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Author Topic: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?  (Read 10705 times)

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Offline happenby

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Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
« Reply #60 on: February 01, 2018, 10:39:05 AM »
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  • Have you read the Bull?  It cannot possibly say what you claim. Each of the 20 published editions of the Index was different.  Books were added and books were removed.  
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_Librorum_Prohibitorum#Abolition_(1966)


    Specifically in relation to Pope Alexander:
     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Alexander_VII

    The Index does not show that heliocentrism was condemned forever.  It shows that the last traces of opposition to heliocentrism completely disappeared in 1835.  (This was the first edition of the Index to appear after Pius VII lifted the condemnation.)
    The Rev. Mr. Roberts showed from the original record that Pope Paul V, in 1616, had presided over the tribunal condemning the doctrine of the earth's movement, and ordering Galileo to give up the opinion. He showed that Pope Urban VIII, in 1633, pressed on, directed, and promulgated the final condemnation, making himself in all these ways responsible for it. Alexander VII, in 1664, by his bull,—Speculatores domus Israel,—attached to the Index, condemning "all books which affirm the motion of the earth," had absolutely pledged the papal infallibility against the earth's movement. He also confessed that under the rules laid down by the highest authorities in the Church, and especially by Sixtus V and Pius IX, there was no escape from this conclusion.
    This bull confirmed and approved in express terms, finally, decisively, and infallibly, the condemnation of "all books teaching the movement of the earth and the stability of the sun."[1]

    Offline RoughAshlar

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #61 on: February 01, 2018, 10:41:47 AM »
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  • Jaynek,
    To be honest, I would just stop.  No amount of discussion/argument/debate is going to change your mind or theirs.  


    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #62 on: February 01, 2018, 10:51:24 AM »
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  • Do you DENY that the Bible is de fide, part of the Deposit of Faith?
    Jaynek refuses to answer.
    Therefore,  I assume she does not believe the Bible to be de fide part of the Deposit of Faith.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #63 on: February 01, 2018, 10:53:45 AM »
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  • No one can "lift" a condemnation.  Its like Francis trying to make it acceptable for the divorced and remarried to receive communion.  Modernism was in full swing before Pius X born in 1835 which is why he condemned it.  It was already a problem back then.  Modernism did not only just arrive with VII.  If you read the Bull, you'll see it holds forever, bound upon the consciences of men.
    Pius VII decreed that "no obstacles exist for those who sustain Copernicus’ affirmation regarding the earth’s movement in the manner in which it is affirmed today" and the books were removed from the Index.  That looks like the lifting of a condemnation to me.  

    Are you claiming that this did not happen or somehow did not count?  Are you saying the Pope Pius VII was a modernist?  I can not find any sources to back your claim that modernism was in full swing before 1835.  I've seen late 1800s. Could you supply a citation please.  

    I can only find excerpts from the Bull.  These do not support your claim.   Please give me a link for reading the whole thing, if you have one.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #64 on: February 01, 2018, 11:02:11 AM »
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  • The Rev. Mr. Roberts showed from the original record that Pope Paul V, in 1616, had presided over the tribunal condemning the doctrine of the earth's movement, and ordering Galileo to give up the opinion. He showed that Pope Urban VIII, in 1633, pressed on, directed, and promulgated the final condemnation, making himself in all these ways responsible for it. Alexander VII, in 1664, by his bull,—Speculatores domus Israel,—attached to the Index, condemning "all books which affirm the motion of the earth," had absolutely pledged the papal infallibility against the earth's movement. He also confessed that under the rules laid down by the highest authorities in the Church, and especially by Sixtus V and Pius IX, there was no escape from this conclusion.
    This bull confirmed and approved in express terms, finally, decisively, and infallibly, the condemnation of "all books teaching the movement of the earth and the stability of the sun."[1]
    The Rev. Mr. Roberts is exaggerating the authority of docuмents that support his pet theory.  The Bull did not transform the non-infallible Index into an infallible teaching.  The Index is disciplinary rather than doctrinal and therefore cannot be infallible.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #65 on: February 01, 2018, 11:05:39 AM »
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  • Jaynek,
    To be honest, I would just stop.  No amount of discussion/argument/debate is going to change your mind or theirs.  
    I do not expect to change their minds. If anyone comes here to investigate their claims, I want them to find all the evidence that flat-earthers misrepresent Church teaching. I hope to prevent them from leading others astray.

    Offline happenby

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #66 on: February 01, 2018, 11:52:20 AM »
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  • The Rev. Mr. Roberts is exaggerating the authority of docuмents that support his pet theory.  The Bull did not transform the non-infallible Index into an infallible teaching.  The Index is disciplinary rather than doctrinal and therefore cannot be infallible.
    Actually, the things you posted having lifted them from the Internet are the exaggerations.  The people you glean your information from are anti-flat earth.  How can you expect to fully understand the argument if you always go to the naysayers?  The Church cannot condemn something for 200 hundred years and then take it back.  Either the Church lied, or the condemnations stand.  There is no other way. 

    Offline happenby

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #67 on: February 01, 2018, 11:54:14 AM »
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  • I keep asking you what you think this proof should look like since you keep saying the history references I give are not proof.    Is there anything that you would admit is proof?
    Ok, lets be specific.  Proof of what?  Proof that earth is a globe?  Proof that the Church didn't teach earth is flat?  Proof of what?  


