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Author Topic: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?  (Read 10695 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2018, 05:46:57 PM »
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  • Ok, so you believe NASA?  You believe earth is spinning and jetting through space in 4 different directions?  In doing so, you ignore the condemnation of the Church directly.  That makes it a slam dunk you know you're wrong.  
    And by the way, the Church did condemn the heliocentric moving earth, so She very much has a problem with people believing in what She condemned.  
    I don't care what NASA says.  It is not lying about Church teaching like you are.
    Why would anyone think that the Church had the authority to condemn Galileo but not to lift the condemnation?  It was wrong to teach heliocentrism when the church forbade it, but it was officially changed in 1820 by papal decree.  There is no longer a problem with it.

    Offline Truth is Eternal

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #31 on: January 31, 2018, 05:51:50 PM »
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  • I don't care what NASA says.  It is not lying about Church teaching like you are.
    Why would anyone think that the Church had the authority to condemn Galileo but not to lift the condemnation?  It was wrong to teach heliocentrism when the church forbade it, but it was officially changed in 1820 by papal decree.  There is no longer a problem with it.
    If you didn't care what NASA says, you wouldn't try to elevate their false globe earth deception so much.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #32 on: January 31, 2018, 06:02:01 PM »
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  • Please provide your proofs of this.
    People complain that I am spamming when I repeatedly quote the same things and yet you act like they have never appeared on the forum before.

    Quote
    The monk Bede (c. 672–735) wrote in his influential treatise on computus, The Reckoning of Time, that the Earth was round. He explained the unequal length of daylight from "the roundness of the Earth, for not without reason is it called 'the orb of the world' on the pages of Holy Scripture and of ordinary literature. It is, in fact, set like a sphere in the middle of the whole universe." (De temporum ratione, 32). The large number of surviving manuscripts of The Reckoning of Time, copied to meet the Carolingian requirement that all priests should study the computus, indicates that many, if not most, priests were exposed to the idea of the sphericity of the Earth.[49] Ælfric of Eynsham paraphrased Bede into Old English, saying, "Now the Earth's roundness and the Sun's orbit constitute the obstacle to the day's being equally long in every land."[50]

    Bede was lucid about earth's sphericity, writing "We call the earth a globe, not as if the shape of a sphere were expressed in the diversity of plains and mountains, but because, if all things are included in the outline, the earth's circuмference will represent the figure of a perfect globe... For truly it is an orb placed in the centre of the universe; in its width it is like a circle, and not circular like a shield but rather like a ball, and it extends from its centre with perfect roundness on all sides."[51]

    Gregory of Nyssa:

    Quote
     As, when the sun shines above the earth, the shadow is spread over its lower part, because its spherical shape makes it impossible for it to be clasped all round at one and the same time by the rays, and necessarily, on whatever side the sun's rays may fall on some particular point of the globe, if we follow a straight diameter, we shall find shadow upon the opposite point, and so, continuously, at the opposite end of the direct line of the rays shadow moves round that globe, keeping pace with the sun, so that equally in their turn both the upper half and the under half of the earth are in light and darkness;



    Offline happenby

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #33 on: January 31, 2018, 06:04:48 PM »
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  • I don't care what NASA says.  It is not lying about Church teaching like you are.
    Why would anyone think that the Church had the authority to condemn Galileo but not to lift the condemnation?  It was wrong to teach heliocentrism when the church forbade it, but it was officially changed in 1820 by papal decree.  There is no longer a problem with it.
    Oh, but NASA IS lying about Church teaching.  It says Church teaching about stationary earth is a lie.  It says that earth is moving in four different directions at the same time!  And you dare call me the liar when I have proof for what I say, but they just bald face lie? 
    As for the Church "changing Her mind"... Not possible.
     
