Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?  (Read 4370 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline happenby

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2768
  • Reputation: +1077/-1637
  • Gender: Female
Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
« Reply #90 on: February 01, 2018, 02:07:56 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Every single argument here in support of flat earth being a Church teaching was a bad argument.  I did not ignore them.  I thought about them, but I could see that they were simply wrong, based on incorrect assumptions and misunderstandings.  You do not have support from Tradition.  None.  

    I need to pray a lot when dealing with these discussions, but mainly for patience.
    The support from Tradition includes the teaching and explanation of the Fathers.  Many Fathers taught that Scripture describes a flat earth.  Enoch explains what he saw when the angel took him to see the workings of the cosmos--a flat stationary earth.  Moses describes the Church and the tabernacle were types of the earth, with a dome, pillars, foundation, face, four corners and ends.  Cosmas explains in great detail the beauty of these teachings.  These are not dismissable simply because you say they are.  I've told you why your proofs aren't proofs because yours relies on popularity.  You only dismiss mine.  A person with sensus Cathlicus would not shoot such valuable insight down without investigating thoroughly, first. Right out of the gate you dismissed all of it and you haven't stopped. But your reasons were shot down.  For instance, you say Scripture doesn't describe the earth.  But it does.  Read for yourself.  Then, observe what the Fathers teach and what they don't teach on the subject.  Observe what the enemy teaches, another sign.  Then you said, we can't know.  But we can, if the Fathers have shown how.  Then you say that the Church didn't condemn heliocentrism.  But She did in 1633.  Then you said we aren't able to understand Scripture.  But we are encouraged to study Scripture and believe what it teaches, as long as it doesn't conflict with Church teaching, which flat earth does not do.  Then you said, it isn't infallible.  What the Church does teach, is infallible.  And the Church has spoken on related issues, not only condemning heliocentrism, but also teaching for over a 1000 years that Jerusalem is the center of the world and that anti-podes do not exist... not to mention the Fathers have provided incredible insight similar to parables on the subject that not only make sense, but provide a working model that agrees with Scripture.  Honestly, you were given many opportunities, many proofs that match up like a well oiled clock.  The globe matches up with pagan history and pagan scientists and is promoted by pagan liars like NASA who serve the globalist agenda.  If you don't believe, that's up to you.  I believe.  And I'm going to continue to show as many people as I can the glorious truth of God's creation because the Church, the Fathers, Scripture and reason all support it.  Why would I sink to borrow a condemned proposition and hold it as truth?  Never.
    No need to become impatient.  I will do the same.  Keep studying and ask questions.  No one minds that.   


    Offline Jaynek

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3874
    • Reputation: +1993/-1112
    • Gender: Female
    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #91 on: February 01, 2018, 02:52:45 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The support from Tradition includes the teaching and explanation of the Fathers.  Many Fathers taught that Scripture describes a flat earth.  Enoch explains what he saw when the angel took him to see the workings of the cosmos--a flat stationary earth.  Moses describes the Church and the tabernacle were types of the earth, with a dome, pillars, foundation, face, four corners and ends.  Cosmas explains in great detail the beauty of these teachings.  These are not dismissable simply because you say they are.  I've told you why your proofs aren't proofs because yours relies on popularity.  You only dismiss mine.  A person with sensus Cathlicus would not shoot such valuable insight down without investigating thoroughly, first. Right out of the gate you dismissed all of it and you haven't stopped. But your reasons were shot down.  For instance, you say Scripture doesn't describe the earth.  But it does.  Read for yourself.  Then, observe what the Fathers teach and what they don't teach on the subject.  Observe what the enemy teaches, another sign.  Then you said, we can't know.  But we can, if the Fathers have shown how.  Then you say that the Church didn't condemn heliocentrism.  But She did in 1633.  Then you said we aren't able to understand Scripture.  But we are encouraged to study Scripture and believe what it teaches, as long as it doesn't conflict with Church teaching, which flat earth does not do.  Then you said, it isn't infallible.  What the Church does teach, is infallible.  And the Church has spoken on related issues, not only condemning heliocentrism, but also teaching for over a 1000 years that Jerusalem is the center of the world and that anti-podes do not exist... not to mention the Fathers have provided incredible insight similar to parables on the subject that not only make sense, but provide a working model that agrees with Scripture.  Honestly, you were given many opportunities, many proofs that match up like a well oiled clock.  The globe matches up with pagan history and pagan scientists and is promoted by pagan liars like NASA who serve the globalist agenda.  If you don't believe, that's up to you.  I believe.  And I'm going to continue to show as many people as I can the glorious truth of God's creation because the Church, the Fathers, Scripture and reason all support it.  Why would I sink to borrow a condemned proposition and hold it as truth?  Never.
    No need to become impatient.  I will do the same.  Keep studying and ask questions.  No one minds that.  
    The Fathers were giving their personal opinions, since they were not unanimously teaching on a matter of faith.  Enoch is neither inspired nor authoritative.  There is no reason to believe it is true. Cosmas was some random monk with weird ideas that nobody paid attention to throughout the history of the Church until anti-Catholics wanted to prove that we were stupid enough to believe in flat earth.  You are not getting valuable insights from them.  Nothing from these sources represents Church teaching.

