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Author Topic: How Sunrise and Sunset Work on Flat Earth  (Read 23217 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Offline Tradman

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Re: How Sunrise and Sunset Work on Flat Earth
« Reply #71 on: July 17, 2023, 07:44:33 PM »
If your meaning by the bolded text above is that you saw more detail in the Nikon P900 w/telephoto lens used alone than the 10" telescope used alone, than something is gravely wrong here with the acquisition or the interpretation of the images. The 10" telescope will always give more detail and brightness due to the larger aperture. If the telephoto lens + camera alone seemed to give a bigger image or more detail, what you are seeing in the camera is artificial and caused by the camera itself rather than a feature of the star or other object in question. It is most likely due to an inability of the telephoto lens (which is designed for land objects, not the sky) to focus on the star an resolve its light to a point. Or, poor optical quality of the camera is scattering the light and distorting it. If your friend's 10" telescope produced images exactly like the ones in the youtube video, it is out of focus and/or has some serious optical problems.

To be clear I'm not calling you a liar here or in the previous post, but I do think you are unfortunately mis-using your equipment (or using the wrong equipment for the job) and are misinterpreting the results you are getting. De-focused stars will always look like those boiling shapes, and each defocused star may indeed look different from the other. The problem is, de-focused boiling star shapes don't tell you much about the object in question other than the quality of the optics you are using. It would be like defocusing a pair of binoculars looking at a cardinal bird until all you see is a red blob; it doesn't tell you much about the characteristics of the object, other than the fact it is red. Look up "star testing" of telescopes and the "airy disc".

In-focus, when testing the optics, the star should look like a point. as you de-focus on either side, it will expand to a symmetrical disc with rings within it. Asymmetry or irregularity (as in the video) means problems with optical quality, or thermal/atmospheric disturbances 
( https://www.skyatnightmagazine.com/advice/how-to-star-test-a-telescope/ )

I've used quite a few digital cameras, binoculars, and telescopes over the years, and could easily replicate the boiling blobs you are seeing. The problem is that once again in order to replicate this, you need to de-focus the image, which defeats the whole purpose of looking at the object in the first place, unless you are testing optical quality.  Take a pair of binoculars, look at a star, focus it to a point, and then de-focus it a little and that will approximate the boiling blobs you are seeing in your camera or in that youtube video. And yes, a lot of folks out there sadly don't know how to use their equipment; they mean well, but are mistaken. There are also a lot of folks who do know how to use their equipment who report the stars as pinpoints. And these aren't NASA "elites", but folks who chat on public forums just like this one.
We can disagree about the use of equipment, but the fact that the stars are provably not as described by NASA, there is a lot more work to do to get to the bottom of what is going on above us.  I don't agree that the star should look like a point, unless I'm going by information provided by people I don't trust and ignoring what I found.  The fact that you can replicate the stars as I've seen is maybe a sign you should ditch the preconceived ideas and look at your results independently.  As far as the ordinary people, I've found they too can be influenced by NASA and come to conclusions that don't make sense.  


Offline Tradman

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Re: How Sunrise and Sunset Work on Flat Earth
« Reply #72 on: July 17, 2023, 07:46:09 PM »
An interesting tangent: the size of lenses required to have the same zoom capability as the p900, but on large sensor cameras like the 6D https://pixelpluck.com/battle-of-biggest-zoom-lenses-ever/


I'm not saying that NASA is right, but there is too much evidence in favor of the possibility that NASA is right, not their artistically enhanced images, but real observations that is easily backed by math that at least shows what they say is possible, if not certainly true.

How small is light? If even 1 photon makes it to your camera all night long, that photon had to come from somewhere. How do you rule out it didn't come from a star (assuming we are trying to image stars at night)? Consider how big NASA says the sun is. If stars are that big, and considering how small photons are and how bright the sun is, that is an enormous number of photons released per millisecond of which we only need a grain of sand worth to see. it is very easy for those few rare photons that just happened to be aimed right at earth to reach us in enough quantity to see. It is also not hard to understand how very distant galaxies can be visible when a camera is left to collect light from them over several days at high sensitivity. with a billion stars the size of the sun or larger in one galaxy, as big and spread out as NASA says galaxies are, surely enough photons perfectly aimed at earth will accuмulate over several days to make the image of a faint little galaxy.

Just don't rule it out. You don't have to trust NASA, but I don't see enough evidence to rule it out. If you poke a stick into water, it looks bent, so it is bent right? Wrong.
Just wondering...do you think man went to the moon?

