Author Topic: Is the Sun 93,000,000 mi away? Nope. (Read 18892 times)

Meg · « **Reply #75 on:** September 19, 2017, 02:10:22 PM »

I think that most traditional Catholics believe that the Miracle of the Sun did occur at Fatima, which Our Lady pointed to as proof of her appearance from Heaven. Here's one account of the event, from an eye-witness who observed the Miracle of the Sun:

"Everybody stood still and quiet.....At a certain point, the sun stopped its play of light and then started dancing until it seemed to loosen itself from the skies and fall upon the people. It was a moment of terrible suspense."

(The True Story of Fatima by John De Marchi I.M.C.)

What I find interesting is that if the sun were truly 93,000,000 miles from earth, how could the sun then be loosened from the Heaven, and appear larger as if falling down toward the People?

The sun would need to be loosened and made to travel a great distance to appear closer to earth as it did at Fatima, if it were really that far away. It makes more sense that the sun is much closer than what the modern scientists tell us it is.

St Ignatius · « **Reply #76 on:** September 19, 2017, 02:26:46 PM »

Quote from: Meg on September 19, 2017, 02:10:22 PM

What I find interesting is that if the sun were truly 93,000,000 miles from earth, how could the sun then be loosened from the Heaven, and appear larger as if falling down toward the People?

The sun would need to be loosened and made to travel a great distance to appear closer to earth as it did at Fatima, if it were really that far away. It makes more sense that the sun is much closer than what the modern scientists tell us it is.

Ahhh.... never thought of an Omnipotent God being limited before... hmmm...

That explains why the entire universe must be limited to a finite premise...

Meg · « **Reply #77 on:** September 19, 2017, 02:32:27 PM »

Quote from: St Ignatius on September 19, 2017, 02:26:46 PM

Ahhh.... never thought of an Omnipotent God being limited before... hmmm...

That explains why the entire universe must be limited to a finite premise...

I'm not saying that God cannot do that. But, can you estimate how many millions of miles the sun would have to travel out of its supposed orbit in order to appear closer to the earth?

St Ignatius · « **Reply #78 on:** September 19, 2017, 02:33:24 PM »

Quote from: kiwiboy on September 19, 2017, 05:16:12 AM

Not playing any mind games. It is simple logic.

Flat earth argument is based on science principally.

There is no need to present the fallacies that follow as a result of saying the earth has curvature. It should be obvious. But I will do so anyway.

The entire idea that there is a universe of stars billions of miles across is one error that follows. The notion that the earth goes around the sun is another. Gravity, with all its inconsistencies is another.

Also we have all pseudo science relating to space travel. Satellites which float above us without baloon support is one more. This list goes on and on. I don't have time to write all of them. Sorry. Just start investigating the flat earth for yourself and and it will start falling into place.

Sorry kiwi, you didn't provide a shred of evidence.

Let's get back to basics...

Quote from: DZ PLEASE on September 18, 2017, 06:55:02 PM

(emph. and layout via poster)

"41. The authority of the learned in matters relating to their specialties demands our prudent assent.

The authority of the savant in his peculiar domain, should be respected by the unlearned, since he who by the culture of his mind is fitted to apprehend a truth may impose it on him who could not of himself attain to its knowledge. But as the learned themselves are competent to examine the particular truths in question, they should judge the authority of other scientists by their own reason. Hence we may formulate the following three rules :
1. The authority of scientists should be accepted so long as there is no reasonable ground to believe it false or to suspect it; it should be rejected, if it is known to be false ;
2. Every scientist is a competent judge only in the science of which he is master;
3. One scientist may accept the affirmations of another, when he cannot himself ascertain their truth or demonstrate their falsity;* yet he may reject them if the opposite arguments are of equal weight."
* For a clear exposition of the harmony between the positive results of science and the truths of faith, consult Apologia de la Foi Chretienne."

f/ "ELEMENTARY COURSE OF CHRISTIAN PHILOSOPHY BASED ON THE PRINCIPLES OF The Best Scholastic Authors" by L. de Poissy, pp. 136-137 (P. O'Shea 1893)

St Ignatius · « **Reply #79 on:** September 19, 2017, 02:37:43 PM »

Quote from: Meg on September 19, 2017, 02:32:27 PM

I'm not saying that God cannot do that. But, can you estimate how many millions of miles the sun would have to travel out of its supposed orbit in order to appear closer to the earth?

mir·a·cle
ˈmirək(ə)l/
noun

a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency.

