA has spent billions to prove the heliocentric model BUT, never produced a single verifiable proof of it.  This is a nightmare on the most shocking level, to include the entire population of earth. One way to help Catholics understand some of this lie is that the Church condemned heliocentrism.  People need to know that no matter how strange it may sound, there is a pervasive lie carried on by the occult throughout the ages and the lie affects them.  Even if you don't believe earth is flat, you ought to be helping us get the message out that NASA is indoctrinating people and making them foot the bill.  Instead, FE'ers get plowed under as though we are the enemy.  That is weird. Its also highly suggestive of something nefarious within those who battle us so vehemently.  We have a case for what we believe.  NASA doesn't.  Go bark at them.      


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #20 on: January 31, 2018, 05:02:35 PM »
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  • Your post doesn't prove anything.  This isn't a popularity contest of what the world imbibed! Who cares who accepted what model?  We're talking about the position the Church took on the matter.  The Church condemned heliocentrism.  That's a fact.  You need to prove that the Church didn't include the spherical earth in Her condemnation--a very dominant feature of the heliocentric model.  This in light of knowing Church Fathers taught a flat geocentric earth, there is little excuse to defend a very prominent feature of a condemned model.  The Fathers never taught earth is a globe.  You also need to reconcile the globe with Scripture.  Flat earth is fully reconcilable with Scripture down to the last jot and tittle.  The globe however, cannot be reconciled with any of the above.  Not to mention science and math.      

    Look at the wording of the condemnation.  It does not even use the word heliocentrism.  It condemns two specific propositions:

    Quote
    This Holy Tribunal being therefore of intention to proceed against the disorder and mischief thence resulting, which went on increasing to the prejudice of the Holy Faith, by command of His Holiness and of the Most Eminent Lords Cardinals of this supreme and universal Inquisition, the two propositions of the stability of the Sun and the motion of the Earth were by the theological Qualifiers qualified as follows:
    The proposition that the Sun is the center of the world and does not move from its place is absurd and false philosophically and formally heretical, because it is expressly contrary to Holy Scripture.
    The proposition that the Earth is not the center of the world and immovable but that it moves, and also with a diurnal motion, is equally absurd and false philosophically and theologically considered at least erroneous in faith.

    You can read the whole thing and you will see that nothing other than those two propositions are condemned.  There is nothing in there about spherical earth and that means it is not condemned.  The Tychonian model (which included a sperical earth) was clearly acceptable to the Church. 

    At the time this was issued, almost no educated Catholic had believed in a flat earth for over a thousand years.  What some (not all) of the Church Fathers believed is irrelevant.  Doctors of the Church like St. Bede, St. Albert, and St. Thomas had no difficulty in reconciling a spherical earth with Scripture.  The exegetical principles involved have been explained to you many times. 

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #21 on: January 31, 2018, 05:09:21 PM »
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  •  People need to know they are being lied to!  It matters to me.  Now, if you believe the moving ball earth, you are at odds with the Church.  
    You are the one lying.  You are misrepresenting Church teaching.  The Church has no problem with people believing in "the moving ball earth".
    I don't care if you believe in a flat earth but I can't stand to see you spreading misinformation about the Church.  Please discuss this with your priest.  You are doing something horribly wrong.

    Offline Truth is Eternal

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #22 on: January 31, 2018, 05:19:36 PM »
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  • You are the one lying.  You are misrepresenting Church teaching.  The Church has no problem with people believing in "the moving ball earth".
    I don't care if you believe in a flat earth but I can't stand to see you spreading misinformation about the Church.  Please discuss this with your priest.  You are doing something horribly wrong.
    :laugh1: :laugh2: :jumping2:


    Offline happenby

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #23 on: January 31, 2018, 05:24:53 PM »
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  • Look at the wording of the condemnation.  It does not even use the word heliocentrism.  It condemns two specific propositions:

    You can read the whole thing and you will see that nothing other than those two propositions are condemned.  There is nothing in there about spherical earth and that means it is not condemned.  The Tychonian model (which included a sperical earth) was clearly acceptable to the Church.

    At the time this was issued, almost no educated Catholic had believed in a flat earth for over a thousand years.  What some (not all) of the Church Fathers believed is irrelevant.  Doctors of the Church like St. Bede, St. Albert, and St. Thomas had no difficulty in reconciling a spherical earth with Scripture.  The exegetical principles involved have been explained to you many times.
    St. Bede St. Albert and St. Thomas did not teach earth is a globe. They may have believed it, but they didn't teach it.  The Fathers that taught about the form of the earth clearly taught the earth is flat.     