    Action by the Congregation of the Index
    Quote
    In 1616 the Congregation of the Index -- founded by St. Pius V in 1571 and now headed by Cardinal Bellarmine acting in the name of Paul V -- was forced to take action, based on the findings of consultors to the Holy Office. Without naming Galileo, it banned all writings which treated of Copernicanism as anything but an unproven hypothesis,
    Quote
    "because it has come to the attention of this Congregation that the Pythagorean doctrine which is false and contrary to Holy Scripture, which teaches the motion of the earth and the immobility of the sun, and which is taught by Nicholas Copernicus in De Revolutionibus Orbium Caelestium and by Diego de Zuniga's On Job, is now being spread and accepted by many - as may be seen from a letter of a Carmelite Father entitled 'Letter of the Rev. Father Paolo Antonio Foscarini, Carmelite, on the Opinion of the Pythagoreans and of Copernicus concerning the Motion of the Earth and the Stability of the Sun, and the New Pythagorean System of the World,' printed in Naples by Lazzaro Scoriggio in 1615: in which the said Father tries to show that the doctrine of the immobility of the sun in the center of the world, and that of the earth's motion, is consonant with truth and is not opposed to Holy Scripture.
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    "Therefore, so that this opinion may not spread any further to the prejudice of Catholic truth, it ( the Sacred Congregation ) decrees that the said Nicholas Copernicus' De Revolutionibus Orbium, and Diego de Zuniga's On Job, be suspended until corrected; but that the book of the Carmelite Father, Paolo Foscarini, be prohibited and condemned, and that all other books likewise, in which the same is taught, be prohibited."
    Continuinng Condemnation: 1664
    Quote
    Quote
    Taking her information from The Pontifical Decrees against the Doctrine of the Earth's Movement and the Ultramontane Defense of Them , compiled in 1870 by the English Catholic priest William W. Roberts, the Catholic creationist writer Paula Haigh has pointed out that a generation after Galileo's death:
    "In 1664 the Church went to further lengths to extirpate his error: The Index for that year was prefixed by a Bull. Entitled Speculatores Domus Israel, it was signed by Pope Alexander VII, who declared, 'We, having taken the advice of our Cardinals, confirm and approve with Apostolic authority by the tenor of these presents, and command and enjoin all persons everywhere to yield to this Index a constant and complete obedience.'
    Quote
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    "The importance of this docuмent cannot be minimized, for it included and re-affirmed not only previous formal condemnations, but 'all the relevant decrees up to the present time, that have been issued since the Index of our predecessor Clement'" Miss Haigh therefore rightly concludes, "The evidence for papal infallibility in the Galileo case rests then upon the Bull of Alexander VII in 1664."
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    She discerns a twofold basis for its authority: "1) The decrees of the Index and the Inquisition which were based on the truth of the Church's tradition, especially as in this case it rested upon the unanimity of the Fathers and the constant position of the Church; and 2) the infallibility of the Pope speaking in his own official capacity as Head of the Church and therefore ex cathedra, even though not defining any new dogma but simply affirming tradition.
    Quote
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    "The modern theologians have never addressed the problem posed by this Bull of Alexander VII. If they had, they would need to admit its direct papal authority and search for some subsequent docuмent by a subsequent pope that formally and specifically abrogated, i.e., nullified the 1664 Bull. But no such docuмent has ever been found or produced.
     
    After giving the text of Galileo's abjuration, Fr. Langford says: "The condemnation of Galileo was now complete. The scientist had tried to batter down the old view of the universe and the traditional exegesis of Scripture by beating his head against a wall of conservatism and mocking those who felt that it should not be torn down ... "(29) Thus have the truths of faith, i.e., that the Scriptures are inerrant and that the Church can rule upon their meaning -- for all time -- these truths have been cast by Fr. Langford and most of his contemporaries, into the ephemerally temporal political category of a stiff-necked conservatism.
     But the Decree of the Holy Office against Galileo has never been abrogated -- nor can it be. The wording is quite absolute.




    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #34 on: January 31, 2018, 06:28:57 PM »
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  • Oh, but NASA IS lying about Church teaching.  It says Church teaching about stationary earth is a lie.  It says that earth is moving in four different directions at the same time!  And you dare call me the liar when I have proof for what I say, but they just bald face lie?  
    As for the Church "changing Her mind"... Not possible.
    There is no Church teaching about a stationary earth.  NASA is not saying anything about such a teaching because it does not exist. You may actually believe what you are saying, but it is not true and you have not proven it.  You are misrepresenting Church teaching over and over.


    It does not matter how many quotes you find claiming that the condemnation of Galilieo could not be changed, it is a matter of historical record that it was. I gave the quotes and links in a thread I made around a month ago. https://www.cathinfo.com/the-earth-god-made-flat-earth-geocentrism/galileo-was-wrong-and-the-church-was-right-to-condemn-him/


    Offline happenby

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #35 on: January 31, 2018, 06:40:04 PM »
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  • People complain that I am spamming when I repeatedly quote the same things and yet you act like they have never appeared on the forum before.

    Gregory of Nyssa:

    So when the Church condemns moving earth and Gregory of Nyssa simply talks about his beliefs, the Church is wrong but Gregory of Nyssa is right?  As if this passing statement of St. Gregory is infallible and the Church is not?  You are quite mistaken in your discernment. 

