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Poll

Which of These 2 Poll Options Would You Choose if Getting the Answer Wrong Meant Going to Hell?

The Earth is Flat.
4 (25%)
The Earth is a Globe.
12 (75%)

Total Members Voted: 11

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Author Topic: If Getting the Answer Wrong Meant Going to Hell......?  (Read 5250 times)

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Offline DZ PLEASE

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Re: If Getting the Answer Wrong Meant Going to Hell......?
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2017, 10:12:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: St Ignatius on October 15, 2017, 09:56:58 AM
    DZ
    For those who are undecided...

    Here's your sign...


      In the practical order, I've staked my life on the world being "globey" many times, have tons of evidence that it is a globe, done extensive "surveying" and nav based on a "globe"...

    ...but I'll put it this way, and for just one example, if space can be curved, then even a globe can be flat.

      Remember that the principle of non/con isn't that a thing can't both be and not be, though many either have always misunderstood it such, or have gotten twisted along the way.

     There is similar in regards to heliocentrism, for example what is meant by "center"?

    Center mass?
      What is the mass of the universe?
    Center volume?
      What's outside the "boundary" then?
      Just how big is the universe? It can't be infinite, but...
      Wouldn't that "outside", the "terminus" still be something, and so part of the universe, just of a different order?

      How do you avoid the whole metaphysical boondoggle of "outside" the universe to begin with? What does that mean, if it even can mean anything?

     'member Job/Iyov/Iob?

     what if, either distinct from or in addition to, "center/central" is a matter of time/ history?

     We do know that space/time had a beginning, and so at least can end; this is a center that we have the greatest hope of actually putting a round through.

     See?
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    Offline St Ignatius

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    Re: If Getting the Answer Wrong Meant Going to Hell......?
    « Reply #16 on: October 15, 2017, 10:50:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: DZ PLEASE on October 15, 2017, 10:12:46 AM
     In the practical order, I've staked my life on the world being "globey" many times, have tons of evidence that it is a globe, done extensive "surveying" and nav based on a "globe"...

    Likewise, perhaps not as “extensive” as yourself...

    Quote
    ...but I'll put it this way, and for just one example, if space can be curved, then even a globe can be flat. 

    That's a possibility.     

    Quote
    Remember that the principle of non/con isn't that a thing can't both be and not be, though many either have always misunderstood it such, or have gotten twisted along the way.

    Correct, my post was merely a jest.
     
    Quote
    There is similar in regards to heliocentrism, for example what is meant by "center"? Center mass? 
      What is the mass of the universe? 
    Center volume? 
      What's outside the "boundary" then? 
      Just how big is the universe? It can't be infinite, but...
      Wouldn't that "outside", the "terminus" still besomething, and so part of the universe, just of a different order? 
      How do you avoid the whole metaphysical boondoggle of "outside" the universe to begin with? What does thatmean, if it even can mean anything?
     'member Job/Iyov/Iob?
     what if, either distinct from or in addition to, "center/central" is a matter of time/ history?
     We do know that space/time had a beginning, and so at least can end; this is a center that we have the greatest hope of actually putting a round through. 

    I think Matthew's analogy sums it up well, I wouldn't expect a field mouse on my land to have a full grasp and understanding of the layout of the state of Texas either! So why would God expect us to "figure out" the fundamental nature of the earth and universe? That is a pretty good and fair comparison, too.

    Quote
     See?

    Yes, I do. Thank you sir…
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: If Getting the Answer Wrong Meant Going to Hell......?
    « Reply #17 on: October 15, 2017, 11:11:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: St Ignatius on October 15, 2017, 10:50:13 AM
    Likewise, perhaps not as “extensive” as yourself...

    That's a possibility.    

    Correct, my post was merely a jest.
     
    I think Matthew's analogy sums it up well, I wouldn't expect a field mouse on my land to have a full grasp and understanding of the layout of the state of Texas either! So why would God expect us to "figure out" the fundamental nature of the earth and universe? That is a pretty good and fair comparison, too.

    Yes, I do. Thank you sir…
    I hear you man, and I get that you're joking it's just an opportunity to clarify a few things.

