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Author Topic: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?  (Read 10720 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
« Reply #75 on: February 01, 2018, 12:24:15 PM »
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  • There are two sources for Catholic truth according to the Church.  One is Tradition and the other is Scripture and they work together to bring about revelation for the salvation of man.  This is Catholic teaching.  Jaynek has no choice but to accept it or leave.
    But the Church has the sole authority to interpret Scripture.  Scripture that is being understood in opposition to the interpretive principles taught by the Church is not revelation of truth.  It is likely to lead to heresy.  Almost every heresy that ever existed has claimed to be based on Scripture.

    I do not have to accept anybody's personal interpretation of Scripture.  It would be highly imprudent to do so when I see people taking literally that which the Church has taught is figurative.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #76 on: February 01, 2018, 12:28:25 PM »
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  • Ok, lets be specific.  Proof of what?  Proof that earth is a globe?  Proof that the Church didn't teach earth is flat?  Proof of what?  
    Most often you claim I have not given proof when I quote a source on a matter of history such as medieval Christendom accepting spherical earth and the Ptolemaic model.


    Offline happenby

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #77 on: February 01, 2018, 12:35:47 PM »
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  • But the Church has the sole authority to interpret Scripture.  Scripture that is being understood in opposition to the interpretive principles taught by the Church is not revelation of truth.  It is likely to lead to heresy.  Almost every heresy that ever existed has claimed to be based on Scripture.

    I do not have to accept anybody's personal interpretation of Scripture.  It would be highly imprudent to do so when I see people taking literally that which the Church has taught is figurative.
    That's true, the Church maintains the authority to interpret Scripture.  But that doesn't mean we cannot read it and understand it.  If, for instance, you come to a wrong conclusion, the Church provides opinion and/or teaching for better understanding how it is to be understood when you do read it.  For instance, the Protestants come to the conclusion that faith alone saves.  The Church preempted their heresy showing Scripture teaches faith and works.  That is why the opinion of the Fathers who taught geocentric flat earth matters and the Fathers that taught fe base most of it on Scripture, but also on Moses and Enoch.  There are no Fathers who use Scripture to prove earth is a globe.  Not even one.      

    Offline happenby

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #78 on: February 01, 2018, 12:42:52 PM »
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  • Most often you claim I have not given proof when I quote a source on a matter of history such as medieval Christendom accepting spherical earth and the Ptolemaic model.
    If everyone accepts earth is a globe is proof earth is a globe, then I could believe any religion I want based on today's modern acceptance of religion.  That just isn't proof.  Acceptance that earth was a globe back then (if true, you haven't really proven that either) can just as easily prove that people were indoctrinated.  I am not being difficult, I'm asking for real proof that doesn't ignore the other aspects of Church teaching.
    Let me ask you, what are the top three reasons you believe earth is a globe?   

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #79 on: February 01, 2018, 12:44:48 PM »
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  • For the obedient, this is the conclusion of this discussion.

    Second to the last sentence reads:
    ...the Index retains its moral force despite its dissolution.
    And the last sentence contains " A decision against distributing and recommending a work... may be reversed."  This is what happened in the case of books about heliocentrism.  The decision was reversed and the works were removed from the Index because the condemnation had been lifted. From the 1835 edition onwards, books were not put on the Index for promoting heliocentrism.  

    There is no moral force to avoid a book when the Church reverses her decision on it.  The docuмent is talking about the situation after the dissolution of the Index in the 1960s and applying it to a specific work. It was still a bad thing to read.  


    Offline happenby

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #80 on: February 01, 2018, 12:45:38 PM »
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  • But the Church has the sole authority to interpret Scripture.  Scripture that is being understood in opposition to the interpretive principles taught by the Church is not revelation of truth.  It is likely to lead to heresy.  Almost every heresy that ever existed has claimed to be based on Scripture.

    I do not have to accept anybody's personal interpretation of Scripture.  It would be highly imprudent to do so when I see people taking literally that which the Church has taught is figurative.
    You do not have to accept anybody's personal interpretation of Scripture.  That is 100% true.  But that doesn't mean you ought not test the Spirit when faced with something new, in case there's something you didn't know.  Also, if the person brings support from Tradition, you should take even more time looking into it.  Praying about it is always a good idea. 

    Offline happenby

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #81 on: February 01, 2018, 12:47:45 PM »
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  • And the last sentence contains " A decision against distributing and recommending a work... may be reversed."  This is what happened in the case of books about heliocentrism.  The decision was reversed and the works were removed from the Index because the condemnation had been lifted. From the 1835 edition onwards, books were not put on the Index for promoting heliocentrism.  