Offline Tradman

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Re: How Sunrise and Sunset Work on Flat Earth
« Reply #73 on: July 17, 2023, 07:48:34 PM »
Is it even possible that you just might not understand the results of your experiment? A good scientist who seeks the truth will try his experiment to prove that it means what he thinks it means. Ideally, you would try taking videos with different cameras with the same zoom capability. Also you would determine a way to check the accuracy of the focus of each camera, because they do often make mistakes, even big mistakes when it comes to focus. Also, you would rule out the causes of any similarities and differences in the way the star looks. Which lens has the dirt that causes certain phenomenon, or is it on the sensor? Is the image really what the camera sees, or is the sensor data processor causing significant alterations to make the best of poor quality optics and high ISO all while keeping the file size small?

Also, I have had my YT account deleted by YT, and they have deleted several other's over the years for apparently no reason. It must have been some robot they used to clean and regulate the system, and it must have had false triggers for termination. My content was nothing bad, the same with many others, nothing controversial. Maybe it was because YT wanted ads on everyone's videos, but many people resisted.
It's always possible I don't understand the results, but with others who produce the same results, the onus is on NASA and they aren't ever going to fess up if they're lying.  Now what?  Pretend I didn't see what I've seen?  

Re: How Sunrise and Sunset Work on Flat Earth
« Reply #74 on: July 17, 2023, 08:33:37 PM »
We can disagree about the use of equipment, but the fact that the stars are provably not as described by NASA, there is a lot more work to do to get to the bottom of what is going on above us.  I don't agree that the star should look like a point, unless I'm going by information provided by people I don't trust and ignoring what I found. 

I'd agree that there is a lot more work to do to understand what we see in the night sky. However, this tangent on equipment has nothing to do with people or opinions; it is a simple fact of optics that anyone can see given that they have access to a high-quality telescope that is used and maintained properly.

The question of (1) whether stars are different from what NASA says they are and (2) whether they look like "points" (or have a symmetrical airy disc structure instead of the bloated irregular mass in that video: https://www.skyatnightmagazine.com/advice/how-to-star-test-a-telescope/) are in fact two different and independent questions. If the only person you can trust is yourself, as St. Giles said, then you need to get several telescopes, cameras, etc. to demonstrate on your own that those bloated "boiling" irregular masses aren't just due to equipment problems. You need to establish if the camera can really focus on stars, and if so where the exact focus point is. As St. Giles said, you need to demonstrate that those bloated shapes aren't due to other variables such as the camera sensor, ISO values, over-magnification etc. Once again, cameras are really not good by themselves to study the night sky; there's too much electronics and technology in general that affects the images and over-processes them. And the aperture is execrable compared to a telescope. Your best bet is to look at stars with a telescope or photograph stars through the telescope with the camera. If you have an amateur astronomy club near you, see if you can rent/borrow some of their telescopes or go to one of their meetings. Regardless of agreement or non-agreement with their specific cosmology beliefs, that will give you access to better equipment to use to explore this if you want.


The fact that you can replicate the stars as I've seen is maybe a sign you should ditch the preconceived ideas and look at your results independently. 

This has nothing to do with preconceived cosmology ideas on my end; I'm open to listening to various interpretations of what stars are, what they are made of, how big they are, how far away etc. However, independent of all of those bloated star videos (as well as mainstream scientists), I have myself seen stars resolve to points of light or organized airy discs in good telescopes. And that is pretty much what anyone else with experience involving telescopes, amateur or professional, will tell you. With regard to my replication of the bloated stars, re-read the text below from my previous post you are referencing:

I've used quite a few digital cameras, binoculars, and telescopes over the years, and could easily replicate the boiling blobs you are seeing. The problem is that once again in order to replicate this, you need to de-focus the image, which defeats the whole purpose of looking at the object in the first place, unless you are testing optical quality. 

The only way what you are seeing can be replicated is basically if the instrument is misused; i.e., it is purposely thrown out of focus or "de-focused". Would you call a family portrait picture that is grossly out of focus so everyone looks like blobs of color a good representation of the subject (or an instrument being used properly)? The fact that I can replicate your results by purposefully "misusing" an instrument actually is a warning that the bloated and boiling star images are NOT accurate representations of their true structure. You're basically just looking at the peculiarities of your own optics.

At any rate, good luck with your experiments.