      Every FEist that I've knowingly dealt with as such make many false assumptions and fail to make distinctions such as that between rejecting something such as flat-earth for no good cause, not having cause to seriously consider it, esp. as they present it in the first place and, for example, my laughing in disbelief at a clown who's informed me my dog "Sparky" ain't playin' dead, he's just plain dead.

    "HONK HONK!!" Ain't that a pie in the face?

    The message and the messenger, when it comes to their pet "dogma", usually aren't really distinct emotionally speaking, as much as they harp otherwise.

     "Love me, love my dog."

    You reinforce another point that I don't think they really appreciate, in spite of all the theoretical examples offered; abstractions have concrete consequences.
     
    Thank you back sir yourself.

    I wish that we had a resident bubble-head on CI, esp. one that's navved and/or piloted.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: If Getting the Answer Wrong Meant Going to Hell......?
    « Reply #18 on: October 15, 2017, 12:02:51 PM »
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    • We have lots of people here who live in a bubble, if that counts...
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: If Getting the Answer Wrong Meant Going to Hell......?
    « Reply #19 on: October 15, 2017, 12:07:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on October 15, 2017, 12:02:51 PM
    We have lots of people here who live in a bubble, if that counts...
    We all do, more or less and one way or another, such as people who are needlessly obscure/high context with terms like "bubble-head".

    I should have said "submariner" or something equally clear.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: If Getting the Answer Wrong Meant Going to Hell......?
    « Reply #20 on: October 15, 2017, 12:15:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on October 15, 2017, 08:22:10 AM
    What if this inaccessible mystery were arbitrarily a Divinely Revealed Truth -- oh, but it wasn't in your Baltimore Catechism either, so you weren't taught it with the rest of your Catholicism or anything...

    Stupid!

    Yes, there are things COMPLETELY above our limited, human comprehension (e.g., the Trinity), not just difficult to grasp but actually impossible for us. But they are relevant to the Catholic Faith, God, and our salvation. AND the Catholic Church makes sure that we know all of those things, if we submit to Her authority and be baptized.

    You might as well muse, "What if buying an Apple product were breaking a secret 11th Commandment, which also happened to be grave matter?"

    Dude, what are you on? You really should cut back, whatever it is you're fumigating your brain with.

    I agree that the poll is flawed, though I hadn't really thought about it. We can't really know for sure what the shape of the earth is. Though is should be mentioned that most Catholics did believe that the earth was flat until about the 1500's, or thereabouts. So it's not like we shouldn't speculate on the shape of the earth.

    I DO NOT believe that we have to accept the earth as being flat in order to attain salvation. But.....and this is something that you didn't address Matthew....the globe earth model has been used as a justification for moving away from a Catholic view of how the universe was created, and as such, society has moved away from it as well.

    The globe earth model (of which heliocentrism has been a part, at least for the general public) has been used to promote the secular humanist agenda, though that agenda would still likely happen even without the globe/heliocentric model. So maybe it's not such as big deal. 

    I think that there have been too many threads about the flat earth, which has really upset some here. However, some here have accused flat earthers of being dishonest, and as such have treated them as pariahs, and as if they are the scuм of the earth. It's the same basic attitude of how the Progressives treat the Traditionalists on, say, the Catholic answers forum, and other anti-traditionalist venues.

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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: If Getting the Answer Wrong Meant Going to Hell......?
    « Reply #21 on: October 15, 2017, 01:43:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: Truth is Eternal on October 15, 2017, 07:47:17 AM
    Wouldn't it be awesome if globe earthers were held accountable for their wrong answer. :farmer:
    I find it disturbing that a Catholic would relish the damnation of others, especially for something like not knowing the right shape of the earth.
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: If Getting the Answer Wrong Meant Going to Hell......?
    « Reply #22 on: October 15, 2017, 01:48:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: TKGS on October 15, 2017, 01:43:54 PM
    I find it disturbing that a Catholic would relish the damnation of others, especially for something like not knowing the right shape of the earth.
    I'm not sure that's a safe assumption, but it certainly is an understandable one.

    I though the same thing, but the standard sketchy language leaves just enough of that "handy" ambiguity to leave an out, at least as far as we "non-accountants" are concerned.

