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Author Topic: How Sunrise and Sunset Work on Flat Earth  (Read 12293 times)

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Offline God and Land

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Re: How Sunrise and Sunset Work on Flat Earth
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2023, 10:25:19 AM »
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    • May have already been asked and answered but any flat earthers here able to share what they saw while in an airplane? Were you able to see the entire surface of the earth? If not, why?

    Also, why do projectiles travel in an arc if earth is flat? Wouldn't it travel in a angle?
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    Offline Tradman

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    Re: How Sunrise and Sunset Work on Flat Earth
    « Reply #16 on: July 15, 2023, 10:35:40 AM »
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    • Quote from: God and Land on July 15, 2023, 10:25:19 AM
    May have already been asked and answered but any flat earthers here able to share what they saw while in an airplane? Were you able to see the entire surface of the earth? If not, why?

    Also, why do projectiles travel in an arc if earth is flat? Wouldn't it travel in a angle?

    There are a series of videos online that show you can see hundreds of miles from a plane using infrared cameras.  There are a couple reasons you can't see that far with the naked eye, which includes thinks like refraction, moisture, human eye limitations, and other factors that the infrared can overcome. 

    Infra red camera




    Photogrammetry



    Refraction Gravity vector







    Projectiles like those from a railgun never travel in an arc, they travel precision level or for hundreds of miles.


    https://www.bitchute.com/video/Icn4mFnEObAY/
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: How Sunrise and Sunset Work on Flat Earth
    « Reply #17 on: July 15, 2023, 10:52:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: God and Land on July 15, 2023, 10:25:19 AM
    May have already been asked and answered but any flat earthers here able to share what they saw while in an airplane? Were you able to see the entire surface of the earth? If not, why?

    Also, why do projectiles travel in an arc if earth is flat? Wouldn't it travel in a angle?

    Even Dr. Sungenis rejects the glober argument that you should be able to see forever.  We have something called an atmosphere that has matter in it, gases, water, etc. ... not to mention that after a while the angular resolution at huge distances makes things impossible to see, as our optics are only so good.
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    Offline alaric

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    Re: How Sunrise and Sunset Work on Flat Earth
    « Reply #18 on: July 15, 2023, 11:32:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: Tradman on July 15, 2023, 08:24:27 AM
    https://www.bitchute.com/video/B4gnqkq416CW/

    Direct answers to your questions plus a history of the Catholic Church protecting the flat earth. 
    thanks .check it out later.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: How Sunrise and Sunset Work on Flat Earth
    « Reply #19 on: July 15, 2023, 12:11:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on July 15, 2023, 09:16:30 AM
    Because you're consistent you also reject and don't investigate anything atheists and freemasons say about creation correct? You dismiss everything NASA and other devilish institutions say right?
    When I look at non-Catholic sources, I take their biases into account and read with suspicion.  This particular video contained clear untruths.  I stopped watching after it claimed that St. Thomas believed in flat earth, attempting to support this lie with distorted out of context quotes. Nobody familiar with his body of work could honestly say such a thing.  He clearly and unmistakably taught globe earth. 
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: How Sunrise and Sunset Work on Flat Earth
    « Reply #20 on: July 15, 2023, 12:33:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on July 15, 2023, 12:11:45 PM
    I stopped watching after it claimed that St. Thomas believed in flat earth, attempting to support this lie with distorted out of context quotes.

    Except that the video never claimed that, just citing what St. Thomas believed in a solid firmament with waters above it, and said that this was consistent with the FE cosmology ... i.e. flies in the face of NASA cosmology of the ball floating around in space.  You appear to be very educated, but I often see a lot of sloppy thinking and poor logic, where you conflate things.  You often cite St. Thomas as your authority for ball earth, but then you don't accept what he holds regarding the firmament.

    It would be interesting to map out what St. Thomas' cosmology might look like give that he did believe that the earth was spherical, and yet that there was a solid firmament above it.  I'm guessing that in his view the firmament surrounded the entire earth, but that within the firmament you had the spherical earth.  He also wrote about how this entire thing earth + firmament was suspended in the middle of the waters.

    I have a feeling that some of these thinkers felt that the earth was spherical but then denied that there was solid land down there or at the very least that there were inhabitants on the underside of the earth.