    There is no moral force to avoid a book when the Church reverses her decision on it.  The docuмent is talking about the situation after the dissolution of the Index in the 1960s and applying it to a specific work. It was still a bad thing to read.  
    True, but only after revision and correction, which never happened.  The fact the Church insists the moral force is maintained to this day shows that nothing has changed.  Not only in 1966 but during the reign of Benedict the XVI.  You have nothing since do you?

    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #82 on: February 01, 2018, 12:49:47 PM »
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  • But the Church has the sole authority to interpret Scripture.  Scripture that is being understood in opposition to the interpretive principles taught by the Church is not revelation of truth.  It is likely to lead to heresy.  Almost every heresy that ever existed has claimed to be based on Scripture.

    I do not have to accept anybody's personal interpretation of Scripture. 
    Please quote and reference the Church teaching on the multiple passages that say earth does not move.
    Please show how these teachings contradict Scripture, and make those passages merely figurative. 
    Thanks.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #83 on: February 01, 2018, 01:00:58 PM »
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  • That's true, the Church maintains the authority to interpret Scripture.  But that doesn't mean we cannot read it and understand it.  If, for instance, you come to a wrong conclusion, the Church provides opinion and/or teaching for better understanding how it is to be understood when you do read it.  For instance, the Protestants come to the conclusion that faith alone saves.  The Church preempted their heresy showing Scripture teaches faith and works.  That is why the opinion of the Fathers who taught geocentric flat earth matters and the Fathers that taught fe base most of it on Scripture, but also on Moses and Enoch.  There are no Fathers who use Scripture to prove earth is a globe.  Not even one.      
    There are, however, Fathers who taught not to use Scripture for determining the shape of the earth and other such matters of natural science.  And this teaching was the one that persisted through the centuries, eventually becoming magisterial teaching from multiple popes. This is what is rightly called Church teaching. The opinion of the Fathers who believed in flat earth does not matter.  It was merely their personal opinions and the belief died out.  It is not relevant if they based it on Scripture. Their personal opinions have no authority.  It is even more irrelevant if they based it on Enoch, a book the Church later decided was aprocryphal.  

    Could you explain what you mean by "on Scripture, but also on Moses and Enoch"?  Is there some work by Moses that is not part of Scripture?

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #84 on: February 01, 2018, 01:06:49 PM »
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  • Let me ask you, what are the top three reasons you believe earth is a globe?  
    Time zones. Seasons.  Our Lady of the Globe.

    But, I don't care if you believe the earth is flat, as long as stop falsely claiming this is Church teaching.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #85 on: February 01, 2018, 01:25:25 PM »
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  • True, but only after revision and correction, which never happened.  The fact the Church insists the moral force is maintained to this day shows that nothing has changed.  Not only in 1966 but during the reign of Benedict the XVI.  You have nothing since do you?

    Books on the Index have been removed after revision and correction or, in the case of heliocentrism, because the condemnation of it was lifted by papal decree.  Works on the Index do not necessary remain forever on the Index.  They may be removed.  The Index, therefore, cannot be treated as irreformable and infallible.

    When the Church takes a work off the Index, the "moral force" of this decision is that it is OK to read the book.  There is no principle of "once on the Index always on the Index."

    This is a docuмent which responds to the mistaken idea that now that the Index is dissolved we can read whatever we feel like.  That's just wrong.  Works on the Index were there for a good reason, usually reasons which still apply.  But none of this is relevant to works which the Church has decided to remove from the Index.  They were removed for a good reason and we are free to read them.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #86 on: February 01, 2018, 01:33:46 PM »
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  • You do not have to accept anybody's personal interpretation of Scripture.  That is 100% true.  But that doesn't mean you ought not test the Spirit when faced with something new, in case there's something you didn't know.  Also, if the person brings support from Tradition, you should take even more time looking into it.  Praying about it is always a good idea.
    Every single argument here in support of flat earth being a Church teaching was a bad argument.  I did not ignore them.  I thought about them, but I could see that they were simply wrong, based on incorrect assumptions and misunderstandings.  You do not have support from Tradition.  None.  

    I need to pray a lot when dealing with these discussions, but mainly for patience.

    Offline happenby

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #87 on: February 01, 2018, 01:43:08 PM »
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  • Time zones. Seasons.  Our Lady of the Globe.

    But, I don't care if you believe the earth is flat, as long as stop falsely claiming this is Church teaching.
    Clearly, that is not a globe, but a dome. 

    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #88 on: February 01, 2018, 01:45:05 PM »
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  • No movement:
    1 Chron 16:30
    Psalm 93:1
    Psalm 96:10
    Psalm 104:5
    Isaiah 45:18
    Notice Jaynek cannot refute this?

    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #89 on: February 01, 2018, 01:51:37 PM »
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  • Time zones. Seasons.  Our Lady of the Globe.

    But, I don't care if you believe the earth is flat, as long as stop falsely claiming this is Church teaching.
    She is standing on the dome of the Firmament.
    See the clouds?