    Coram deo however, is another matter entirely and a somewhat ironic one to boot.
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    Offline Tradplorable

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    Re: If Getting the Answer Wrong Meant Going to Hell......?
    « Reply #23 on: October 15, 2017, 01:56:40 PM »
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    • If the nature of God's Creation is somehow beyond our scope (your mouse/Texas analogy) then why did God bother to mention it in Genesis, and furthermore, why did the devil make the globe deception in the first place?
    .
    .
    The devil only creates lies that he knows will drag unsuspecting souls to hell. This may fall into that very category.
    .
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: If Getting the Answer Wrong Meant Going to Hell......?
    « Reply #24 on: October 15, 2017, 02:02:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: Tradplorable on October 15, 2017, 01:56:40 PM
    If the nature of God's Creation is somehow beyond our scope (your mouse/Texas analogy) then why did God bother to mention it in Genesis,

    >> Just because  we can't know all, doesn't meant that we can't know at all.

    >> Have you "spoken" with Job yet? May wish to read of Solomon as well if you will.

    and furthermore, why did the devil make the globe deception in the first place?
    .
    >> See what you did there? I hope not.
    .
    The devil only creates lies that he knows will drag unsuspecting souls to hell.

    >> Is your Devil omniscient?

    This may fall into that very category.
    .
    >> What's with kid gloves now man? Why so sheepish?
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    Offline kiwiboy

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    Re: If Getting the Answer Wrong Meant Going to Hell......?
    « Reply #25 on: October 15, 2017, 03:07:48 PM »
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    • I have said it already a few times, but the emphasis of the flatness of the earth is a new one. It is like trying to talk about whether meteors being from the dome is part of the faith.

    All the ancients understood the firmament to be solid http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06079b.htm

    This ends all discussion about there being planets stars etc. outside orbiting us as the geo-centrists think.

    but what destroys all geocentrist talk is the non curvature of the earth

    http://flatearthtrads.forumga.net/f9-flat-earth-proofs
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: If Getting the Answer Wrong Meant Going to Hell......?
    « Reply #26 on: October 15, 2017, 03:09:55 PM »
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    • See? Typical.

    So, the Earth is "flat", but it's not central today.

    Wait, it's not flat, or maybe it's flat, all the ancient's said this, then they said that.

    "All"

    Can't keep their story straight, which is symptomatic of, among other things, lying.

    That sort of nonsense meets the definitions of incoherent an inconsistent.

    Scientologists and Mormons have a better pitch.
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    Offline Tradplorable

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    Re: If Getting the Answer Wrong Meant Going to Hell......?
    « Reply #27 on: October 15, 2017, 03:50:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: tornpage on October 15, 2017, 02:23:08 PM


    The FE crowd struck out, and keeps striking out, when this simple fastball is thrown: has the Church given us FE as being part of the necessary truth revealed by God? They strike out because the answer is, "no."


    Bollocks.
    .
    I do not intend to go to my Judgment and tell Him what parts of the Bible *I thought* He meant to be important and *necessary*.
    .
    .
    I will consider it ALL to be important, just to be on the safe side.
    .
    It is all necessary truth.
    .
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: If Getting the Answer Wrong Meant Going to Hell......?
    « Reply #28 on: October 15, 2017, 04:36:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: Tradplorable on October 15, 2017, 03:50:17 PM
    Bollocks.
    .
    I do not intend to go to my Judgment and tell Him what parts of the Bible *I thought* He meant to be important and *necessary*.
    .
    .
    I will consider it ALL to be important, just to be on the safe side.
    .
    It is all necessary truth.
    .

    I agree. ALL of Sacred Scripture is important, even if it goes against the secular norms of the day. We are told by society that the earth is a globe, and that we cannot refer to Scripture and say that is isn't a globe, and most traditional Catholics go along with this nonsense.

    God describes the firmament quite well, and who are we to discount it and say that it doesn't matter what God really meant in Genesis, because it's not incuмbent on our salvation. God created the earth and everything we see in the natural world, and He left us a written account of it in Genesis. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Truth is Eternal

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    Re: If Getting the Answer Wrong Meant Going to Hell......?
    « Reply #29 on: October 15, 2017, 06:08:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: TKGS on October 15, 2017, 01:43:54 PM
    I find it disturbing that a Catholic would relish the damnation of others, especially for something like not knowing the right shape of the earth.
    This is just a hypothetical question. I am not saying, nor am I implying that someone is going to Hell if they believe wrong  as far as what shape of the earth is.
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