    Offline happenby

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #36 on: January 31, 2018, 06:41:47 PM »
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  • There is no Church teaching about a stationary earth.  NASA is not saying anything about such a teaching because it does not exist. You may actually believe what you are saying, but it is not true and you have not proven it.  You are misrepresenting Church teaching over and over.


    It does not matter how many quotes you find claiming that the condemnation of Galilieo could not be changed, it is a matter of historical record that it was. I gave the quotes and links in a thread I made around a month ago. https://www.cathinfo.com/the-earth-god-made-flat-earth-geocentrism/galileo-was-wrong-and-the-church-was-right-to-condemn-him/
    Yes, the Church condemned the notion that earth is moving.  NASA denies that condemnation and says earth is moving.  That denial of Church condemnation which is official teaching, is the heart of this discussion.  You've chosen to believe NASA over the Church. 

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #37 on: January 31, 2018, 06:51:45 PM »
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  • So when the Church condemns moving earth and Gregory of Nyssa simply talks about his beliefs, the Church is wrong but Gregory of Nyssa is right?  As if this passing statement of St. Gregory is infallible and the Church is not?  You are quite mistaken in your discernment.
    Yes, the Church condemned the notion that earth is moving.  NASA denies that condemnation and says earth is moving.  That denial of Church condemnation which is official teaching, is the heart of this discussion.  You've chosen to believe NASA over the Church.  
    I believe the papal decree in 1820 that removed the condemnation and said "no obstacles exist for those who sustain Copernicus’ affirmation regarding the earth’s movement in the manner in which it is affirmed today."  This is just as much official Church teaching as the original condemnation was.  I am not influenced by what NASA says but I am accepting the teaching of Pope Pius VII.  Why do you refuse to accept the teaching of the Church?


    Offline aryzia

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #38 on: January 31, 2018, 08:29:18 PM »
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  • I believe the papal decree in 1820 that removed the condemnation and said "no obstacles exist for those who sustain Copernicus’ affirmation regarding the earth’s movement in the manner in which it is affirmed today."  This is just as much official Church teaching as the original condemnation was.  I am not influenced by what NASA says but I am accepting the teaching of Pope Pius VII.  Why do you refuse to accept the teaching of the Church?
    Ridiculous. The Church then, would be a liar for having condemned the moving globe and stationary sun. Not possible.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #39 on: January 31, 2018, 08:46:59 PM »
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  • Ridiculous. The Church then, would be a liar for having condemned the moving globe and stationary sun. Not possible.
    There was a papal decree removing the condemnation and one can find information about this from a variety of sources.  There is no reason to doubt that it happened.

    I have read a few theories to explain the apparent discrepancy and gave one of my own in the thread I linked to a few posts up.  But there was never any question of a condemnation by the Holy Office being infallible (it never has that authority), so it's not as if an infallible teaching were changed.

    It is not an option to pretend that the removal of the condemnation did not happen.  It is too well attested for that.  This is just as much Church teaching as the condemnation was.  

    People are free to believe geocentrism if they wish, but they may not claim that it is the sole acceptable Catholic position.  (Ladislaus is an example of someone believes in geocentrism while acknowledging other positions are allowed.)


    Offline happenby

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #40 on: January 31, 2018, 09:03:36 PM »
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  • There was a papal decree removing the condemnation and one can find information about this from a variety of sources.  There is no reason to doubt that it happened.

    I have read a few theories to explain the apparent discrepancy and gave one of my own in the thread I linked to a few posts up.  But there was never any question of a condemnation by the Holy Office being infallible (it never has that authority), so it's not as if an infallible teaching were changed.

    It is not an option to pretend that the removal of the condemnation did not happen.  It is too well attested for that.  This is just as much Church teaching as the condemnation was.  