    Offline happenby

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #24 on: January 31, 2018, 05:28:58 PM »
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  • You are the one lying.  You are misrepresenting Church teaching.  The Church has no problem with people believing in "the moving ball earth".
    I don't care if you believe in a flat earth but I can't stand to see you spreading misinformation about the Church.  Please discuss this with your priest.  You are doing something horribly wrong.
    Ok, so you believe NASA?  You believe earth is spinning and jetting through space in 4 different directions?  In doing so, you ignore the condemnation of the Church directly.  That makes it a slam dunk you know you're wrong. 
    And by the way, the Church did condemn the heliocentric moving earth, so She very much has a problem with people believing in what She condemned.  

    Offline happenby

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #25 on: January 31, 2018, 05:32:11 PM »
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  • Cardinal Bellarmine assures us that the consent of the Fathers and their commentators is unanimous in holding a geocentric and geostatic view of the universe based on Holy Scripture (#6). Just how far the contemporary Church has departed from Catholic tradition is emphasized by this as well as by the other points of Cardinal Bellarmine's Letter, for he refuses to recognize the distinction, rejected also in our times by Benedict XV and Leo XIII, between references to physical things and supernatural facts (#7) as dividing truth from possible error in Holy Scripture. Fr. Jerome Langford is of the modernist mentality and reads the Decree of Trentaccording to Galileo: "... the Fathers had to affirm, explicitly or implicitly, that the text under consideration pertained to a matter of faith or morals."(20) But as we have already shown, this is not what Trent said nor could have so said because both Benedict XV and Leo XIII have emphatically reaffirmed the integrity of Holy Scripture in all its parts and all its meanings, both physical and spiritual, both natural and supernatural.
     Galileo and the heliocentrists or Copernicans attacked a truth of faith, namely, that Holy Scripture is inspired and inerrant in all its parts and that we may not depart from the common agreement of the Fathers in our interpretations.
     Besides these distinctions, there is the authority of the Church as the one guardian and only true interpreter of Holy Scripture. Vatican I,Canons and Decrees, Chapter III: Of Faith, says:
     ... all those things are to be believed with divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the Word of God,, written or handed down, and which the Church, either by a solemn judgment or by her ordinary teaching (magisterium),proposes for belief as having been divinely revealed. ... ... although faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason; since the same God Who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, and God cannot deny Himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth. The false appearance of such a contradiction is mainly due, either to the dogmas of faith not having been understood and expounded according to the mind of the Church, or to the inventions of opinion having been taken for the verdicts of reason. We define, therefore, that every assertion contrary to a truth of enlightened faith is utterly false. Further, the Church, which together with the apostolic office of teaching, has received a charge to guard the deposit of faith, derives from God the right and the duty of proscribing false science, lest any should be deceived by philosophy and vain deceit (can.ii) Therefore all faithful Christians are not only forbidden to defend as legitimate conclusions of science such opinions as are known to be contrary to the doctrines of faith, especially if they have been condemned by the Church, but are altogether bound to account them as errors which put on the fallacious appearance of truth. (D1797-8)


    So much for your ridiculous notion that some heliocentrism is perfectly fine.  The Church condemns that too.


    Offline happenby

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #26 on: January 31, 2018, 05:38:34 PM »
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  • Living in the midst of triumphant modernism as we do today (in the1990's), it is easy to recognize in the Decree against Galileo what is perhaps the first specific condemnation of a primary modernist tenet: "that any opinion may be held and defended as probable [even] after it has been declared and defined as contrary to Holy Scripture."  --Fr. Langford on the Galileo Affair quoting a Church teaching

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #27 on: January 31, 2018, 05:40:39 PM »
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  • St. Bede St. Albert and St. Thomas did not teach earth is a globe. They may have believed it, but they didn't teach it.  The Fathers that taught about the form of the earth clearly taught the earth is flat.     
    St. Thomas only mentioned it in passing but both St. Bede and St. Albert explicitly taught that the earth is a sphere. Opinion of the Fathers was split.  Gregory of Nyssa, for example, taught that thearth is a sphere.

    Offline happenby

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #28 on: January 31, 2018, 05:43:17 PM »
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  • Insofar as our faith is based on the authority of God revealing, and insofar as Holy Scripture is the written word of God infallibly interpreted for us by the Church, a decline in Faith is brought about by a Scientism that claims an authority higher than that of Divine Revelation. As Scientism pushes out the intellectual content of divine faith in people's minds, Divine Revelation is stripped of any relation to vast areas of knowledge. It is from Holy Scripture that we learn the true story of our origins and early history, not from an evolutionary scientism. It is from Holy Scripture that we learn the true structure of the universe, not from pagan and atheistic cosmologists.  --Catholic writer and geocentrist Paula Haigh

    Offline happenby

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #29 on: January 31, 2018, 05:43:50 PM »
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  • St. Thomas only mentioned it in passing but both St. Bede and St. Albert explicitly taught that the earth is a sphere. Opinion of the Fathers was split.  Gregory of Nyssa, for example, taught that the earth is a sphere.
    Please provide your proofs of this.