    See, here's the thing.  Church Fathers and Medieval thinkers did not have a concept of gravity.  So what, then, would cause people to stick to the bottom of a ball?  In fact, one of the early cosmological debates among the waters was how the earth, firmament, i.e. the world could be suspended in the waters without "sinking" to the "bottom".  That's why some held the world was hemispherical in shape, because the land would sink to the bottom of the water-filled cosmos, being heavier than water.  St. Augustine thought it was tenable since even if the world were at the bottom-center of the universe, that would still be considered the center (note his assumption that the world must be at the center of the universe).  Others posited that there was some rotation in the universe's water that kept the earth suspended.  But for them up was up and down was down, so they didn't have some notion of gravity that would cause people to stick to the bottom of a ball.
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    Offline Tradman

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    Re: How Sunrise and Sunset Work on Flat Earth
    « Reply #21 on: July 15, 2023, 12:39:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on July 15, 2023, 12:11:45 PM
    When I look at non-Catholic sources, I take their biases into account and read with suspicion.  This particular video contained clear untruths.  I stopped watching after it claimed that St. Thomas believed in flat earth, attempting to support this lie with distorted out of context quotes. Nobody familiar with his body of work could honestly say such a thing.  He clearly and unmistakably taught globe earth.

    Please provide unmistakable proof that St. Thomas Aquinas believed earth is a globe.

    Do you have an explanation for the firmament/dome Thomas believed in and how it fit over a globe?  Can you also explain where the waters above the firmament can be found on a globe?  

    The guy in the video made an assumption based on Aquinas' belief in the firmament as well as his respect for the flat earth Fathers of the Church that went before him. In fact, that this Protestant sourced from the Fathers of the Church because he recognized they largely believed the same as each other is quite surprising--good eye from a Prot.    
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    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: How Sunrise and Sunset Work on Flat Earth
    « Reply #22 on: July 15, 2023, 12:46:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Tradman on July 15, 2023, 12:39:02 PM

    Please provide unmistakable proof that St. Thomas Aquinas believed earth is a globe.

    Do you have an explanation for the firmament/dome Thomas believed in and how it fit over a globe?  Can you also explain where the waters above the firmament can be found on a globe? 

    The guy in the video made an assumption based on Aquinas' belief in the firmament as well as his respect for the flat earth Fathers of the Church that went before him. In fact, that this Protestant sourced from the Fathers of the Church because he recognized they largely believed the same as each other is quite surprising--good eye from a Prot.   
    Although, if I remember correctly, the quote from St. Thomas isn't 100% clear proof that he believed in a globe I'm inclined to believe it is much, much more probable that he did. I don't remember the exact quote but it's like he assumes the globe was proven in a conditional statement I think.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: How Sunrise and Sunset Work on Flat Earth
    « Reply #23 on: July 15, 2023, 12:47:00 PM »
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    • I think that this debate we're having is illustrates a false dichotomy that's long been in play out there, that either the world is flat or else the world is NASA's ball floating through space.  There seems to be an in-between type of cosmology, where the surface of the earth would be curved (to some extent).  So, if you take this picture here:



    Just in your mind continue drawing the firmament until it makes a circle (aka sphere in 3D) around the entire earth and waters.  Now imagine rounding out the "earth" part of the picture until it looks more spherical.  St. Hildegard, for instance, despite the fact that cassini and Sungenis wrongly cite her as backing NASA's space ball earth, clearly stated that the bottom part was uninhabitable due to the Greet Deep and Sheol being down there.  So that would be like the above cosmology except extending the firmament all the way around the entire picture and then rounding the earth until it's more like a sphere.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: How Sunrise and Sunset Work on Flat Earth
    « Reply #24 on: July 15, 2023, 12:51:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on July 15, 2023, 12:46:50 PM
    Although, if I remember correctly, the quote from St. Thomas isn't 100% clear proof that he believed in a globe I'm inclined to believe it is much, much more probable that he did. I don't remember the exact quote but it's like he assumes the globe was proven in a conditional statement I think.

