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Author Topic: Kolbe Center Conference in St. Mary's about the errors of Fr. Robinsons book  (Read 5195 times)

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Offline Banezian

Re: Kolbe Center Conference in St. Mary's about the errors of Fr. Robinsons book
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2019, 04:00:36 PM »
Quote from: apollo on February 21, 2019, 03:15:36 PM
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You failed to mention the disclaimer that St Robert Bellarmine said, as follow:
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"8. Third. I say that if there were a true demonstration that the sun was in the center of the universe and the earth in the third sphere, and that the sun did not travel around the earth, but the earth circled around the sun, then it would be necessary to proceed with great caution in explaining the passages of Scripture which seemed contrary, and we would rather have to say that we did not understand them, than to say that something was false which has been demonstrated."
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And you also failed to mention the disclaimer of St Augustine, as follows:
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"If what they [astronomers] say is proved by unquestionable arguments, this holy Father does not say that the astronomers are to be ordered to dissolve their proofs and declare their own conclusions to be false. Rather, he says it must be demonstrated that what is meant in the Bible ... is not contrary to their proofs."
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They never make this kind of disclaimer on infallible teachings of the Church, such as the divinity of Christ,
so your claim that Geocentrism is an infallible teaching of the Church is a damn LIE.  
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BTW, I am taking a college course in astronomy and I'm going to invite the whole class and the professor
over to my house for dinner next Sunday.  How would you like to come over and help me convert them to
Catholicism, by giving your proof of Geocentrism?
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Yes. The Fathers were not dogmatic on these things
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Offline cassini

Re: Kolbe Center Conference in St. Mary's about the errors of Fr. Robinsons book
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2019, 04:51:55 PM »
Quote from: apollo on February 21, 2019, 03:15:36 PM
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You failed to mention the disclaimer that St Robert Bellarmine said, as follow:
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"8. Third. I say that if there were a true demonstration that the sun was in the center of the universe and the earth in the third sphere, and that the sun did not travel around the earth, but the earth circled around the sun, then it would be necessary to proceed with great caution in explaining the passages of Scripture which seemed contrary, and we would rather have to say that we did not understand them, than to say that something was false which has been demonstrated."
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And you also failed to mention the disclaimer of St Augustine, as follows:
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"If what they [astronomers] say is proved by unquestionable arguments, this holy Father does not say that the astronomers are to be ordered to dissolve their proofs and declare their own conclusions to be false. Rather, he says it must be demonstrated that what is meant in the Bible ... is not contrary to their proofs."
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They never make this kind of disclaimer on infallible teachings of the Church, such as the divinity of Christ,
so your claim that Geocentrism is an infallible teaching of the Church is a damn LIE.  
.
BTW, I am taking a college course in astronomy and I'm going to invite the whole class and the professor
over to my house for dinner next Sunday.  How would you like to come over and help me convert them to
Catholicism, by giving your proof of Geocentrism?
.

Oh my Apollo, how does one reply to someone who I suspect is not for turning. First you are correct, I did not give all of Bellarmine's letter to Foscarini, only the bit relevant to show the geocentrism of Scripture was a matter of FAITH.

What you 'failed to mention' was the last bit of your quote that agrees with the facts then and now:

‘Third. I say that if there were a true demonstration that the sun was in the centre of the universe and the Earth in the third sphere, and that the sun did not travel around the Earth but the Earth circled the sun, then it would be necessary to proceed with great caution in explaining the passages of Scripture which seemed contrary, and we would rather have to say that we did not understand them than to say that something was false which has been demonstrated. But as for myself, I do not believe that there is any such demonstration; none has been shown to me. It is not the same thing to show that the appearances are saved by assuming that the sun is at the centre and the Earth is in the heavens, as it is to demonstrate that the sun really is in the centre and the Earth in the heavens. I believe that the first demonstration might exist, but I have grave doubts about the second, and in a case of doubt, one may not depart from the Scriptures as explained by the holy Fathers. I add that the words “the sun also riseth and the sun goeth down, and hasteneth to the place where he ariseth, etc.” were those of Solomon, who not only spoke by divine inspiration but was a man wise above all others and most learned in human sciences and in the knowledge of all created things, and his wisdom was from God. Thus it is not too likely that he would affirm something which was contrary to a truth either already demonstrated, or likely to be demonstrated.