    You are in conflict with Church teaching because you are taking literally what the Church teaches is figurative.  Church teaching on heliocentrism is not related to flat earth. You are wrong about everything and appear to understand nothing of what you read.  You give authority to sources that have none and misunderstand the sources that do. You are not spreading truth.  It is false from beginning to end.  Worst of all, you attribute all these wrong ideas to the Church.


    Offline happenby

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2768
    • Reputation: +1077/-1637
    • Gender: Female
    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #92 on: February 01, 2018, 03:35:12 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
  • The Fathers were giving their personal opinions, since they were not unanimously teaching on a matter of faith.  Enoch is neither inspired nor authoritative.  There is no reason to believe it is true. Cosmas was some random monk with weird ideas that nobody paid attention to throughout the history of the Church until anti-Catholics wanted to prove that we were stupid enough to believe in flat earth.  You are not getting valuable insights from them.  Nothing from these sources represents Church teaching.

    You are in conflict with Church teaching because you are taking literally what the Church teaches is figurative.  Church teaching on heliocentrism is not related to flat earth. You are wrong about everything and appear to understand nothing of what you read.  You give authority to sources that have none and misunderstand the sources that do. You are not spreading truth.  It is false from beginning to end.  Worst of all, you attribute all these wrong ideas to the Church.
    You already know I'm not in conflict with Church teachings because Scripture teaches first in the literal sense.  What pray tell is your alternative?  You haven't got a Scriptural explanation.  You just refute.  Then you accuse.  You too deserve the same treatment as Neil.  You have called me a liar one too many times. 
    Back at ya baby.
    "Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum."
    (A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.)

    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6173
    • Reputation: +3147/-2941
    • Gender: Female
    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #93 on: February 01, 2018, 04:20:28 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • You already know I'm not in conflict with Church teachings because Scripture teaches first in the literal sense.  What pray tell is your alternative?  You haven't got a Scriptural explanation.  You just refute.  Then you accuse.  You too deserve the same treatment as Neil.  You have called me a liar one too many times.  
    Back at ya baby.
    "Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum."
    (A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.)

    Hey, that rhymes in both Latin and English.  :D

    Jayne is like a female version of Neil. Definitely. Two peas in a pod. Thankfully, though, she does not drone on and on and on about moon phases. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline noOneImportant

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 223
    • Reputation: +138/-168
    • Gender: Male
    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #94 on: February 01, 2018, 04:48:54 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
  • Unlike Neil, Jaynek is actually a reasonable human being. Unfortunately, everyone else on this subforum with the exception of Ladislaus appears to be either braindead and/or a troll. I'm surprised she still bothers.


    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6173
    • Reputation: +3147/-2941
    • Gender: Female
    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #95 on: February 01, 2018, 05:13:04 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Unlike Neil, Jaynek is actually a reasonable human being. Unfortunately, everyone else on this subforum with the exception of Ladislaus appears to be either braindead and/or a troll. I'm surprised she still bothers.

    Just wondering....did you used to post on the old Ignis Ardens forum as 'Nadie Importante'? I could easily be wrong, but you have basically the same username as he did. He was Hispanic, if I recall correctly.  
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline noOneImportant

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 223
    • Reputation: +138/-168
    • Gender: Male
    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #96 on: February 01, 2018, 06:14:53 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Nope, wasn't me

    Offline Jaynek

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3874
    • Reputation: +1993/-1112
    • Gender: Female
    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #97 on: February 01, 2018, 06:22:32 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • You already know I'm not in conflict with Church teachings because Scripture teaches first in the literal sense.  What pray tell is your alternative?  You haven't got a Scriptural explanation.  
    You do not understand what the term "literal sense" means no matter how many times this is explained to you.  It does not mean to take figurative expressions (especially those which the Church has identified as figurative) literally.  St. Thomas taught: "by words things are signified properly and figuratively. Nor is the figure itself, but that which is figured, the literal sense. When Scripture speaks of God's arm, the literal sense is not that God has such a member, but only what is signified by this member, namely operative power." 

    My "Scriptural alternative" is to agree with St. Basil's view of the shape of the earth.  Scripture is "silent as to shapes".  The shape of the earth is "unimportant to us."  Scripture is for "the edification and making perfect of our souls." 

    This was the position of St. Augustine and St. Thomas.  This is the position taught by Leo XIII and subsequent popes:  "the sacred writers, or to speak more accurately, the Holy Ghost "Who spoke by them, did not intend to teach men these things (that is to say, the essential nature of the things of the visible universe), things in no way profitable unto salvation."

    When something is taught over most of the Church's history, by Fathers, Doctors and in papal encyclicals, that is what is rightly called Church teaching.  Catholics believe that we should not look in Scripture to discover the shape of the earth because Scripture is silent.  That question is a matter for natural science.

    Everything you claim to be Church teaching about the earth's shape is wrong, a product of your mistaken understanding.  There is no Church teaching that the earth is flat and there never has been.