    People are free to believe geocentrism if they wish, but they may not claim that it is the sole acceptable Catholic position.  (Ladislaus is an example of someone believes in geocentrism while acknowledging other positions are allowed.)
    Its not possible to remove condemnations.  There is no precedence.  The Church cannot make a mistake like that.  What you're saying is that for 200 years the Church flat out lied. Just because the condemnation was issued out of the Holy Office doesn't mean the condemnations weren't infallible.  The backstory of what the Pope was saying in the background and the interaction with St. Robert Bellarmine regarding all the details prove otherwise.  Besides, all teachings, even of those of the ordinary magisterium, are to be believed.  Fr. William Roberts explains why the condemnations are Catholic teaching and before you go down the road you're going, you ought to read his book.  The Pontifical Decrees of the Doctrine of Earth's Movement and the Ultramontane Defense of Them  
    An Excerpt...
    From generation to generation this tale is told, much to the delight of anti-Catholics and much to the inconvenience of Catholics. The tale is told not, mind you, because anyone within the Church now actually denies that the earth does move, nor do they deny that Galileo was right all along or that the Church of 1616/1633 couldn’t tell faith from science, but because Catholics want their infallibility and their fixed sun and moving earth. As one can see, the only way to have this cake and at the same time eat it is to deny that the anti-Copernican decrees of 1616-1633 had any real authority at all, that they were like a bad joke gone wrong. 2 Perhaps the most honest history ever written of the Galileo case – and the casuistry that followed the alleged ‘proofs’ that earth moves and was not placed by God at the centre of the world, and that the sun stood still – was A History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom, 1896, a book by Andrew Dickson White. He records that the history of the denial of infallibility of the 1616-1633 antiCopernican decree began even before Galileo died. At first they resorted to a denial that the Copernican theory was declared formal heresy and conjured up a load of excuses that sufficed for the world who had no other facts to judge the matter on, but who simply trusted Churchmen to feed them the truth as expected. But as the archives were opened up and the records themselves were made public, it was soon seen the faithful had been led astray. And as each objection to infallibility was shown to be a contradiction of the facts, the apologists became even more desperate. Andrew White tells us what happens next: …This contention, then, was at last utterly given up by honest Catholics themselves. In I870 a Roman Catholic clergyman in England, the Rev. Mr Roberts, evidently thinking that the time had come to tell the truth, published a book entitled The Pontifical Decrees against the Earth’s Movement, and in this exhibited the incontrovertible evidences that the papacy had committed itself and its infallibility fully against the movement of the earth--Introductory commentary by a Catholic layman in 2002


    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #41 on: January 31, 2018, 10:44:17 PM »
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  • There is no Church teaching about a stationary earth.  NASA is not saying anything about such a teaching because it does not exist. You may actually believe what you are saying, but it is not true and you have not proven it.  You are misrepresenting Church teaching over and over.


    It does not matter how many quotes you find claiming that the condemnation of Galilieo could not be changed, it is a matter of historical record that it was. I gave the quotes and links in a thread I made around a month ago. https://www.cathinfo.com/the-earth-god-made-flat-earth-geocentrism/galileo-was-wrong-and-the-church-was-right-to-condemn-him/
    Church explicitly teaches earth does not move.
    De fide.

    Offline aryzia

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #42 on: January 31, 2018, 11:03:14 PM »
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  • I believe the papal decree in 1820 that removed the condemnation and said "no obstacles exist for those who sustain Copernicus’ affirmation regarding the earth’s movement in the manner in which it is affirmed today."  This is just as much official Church teaching as the original condemnation was.  I am not influenced by what NASA says but I am accepting the teaching of Pope Pius VII.  Why do you refuse to accept the teaching of the Church?
    Happenby posted something incredibly damning to your argument above.
    "In 1664 the Church went to further lengths to extirpate his error: The Index for that year was prefixed by a Bull. Entitled Speculatores Domus Israel, it was signed by Pope Alexander VII, who declared, 'We, having taken the advice of our Cardinals, confirm and approve with Apostolic authority by the tenor of these presents, and command and enjoin all persons everywhere to yield to this Index a constant and complete obedience.'

    This conversation is over. Heliocentrism stands forever condemned.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #43 on: February 01, 2018, 03:47:12 AM »
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  • Its not possible to remove condemnations.  There is no precedence.  The Church cannot make a mistake like that.  What you're saying is that for 200 years the Church flat out lied. Just because the condemnation was issued out of the Holy Office doesn't mean the condemnations weren't infallible.  The backstory of what the Pope was saying in the background and the interaction with St. Robert Bellarmine regarding all the details prove otherwise.  Besides, all teachings, even of those of the ordinary magisterium, are to be believed.  Fr. William Roberts explains why the condemnations are Catholic teaching and before you go down the road you're going, you ought to read his book.  The Pontifical Decrees of the Doctrine of Earth's Movement and the Ultramontane Defense of Them  
    An Excerpt...