    He basically cited Aristotle's proofs, including the old ship sailing over the edge, aka disappearing from the bottom up.  But he did also believe in a solid firmament that kept waters off the earth.  So it's somewhere in between, as I posted above.  It's neither NASA's space ball, nor is it necessarily the typical FE model, but something in between.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: How Sunrise and Sunset Work on Flat Earth
    « Reply #25 on: July 15, 2023, 01:11:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on July 15, 2023, 12:46:50 PM
    Although, if I remember correctly, the quote from St. Thomas isn't 100% clear proof that he believed in a globe I'm inclined to believe it is much, much more probable that he did. I don't remember the exact quote but it's like he assumes the globe was proven in a conditional statement I think.

    You seem to be thinking of his often cited reference to globe earth in the Summa:

    Sciences are differentiated according to the various means through which knowledge is obtained. For the astronomer and the physicist both may prove the same conclusion: that the earth, for instance, is round: the astronomer by means of mathematics (i.e. abstracting from matter), but the physicist by means of matter itself. 

    In the Latin it is clear that it is not a conditional because he uses indicative rather than subjunctive mood for the verb.  It is a statement that the earth is round.

    I think, however, that clearer (since it does not require knowledge of Latin) evidence of St. Thomas's belief in globe earth is found in his commentary on Aristotle's De Caelo:

    Book II Lecture 27 
    532. Having determined the truth about the earth's place and about its motion or rest, the Philosopher here determines the truth about its shape.  First he proves that the earth is spherical with natural reasons taken on the part of motion; Secondly, with mathematical and astronomical reasons based on sense observations.

    St.Thomas says that the truth about the shape of the earth is that it is spherical.  


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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: How Sunrise and Sunset Work on Flat Earth
    « Reply #26 on: July 15, 2023, 01:24:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 15, 2023, 12:33:41 PM
    Except that the video never claimed that, just citing what St. Thomas believed in a solid firmament with waters above it, and said that this was consistent with the FE cosmology ... i.e. flies in the face of NASA cosmology of the ball floating around in space.  You appear to be very educated, but I often see a lot of sloppy thinking and poor logic, where you conflate things.  You often cite St. Thomas as your authority for ball earth, but then you don't accept what he holds regarding the firmament.

    The video claimed that they were giving clear proof that medieval thinkers believed in flat earth. I am not willing to watch it again to quote the exact words.

    I often cite St. Thomas to show that it is not likely to be contrary to Catholic teaching to believe in globe earth or to show how common the belief was in Catholic history.  I do not cite St. Thomas as an authority on science.  I rarely discuss the science aspects of this at all.  I am interested in the theology and history aspects. 
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    Offline Tradman

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    Re: How Sunrise and Sunset Work on Flat Earth
    « Reply #27 on: July 15, 2023, 01:36:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on July 15, 2023, 12:46:50 PM
    Although, if I remember correctly, the quote from St. Thomas isn't 100% clear proof that he believed in a globe I'm inclined to believe it is much, much more probable that he did. I don't remember the exact quote but it's like he assumes the globe was proven in a conditional statement I think.

    Yea, Thomas isn't entirely forthcoming about his final decision, although he does appear to support the Fathers who did not think earth was a globe because of his appreciation for the firmament. As I remember, in his big digression about Aristotle's opinion, Thomas seems to come to the conclusion that if the earth is moving, it's probably a globe, but that if it's stationary, it has to be flat.  In fact, there is a traditional flat earth priest I know who says that, in his personal opinion, that's the proof Thomas didn't believe earth is a globe.  
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    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: How Sunrise and Sunset Work on Flat Earth
    « Reply #28 on: July 15, 2023, 01:40:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: Tradman on July 15, 2023, 01:36:34 PM

    Yea, Thomas isn't entirely forthcoming about his final decision, although he does appear to support the Fathers who did not think earth was a globe because of his appreciation for the firmament. As I remember, in his big digression about Aristotle's opinion, Thomas seems to come to the conclusion that if the earth is moving, it's probably a globe, but that if it's stationary, it has to be flat.  In fact, there is a traditional flat earth priest I know who says that, in his personal opinion, that's the proof Thomas didn't believe earth is a globe. 
    I guess I'll take a look again then. 
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    Offline Tradman

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    Re: How Sunrise and Sunset Work on Flat Earth
    « Reply #29 on: July 15, 2023, 01:45:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on July 15, 2023, 01:40:09 PM
    I guess I'll take a look again then.
    Great, because many of us would be interested to know what you find.  It's one reason why the subject is so important.  More people doing more research to find the truth.  
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