Meg · « **Reply #80 on:** September 19, 2017, 02:39:45 PM »

Quote from: St Ignatius on September 19, 2017, 02:37:43 PM

mir·a·cle
ˈmirək(ə)l/
noun
a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency.

Okay....but how many millions of miles would you estimate that God would have to move the sun in order for it to appear so close to the earth?

St Ignatius · « **Reply #81 on:** September 19, 2017, 02:43:11 PM »

Quote from: Meg on September 19, 2017, 02:39:45 PM

Okay....but how many millions of miles would you estimate that God would have to move the sun in order for it to appear so close to the earth?

Well, I wasn't there... so I can't say just how close it may have come to the earth. But, 93,000,000 miles if He had to...

Meg · « **Reply #82 on:** September 19, 2017, 02:51:04 PM »

Quote from: St Ignatius on September 19, 2017, 02:43:11 PM

Well, I wasn't there... so I can't say just how close it may have come to the earth. But, 93,000,000 miles if He had to...

Alright. I estimate (rather unscientifically) that if the sun were really 93,000,000 miles away, God would have to move it at least half that distance, and rather quickly. Seems like an extreme measure to move the sun millions of miles toward to the earth, and then back again, in a quick manner. But God could do it, of course. It just seems unlikely.

IMO, it makes more sense that the sun is closer to the earth than 93,000,000 miles away. A lot closer. Just like the Ancient Hebrews believed, long ago, based on Scripture.

St Ignatius · « **Reply #83 on:** September 19, 2017, 03:00:00 PM »

Quote from: Neil Obstat on September 18, 2017, 02:45:13 PM

I find it telling that flat-earthers have made no response to your challenge.
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You invited them to do a thought experiment, but they cannot, because they can't think.
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The challenge is simple and the silence in response is self-explanatory.
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Flat-earthers have no response, except to jump topic to an unrelated non-sequitur.
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They have also stepped around my presentation of HF radio waves transmitted between two-way radios beyond the horizon like it was doggy doo-doo on the sidewalk.

Now how about explaining away this...

What is GPS?

The Global Positioning System (GPS) is a satellite-based navigation system made up of at least 24 satellites. GPS works in any weather conditions, anywhere in the world, 24 hours a day, with no subscription fees or setup charges. The U.S. Department of Defense (USDOD) originally put the satellites into orbit for military use, but they were made available for civilian use in the 1980s.
How GPS works
GPS satellites circle the Earth twice a day in a precise orbit. Each satellite transmits a unique signal and orbital parameters that allow GPS devices to decode and compute the precise location of the satellite. GPS receivers use this information and trilateration to calculate a user's exact location. Essentially, the GPS receiver measures the distance to each satellite by the amount of time it takes to receive a transmitted signal. With distance measurements from a few more satellites, the receiver can determine a user's position and display it electronically to measure your running route, map a golf course, find a way home or adventure anywhere.

To calculate your 2-D position (latitude and longitude) and track movement, a GPS receiver must be locked on to the signal of at least 3 satellites. With 4 or more satellites in view, the receiver can determine your 3-D position (latitude, longitude and altitude). Generally, a GPS receiver will track 8 or more satellites, but that depends on the time of day and where you are on the earth. Some devices can do all of that from your wrist.
Once your position has been determined, the GPS unit can calculate other information, such as:

Speed
Bearing
Track
Trip distance
Distance to destination
Sunrise and sunset time
And more

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How accurate is GPS?
Today's GPS receivers are extremely accurate, thanks to their parallel multi-channel design. Our receivers are quick to lock onto satellites when first turned on. They maintain a tracking lock in dense tree-cover or in urban settings with tall buildings. Certain atmospheric factors and other error sources can affect the accuracy of GPS receivers. Garmin GPS receivers are typically accurate to within 10 meters. Accuracy is even better on the water.
Some Garmin GPS receiver accuracy is improved with WAAS (Wide Area Augmentation System). This capability can improve accuracy to better than 3 meters, by providing corrections to the atmosphere. No additional equipment or fees are required to take advantage of WAAS satellites. Users can also get better accuracy with Differential GPS (DGPS), which corrects GPS distances to within an average of 1 to 3 meters. The U.S. Coast Guard operates the most common DGPS correction service, consisting of a network of towers that receive GPS signals and transmit a corrected signal by beacon transmitters. In order to get the corrected signal, users must have a differential beacon receiver and beacon antenna in addition to their GPS.
Other GPS Systems
There are other similar systems to GPS in the world, which are all classified as the Global Navigation Satellite System (GNSS). GLONASS is a satellite constellation system built by Russia. The European Space Agency is creating Galileo, while China is creating BeiDou. Most Garmin receivers track both GLONASS and GPS, and some even track BeiDou. You can expect a more reliable solution when you track more satellites. You could be tracking nearly 20 with newer Garmin products.
The GPS Satellite System
The 31 satellites that currently make up the GPS space segment are orbiting the earth about 12,000 miles above us. These satellites are constantly moving, making two complete orbits in less than 24 hours. They travel at speeds of roughly 7,000 miles an hour. Small rocket boosters keep each satellite flying on the correct path.
Here are some other interesting facts about the GPS satellites:[/font][/size]