Ever heard of Albert Einstein Apollo? Do you not know he too admitted heliocentrism was not proven, just like Bellarmine said. The same goes for St Augustine. You quote him as though proof for heliocentrism was shown.

Now if I am a Liar regarding infallibility, then so too was Pope Urban VII, and the Holy Office of 1820. I do not decide what is infallible or not as you seen to, I go by what the Church teaches.

Finally, I would love to join your class but I am too far away. And it is God who converts people. He uses others yes, but they must be open to the truth first. Now if I was there, and maybe you will pass this on, I would tell them that proof for God is in His creation (a Catholic dogma). Then tell them about the creation that God made. Everything is PERFECT, everything they need for life ,like air, food of every kind and flavour, clothing of so many kinds, stone and cement materials man needs for housing, and so many kinds of timber, metal, glass etc., etc., comes from the Earth He created.  Do they really think nature on its own came from nothing to provide every single one of man's needs? What about a field of clay? Does anyone really believe such material that can provide endless supplies of food happened by chance?
As for astronomy, do they know that the Bible tells us that there are as many stars as grains of sand on Earth? Ask them to count the number of grains in one handful. It will take them years to count one handful. That is God showing us His Omnipotence. Ask them if they ever heard of God's astronomer Giovanni Cassini who showed us Kepler and Newton's ellipse was wrong, that the real orbits are electromagnetic Cassinian ovals, the same ovals found in blood cells, snails, leaves and God knows how many other things in God's creation. Any of them believe in an electromagnetic universe (God created 'light.' Finally, according to Science, a la Einstein, geocentrism is as possible as heliocentrism. But according to stellar aberration only a geocentric universe is possible in Einstein's STR. How many of your pupils could understand why this is so?

Instead I would say you will probably tell them evolution is only possible if God does the miracles needed to make the impossible things necessary for evolution to work. Finally, no man can prove geocentrism or geocentrism. All man has to go on in science is evidence, and the only evidence is in favour of geocentrism. We see it working every day with our own eyes. But there is another way to truth, divine truth called faith. Catholics are supposed to believe in what we can see. we are also supposed to believe what the Bible says, and what all the Fathers say the Bible says. They all say the Earth is at the center and that the sun, moon, planets asnd stars go around it in a manner that gives us day and night for sleep, seasons for growth and rest for plants. Tell them to watch God at work in the trees around them. Pieces of wood suddenly give out leaves and flowers, just like magic. How did evolution arrange such miracles every year?
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Offline apollo

Re: Kolbe Center Conference in St. Mary's about the errors of Fr. Robinsons book
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2019, 08:00:30 PM »
Quote from: cassini on February 21, 2019, 04:51:55 PM
1. I did not give all of Bellarmine's letter to Foscarini, only the bit relevant to show the geocentrism of Scripture was a matter of FAITH.

2. Ever heard of Albert Einstein Apollo? Do you not know he too admitted heliocentrism was not proven, just like Bellarmine said. The same goes for St Augustine. You quote him as though proof for heliocentrism was shown.

3. Now if I am a Liar regarding infallibility, then so too was Pope Urban [Pius actually] VII, and the Holy Office of 1820. I do not decide what is infallible or not as you seem to, I go by what the Church teaches.

4. Finally, I would love to join your class but I am too far away ... blah, blah, blah.
As for astronomy, do they know that the Bible tells us that there are as many stars ... blah, blah, blah.
Any of them believe in an electromagnetic universe ... blah, blah, blah.