    Offline happenby

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #68 on: February 01, 2018, 11:55:51 AM »
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  • I do not expect to change their minds. If anyone comes here to investigate their claims, I want them to find all the evidence that flat-earthers misrepresent Church teaching. I hope to prevent them from leading others astray.
    I would agree with Jaynek on this.  The fleshing out of a subject may be necessary to get to the facts.  People can decide for themselves.   

    Offline Truth is Eternal

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #69 on: February 01, 2018, 11:56:56 AM »
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  • I do not expect to change their minds. If anyone comes here to investigate their claims, I want them to find all the evidence that flat-earthers misrepresent Church teaching. I hope to prevent them from leading others astray.
    You still are unable to prove that the horizontal horizon is not horizontal. It is you who are misrepresenting Church teaching. YOU NEED TO CONVERT.

    Offline happenby

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #70 on: February 01, 2018, 12:04:36 PM »
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  • You still are unable to prove that the horizontal horizon is not horizontal. It is you who are misrepresenting Church teaching. YOU NEED TO CONVERT.
    The Church is never unreasonable.  Science is never unreasonable.  The globe is so unreasonable it boggles the mind anyone might try to hold on to it once they've heard there's no proof for it.  Upside down and stuck to a ball?  Talk about backward thinking.  But further, there's no proof for it. Math doesn't support it.  Science doesn't support it.  Reason doesn't support it.  The Church doesn't support it.  However...pagans do support it.  The occult supports it.  Freemasonic government supports it.  Globalists have only proven the power of indoctrination.     


    Offline happenby

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #71 on: February 01, 2018, 12:08:17 PM »
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  • Jaynek refuses to answer.
    Therefore,  I assume she does not believe the Bible to be de fide part of the Deposit of Faith.
    There are two sources for Catholic truth according to the Church.  One is Tradition and the other is Scripture and they work together to bring about revelation for the salvation of man.  This is Catholic teaching.  Jaynek has no choice but to accept it or leave. 

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #72 on: February 01, 2018, 12:18:23 PM »
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  • Actually, the things you posted having lifted them from the Internet are the exaggerations.  The people you glean your information from are anti-flat earth.  How can you expect to fully understand the argument if you always go to the naysayers?  The Church cannot condemn something for 200 hundred years and then take it back.  Either the Church lied, or the condemnations stand.  There is no other way.
    I try to confirm everything I post from original or multiple sources.  And I already see everything that flat-earthers post to support their position, so there is no reason for me to seek out that side.

    I have read the docuмent that removes the condemnation, not just a second hand account of it.  Do you have some evidence that it is not genuine?  Continually repeating that it cannot happen when it has in fact happened is rather silly.  The options are to say the condemnation was wrong (JPII's position), the removal was wrong, or to find a way to reconcile them.  This last is my position.

    I started a thread in December in which I explained how I understood the initial condemnation and its later removal.  It's called something like "Galileo was wrong and the Church was right to condemn him."  That summarizes my opinion.  If you want more detail, please see the thread.

    Offline happenby

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #73 on: February 01, 2018, 12:22:22 PM »
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  • For the obedient, this is the conclusion of this discussion.

    Second to the last sentence reads:
    ...the Index retains its moral force despite its dissolution.


    On 14 June 1966, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith responded to inquiries it had received regarding the continued moral obligation concerning books that had been listed in the Index. The response spoke of the books as examples of books dangerous to faith and morals, all of which, not just those once included in the Index, should be avoided regardless of the absence of any written law against them. The Index, it said, retains its moral force "inasmuch as" (quatenus) it teaches the conscience of Christians to beware, as required by the natural law itself, of writings that can endanger faith and morals, but it (the Index of Forbidden Books) no longer has the force of ecclesiastical law with the associated censures.[50]
    The congregation thus placed on the conscience of the individual Christian the responsibility to avoid all writings dangerous to faith and morals, while at the same time abolishing the previously existing ecclesiastical law and the relative censures,[51] without thereby declaring that the books that had once been listed in the various editions of the Index of Prohibited Books had become free of error and danger.
    In a letter of 31 January 1985 to Cardinal Giuseppe Siri, regarding the book Poem of the Man God, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (then Prefect of the Congregation, who later became Pope Benedict XVI), referred to the 1966 notification of the Congregation as follows: "After the dissolution of the Index, when some people thought the printing and distribution of the work was permitted, people were reminded again in L'Osservatore Romano (15 June 1966) that, as was published in the Acta Apostolicae Sedis (1966), the Index retains its moral force despite its dissolution. A decision against distributing and recommending a work, which has not been condemned lightly, may be reversed, but only after profound changes that neutralize the harm which such a publication could bring forth among the ordinary faithful."[52]

    Offline happenby

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #74 on: February 01, 2018, 12:24:02 PM »
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  • I try to confirm everything I post from original or multiple sources.  And I already see everything that flat-earthers post to support their position, so there is no reason for me to seek out that side.

    I have read the docuмent that removes the condemnation, not just a second hand account of it.  Do you have some evidence that it is not genuine?  Continually repeating that it cannot happen when it has in fact happened is rather silly.  The options are to say the condemnation was wrong (JPII's position), the removal was wrong, or to find a way to reconcile them.  This last is my position.

    I started a thread in December in which I explained how I understood the initial condemnation and its later removal.  It's called something like "Galileo was wrong and the Church was right to condemn him."  That summarizes my opinion.  If you want more detail, please see the thread
    It may have happened that some tried to release the consciences of men regarding these issues.  I can see that.  However, if you read the last post, you'll see that the moral force of the Index remains.