The official USDOD name for GPS is NAVSTAR
The first GPS satellite was launched in 1978.
A full constellation of 24 satellites was achieved in 1994.
Each satellite is built to last about 10 years. Replacements are constantly being built and launched into orbit.
A GPS satellite weighs approximately 2,000 pounds and is about 17 feet across with the solar panels extended.
GPS satellites are powered by solar energy, but they have backup batteries onboard, in case of a solar eclipse.
Transmitter power is only 50 Watts or less.

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What's the signal?
GPS satellites transmit at least 2 low-power radio signals. The signals travel by line of sight, meaning they will pass through clouds, glass and plastic but will not go through most solid objects, such as buildings and mountains. However, modern receivers are more sensitive and can usually track through houses.
A GPS signal contains 3 different types of information:[/font][/size]

Pseudorandom code is an I.D. code that identifies which satellite is transmitting information. You can see which satellites you are getting signals from on your device's satellite page.
Ephemeris data is needed to determine a satellite's position and gives important information about the health of a satellite, current date and time.
Almanac data tells the GPS receiver where each GPS satellite should be at any time throughout the day and shows the orbital information for that satellite and every other satellite in the system.

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GPS Signal Errors Sources
Factors that can affect GPS signal and accuracy include the following:[/font][/size]

Ionosphere and troposphere delays:Satellite signals slow as they pass through the atmosphere. The GPS system uses a built-in model to partially correct for this type of error.
Signal multipath: The GPS signal may reflect off objects such as tall buildings or large rock surfaces before it reaches the receiver, which will increase the travel time of the signal and cause errors.
Receiver clock errors: A receiver's built-in clock may have slight timing errors because it is less accurate than the atomic clocks on GPS satellites.
Orbital errors: The satellite's reported location may not be accurate.
Number of satellites visible: The more satellites a GPS receiver can "see," the better the accuracy. When a signal is blocked, you may get position errors or possibly no position reading at all. GPS units typically will not work underwater or underground, but new high-sensitivity receivers are able to track some signals when inside buildings or under tree-cover.
Satellite geometry/shading: Satellite signals are more effective when satellites are located at wide angles relative to each other, rather than in a line or tight grouping.
Selective availability: The U.S. Department of Defense once applied Selective Availability (SA) to satellites, making signals less accurate in order to keep 'enemies' from using highly accurate GPS signals. The government turned off SA in May of 2000, which improved the accuracy of civilian GPS receivers.

St Ignatius · « **Reply #84 on:** September 19, 2017, 03:05:08 PM »

Quote from: Meg on September 19, 2017, 02:51:04 PM

IMO, it makes more sense that the sun is closer to the earth than 93,000,000 miles away. A lot closer. Just like the Ancient Hebrews believed, long ago, based on Scripture.

It just may be closer... but I'm going to need solid evidence to convince me otherwise. I try not to be guided by emotion but rather those things which don't contradict reason... common-sense.

Meg · « **Reply #85 on:** September 19, 2017, 03:30:46 PM »

Quote from: St Ignatius on September 19, 2017, 03:05:08 PM

It just may be closer... but I'm going to need solid evidence to convince me otherwise. I try not to be guided by emotion but rather those things which don't contradict reason... common-sense.

You are of course quite right to say that you try not be guided by emotion but rather by those things which do not contradict reason....common sense. I agree.

St Ignatius · « **Reply #86 on:** September 19, 2017, 03:36:05 PM »

Quote from: Meg on September 19, 2017, 03:30:46 PM

You are of course quite right to say that you try not be guided by emotion but rather by those things which do not contradict reason....common sense. I agree.