5. Instead I would say you will probably tell them evolution is only possible if God ... blah, blah, blah.

6. Finally, no man can prove geocentrism or geocentrism [heliocentrism?]. All man has to go on in science is evidence, and the only evidence is in favour of geocentrism. We see it working every day with our own eyes. [telescopes are useless?] But there is another way to truth, divine truth called faith. Catholics are supposed to believe in what we can see. we are also supposed to believe what the Bible says, [the earth shall not be moved? What a scientific statement.] and what all the Fathers say the Bible says [now the Fathers are infallible?]. They all say the Earth is at the center [the word "center" is not in the Bible, anywhere.] and that the sun, moon, planets and stars go around it in a manner that gives us day and night ... blah, blah, blah.
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1. If Geocentrism is a matter of Faith, then the Catholic Church has contradicted itself.  Pope Paul VII (1616 decree) disagrees with Pope Pius VII (1822 decree).  Either the Holy Spirit has contradicted Himself [not possible] or it's NOT a matter of Faith [very possible] or Pope Paul VII is a heretic and all following popes are heretics for failure to call him a heretic [not very likely].
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2. I never said anything about Heliocentrism.  I said Geocentrism is NOT a matter of Faith.  Pope Pius VII decree of 1822 says the same.  If the Church Fathers believed that bloodletting cures headaches is that a matter of Faith?  Scripture's proof of Geocentrism is nonexistent. Scripture is written in the language of the day.  That's what Pope Leo XIII said in "Providentissimus Deus".  Do you realize that if you are standing on Mars, the Sun will appear to COME UP in the morning and GO DOWN in the evening.  So then Mars must be the center of the universe [not a good measure for which planet is the center of the universe, because they all rotate, except for Mercury].
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3. The current teaching of the Church is that it cannot reject Heliocentrism and cannot refused to give permission to publish material favorable to Heliocentrism, the decree of 1822 by Pope Pius VII.  You do NOT go by this, therefore you have LIED again.
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4. They believe in telescopes, a serious problem for Geocentrism.  The ASTRONOMY class has nothing to do with Darwin and his "evolution".  It's more about what can be observed with telescopes.  Ever heard of Stellar Paralax.  It cannot be observed without
telescopes.  It can be observed with good telescopes, which actually disproves Geocentrism.  Sorry.
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5. It's not about Evolution nor Modernism.  It's about looking through telescopes.  No faith required.
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6. The evidence is NOT in favor of Geocentrism.  The evidence shows that the Earth is orbiting the Sun.  The evidence is called, Stellar Paralax.  There is another problem for Geocentrism.  The galaxy of Andromeda would have to be traveling in orbit around the Earth at a speed of 6,000,000 TIMES THE SPEED OF LIGHT.  Neptune would have to be going faster than the speed of light. 
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I look forward to your next "blah, blah, blah", repetition of all the lies you keep publishing.
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Offline Banezian