    From generation to generation this tale is told, much to the delight of anti-Catholics and much to the inconvenience of Catholics. The tale is told not, mind you, because anyone within the Church now actually denies that the earth does move, nor do they deny that Galileo was right all along or that the Church of 1616/1633 couldn’t tell faith from science, but because Catholics want their infallibility and their fixed sun and moving earth. As one can see, the only way to have this cake and at the same time eat it is to deny that the anti-Copernican decrees of 1616-1633 had any real authority at all, that they were like a bad joke gone wrong. 2 Perhaps the most honest history ever written of the Galileo case – and the casuistry that followed the alleged ‘proofs’ that earth moves and was not placed by God at the centre of the world, and that the sun stood still – was A History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom, 1896, a book by Andrew Dickson White. He records that the history of the denial of infallibility of the 1616-1633 antiCopernican decree began even before Galileo died. At first they resorted to a denial that the Copernican theory was declared formal heresy and conjured up a load of excuses that sufficed for the world who had no other facts to judge the matter on, but who simply trusted Churchmen to feed them the truth as expected. But as the archives were opened up and the records themselves were made public, it was soon seen the faithful had been led astray. And as each objection to infallibility was shown to be a contradiction of the facts, the apologists became even more desperate. Andrew White tells us what happens next: …This contention, then, was at last utterly given up by honest Catholics themselves. In I870 a Roman Catholic clergyman in England, the Rev. Mr Roberts, evidently thinking that the time had come to tell the truth, published a book entitled The Pontifical Decrees against the Earth’s Movement, and in this exhibited the incontrovertible evidences that the papacy had committed itself and its infallibility fully against the movement of the earth--Introductory commentary by a Catholic layman in 2002

    You claim it is not possible to remove condemnations and yet that is exactly what happened.  Since Pius VII did in fact remove the condemnation of heliocentrism your claim must be incorrect.  I do not think that the Church was lying or wrong when she made the condemnation.  I have already linked to the thread in which I gave my thoughts on this.

    I am surprised that you are prepared to acknowledge Andrew Dickson White, notorious for his anti-religion views and his collection of books on witchcraft, as an authority on the Church.  But since you do, here is an excerpt from a summary of his book:

    Quote
    Chapter 2 Geography
    The spherical ideas of PythagorasPlato and Aristotle had replaced earlier ideas from Chaldeans and Egyptians of a flat earth. The church fathers favoured the idea of a solid roof or firmament over the earth and this was elaborated early on, but in the Middle Ages most followed authorities such as Thomas Aquinas in accepting sphericityJerusalem was accepted as the centre of the world and a refusal to accept the existence of antipodes led many to assume that the other side of the world was entirely aqueous. Opposition to the antipodes did not cease for centuries after Magellan's voyages and also contributed to underestimates of the size of the earth, which happened to help Columbus. Religious feeling encouraged the expansion of Europeans across the globe.

    Chapter 3 Astronomy
    Despite earlier more literal ideas, the Ptolemaic view of a geocentric universe was fully adopted by the Church, adding an immovable heavenly sphere above the stars and hell below the earth. In the sixteenth century, Copernicus challenged this view but his book was not published until after his death, when it was given a preface suggesting that it was simply a hypothesis. When Galileo used his telescope to show other reasons for rejecting the Ptolemaic view he faced opposition from both Catholics and Protestants. He was forced to renounce his sun-centred view, which was not formally accepted by the Catholic church before the nineteenth century. In England attacks continued into the eighteenth.

    While I personally would not trust the opinion of an author with an anti-religion agenda on which Church teachings are infallible (especially when many Catholics say otherwise), he does confirm various points about history that you have been refusing to accept, claiming that I had not proved them.  Note his position that, as I've said, Catholics by the Middle Ages believed the earth is a sphere and that the Ptolemaic model (which includes a spherical earth) was adopted by the Church.  He also confirms that the Church formally accepted heliocentrism early in the nineteenth century, as I've been telling you.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: May Catholics believe science that comes from pagans?
    « Reply #44 on: February 01, 2018, 04:14:17 AM »
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  • Happenby posted something incredibly damning to your argument above.
    "In 1664 the Church went to further lengths to extirpate his error: The Index for that year was prefixed by a Bull. Entitled Speculatores Domus Israel, it was signed by Pope Alexander VII, who declared, 'We, having taken the advice of our Cardinals, confirm and approve with Apostolic authority by the tenor of these presents, and command and enjoin all persons everywhere to yield to this Index a constant and complete obedience.'

    This conversation is over. Heliocentrism stands forever condemned.

    You do not seem to understand what the papal Bull is stating.  Pope Alexander republished the Index of condemned books and is telling people to obey it.  The Bull is not specifically about heliocentrism but about the authority of the Index. Because the Index is disciplinary rather than doctrinal, it can and did change. Later, the Index, with the exact same level of authority, removed books promoting heliocentrism, indicating the Church now allowed this model.  There is nothing about a pope enjoining obedience to the Index that implies heliocentrism stands forever condemned.  On the contrary, the Index confirms that the condemnation was removed.