Well thank you Meg... now my other duties call...

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #87 on:** September 19, 2017, 03:58:15 PM »

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Does someone using GPS and relying on its accuracy to keep them from getting lost (personal safety, matter of life and death) have to BELIEVE in GPS satellites before the system can work?
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Or can you disbelieve in satellites and still use GPS to save your life?
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Similarly, did someone have to believe in miracles in order to watch the Miracle of the Sun in Fatima?
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Were there any non-believers at Fatima who could not see the miracle, or were there non-believers who could see it happening?
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Were there any Nietzschean skeptics who stood there saying, "Sun? What sun? I don't see any sun!"
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When Our Lord performed miracles, were the miracles only knowable and apparent to believers, and invisible to non-believers?
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When He raised Lazarus from the dead, were non-believers in the crowd unable to see Lazarus walking out of the tomb?
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When He multiplied the loaves and fishes, did non-believers in the crowd have nothing to eat and could they not see the scraps being collected?
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When the man born blind was cured and could see, were the ancients of the people who questioned him unable to observe him with normal sight -- did he still appear to them as a blind man, or did he appear to them as a man now able to see?
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Neil Obstat · « **Reply #88 on:** September 19, 2017, 04:11:20 PM »

Quote from: Meg on September 19, 2017, 02:10:22 PM

I think that most traditional Catholics believe that the Miracle of the Sun did occur at Fatima, which Our Lady pointed to as proof of her appearance from Heaven. Here's one account of the event, from an eye-witness who observed the Miracle of the Sun:

"Everybody stood still and quiet.....At a certain point, the sun stopped its play of light and then started dancing until it seemed to loosen itself from the skies and fall upon the people. It was a moment of terrible suspense."

(The True Story of Fatima by John De Marchi I.M.C.)

What I find interesting is that if the sun were truly 93,000,000 miles from earth, how could the sun then be loosened from the Heaven, and appear larger as if falling down toward the People?

The sun would need to be loosened and made to travel a great distance to appear closer to earth as it did at Fatima, if it were really that far away. It makes more sense that the sun is much closer than what the modern scientists tell us it is.

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I know a man who is a Communist atheist. When I told him about the Miracle of the Sun, his response was, "The sun did not come careening toward the earth. That's nonsense."
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I met a man who told me when we were having a conversation about perception, "What chandelier? I don't see any chandelier." We were standing in a classical ballroom in the evening, with an enormous chandelier in the center of the huge domed ceiling. It was the only light source in the whole room.
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God never commanded us to make sense out of His miracles. He never said that you have to rationalize them or else you have no faith. God has not given us orders to question His power, and has never made it a prerequisite of our reception of grace.
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On the contrary, He has asked us where we were when He laid the foundations of the world, and He has said He would utter things never heard since those foundations were laid.
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Do you suppose there might be any other things never heard since the foundations of the world?
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Or has God suddenly run out of surprises?
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Neil Obstat · « **Reply #89 on:** September 19, 2017, 04:19:21 PM »

Quote from: Neil Obstat on September 17, 2017, 07:02:15 PM

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Translated, this means 92,955,807 miles away, which is less than 93 million miles away.
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Author Topic: Is the Sun 93,000,000 mi away? Nope. (Read 18892 times)

Meg

Re: Is the Sun 93,000,000 mi away? Nope.

St Ignatius

Re: Is the Sun 93,000,000 mi away? Nope.

Meg

Re: Is the Sun 93,000,000 mi away? Nope.

St Ignatius

Re: Is the Sun 93,000,000 mi away? Nope.

St Ignatius

Re: Is the Sun 93,000,000 mi away? Nope.

Meg

Re: Is the Sun 93,000,000 mi away? Nope.

St Ignatius

Re: Is the Sun 93,000,000 mi away? Nope.

Meg

Re: Is the Sun 93,000,000 mi away? Nope.

St Ignatius

Re: Is the Sun 93,000,000 mi away? Nope.

St Ignatius

Re: Is the Sun 93,000,000 mi away? Nope.

Meg

Re: Is the Sun 93,000,000 mi away? Nope.

St Ignatius

Re: Is the Sun 93,000,000 mi away? Nope.

Neil Obstat

Re: Is the Sun 93,000,000 mi away? Nope.

Neil Obstat

Re: Is the Sun 93,000,000 mi away? Nope.

Neil Obstat

Re: Is the Sun 93,000,000 mi away? Nope.