Re: Kolbe Center Conference in St. Mary's about the errors of Fr. Robinsons book
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2019, 08:17:06 PM »
Quote from: apollo on February 21, 2019, 08:00:30 PM
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1. If Geocentrism is a matter of Faith, then the Catholic Church has contradicted itself.  Pope Paul VII (1616 decree) disagrees with Pope Pius VII (1822 decree).  Either the Holy Spirit has contradicted Himself [not possible] or it's NOT a matter of Faith [very possible] or Pope Paul VII is a heretic and all following popes are heretics for failure to call him a heretic [not very likely].
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2. I never said anything about Heliocentrism.  I said Geocentrism is NOT a matter of Faith.  Pope Pius VII decree of 1822 says the same.  If the Church Fathers believed that bloodletting cures headaches is that a matter of Faith?  Scripture's proof of Geocentrism is nonexistent. Scripture is written in the language of the day.  That's what Pope Leo XIII said in "Providentissimus Deus".  Do you realize that if you are standing on Mars, the Sun will appear to COME UP in the morning and GO DOWN in the evening.  So then Mars must be the center of the universe [not a good measure for which planet is the center of the universe, because they all rotate, except for Mercury].
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3. The current teaching of the Church is that it cannot reject Heliocentrism and cannot refused to give permission to publish material favorable to Heliocentrism, the decree of 1822 by Pope Pius VII.  You do NOT go by this, therefore you have LIED again.
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4. They believe in telescopes, a serious problem for Geocentrism.  The ASTRONOMY class has nothing to do with Darwin and his "evolution".  It's more about what can be observed with telescopes.  Ever heard of Stellar Paralax.  It cannot be observed without
telescopes.  It can be observed with good telescopes, which actually disproves Geocentrism.  Sorry.
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5. It's not about Evolution nor Modernism.  It's about looking through telescopes.  No faith required.
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6. The evidence is NOT in favor of Geocentrism.  The evidence shows that the Earth is orbiting the Sun.  The evidence is called, Stellar Paralax.  There is another problem for Geocentrism.  The galaxy of Andromeda would have to be traveling in orbit around the Earth at a speed of 6,000,000 TIMES THE SPEED OF LIGHT.  Neptune would have to be going faster than the speed of light.  
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I look forward to your next "blah, blah, blah", repetition of all the lies you keep publishing.
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All correct. Finally, someone who has the patience to correct these fundie nuts
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Offline cassini

Re: Kolbe Center Conference in St. Mary's about the errors of Fr. Robinsons book
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2019, 06:58:27 AM »
Quote from: apollo on February 21, 2019, 08:00:30 PM
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1. If Geocentrism is a matter of Faith, then the Catholic Church has contradicted itself.  Pope Paul VII (1616 decree) disagrees with Pope Pius VII (1822 decree).  Either the Holy Spirit has contradicted Himself [not possible] or it's NOT a matter of Faith [very possible] or Pope Paul VII is a heretic and all following popes are heretics for failure to call him a heretic [not very likely].
 
I look forward to your next "blah, blah, blah", repetition of all the lies you keep publishing.

1. The Catholic Church does not contradict itself. But one has to know the difference between the 'Catholic Church' and the utterences and behaviour of men. When a Pope defines a matter of faith or morals, he speaks for the Catholic Church. That was the 1616 decree of Pope Paul V. Vatican Council I set out the conditions for infallibility for this 1616 decree:

‘The Roman Pontiffs, moreover, according to the condition of the times and affairs advised, sometimes by calling ecuмenical councils… sometimes by particular synods, sometimes by employing other helps which divine providence supplied, have defined that those matters must be held which with God’s help they have recognised as in agreement with Sacred Scripture and apostolic tradition. For, the Holy Spirit was not promised to the successors of Peter that by His revelation they might disclose new doctrine, but that by His help they might guard sacredly the revelation transmitted through the apostles and the deposit of faith, and might forcefully set it out…’ --- Vatican I (1869-1870) (Denz. 1836.)

When a pope puts a book on the index, or takes one off it, that is not a teaching of the Catholic Church. That is what Pope Pius VII and Gregory XVI did in 1820 and 1835. Pope Paul VI took every book off the Index in 1965, but every heresy in them remained heresies. Pope Paul VI was never accused of allowing the heresies in these books as you infer happened in 1820 and after that. Those who allow or promulgate heresies are heretics, but there are different KINDS of heresies and heritics. There are formal heretics, those who know what they are promulgating is opposed to a Church dogmas and there are material heretics, those who do not know what they allow or believe is directly contrary to a dogma. And in this case the popes were told the non-violent heliocentrism was NOT HERETICAL and that is the heliocentrism these popes allowed. Material heresy does not result in punishment. However, if one is shown the truth and one choses to deny the 1616 dercree, then their material heresy becomes formal.
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