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Author Topic: How does Neil Obstat reconcile geocentrism with modern science?  (Read 2846 times)

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Offline Neil Obstat

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Re: How does Neil Obstat reconcile geocentrism with modern science?
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2018, 11:12:04 PM »
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  • It's not just either/or, it's both/and. Scripture reveals to us truths on many levels.  Stars are likened to priests and consecrated people, but stars are also physical things. If Scripture says a star come down to show the place where baby Jesus lay, you can be sure a star came down and did just that. No doubt there are analogies as well. Same with stars falling from the sky.  If people reduce everything to the allegorical and skip the literal, what would scripture have to offer except some cryptic message strictly for the learned and subject to interpretation contrary to the literal? God works with allegory and types not to confuse but to support the literal and to clarify.
    .
    We don't have to ignore the literal meaning of Scripture to appreciate its allegorical meaning. 
    .
    The Apocalypse of St. John is written in a manner that is not meant to be literally understood as much as it is allegorical. Perhaps you're not familiar with apocalyptic prophesy. That has something to do with us calling this the Book of the Apocalypse. It says the dragon's tail drew the third part of the stars from heaven and cast them to the earth. Do you suppose that means there is a great red dragon flying around up there, having seven heads, and ten horns: and on his head seven diadems with a magnet for a tail, drawing stars around like iron marbles? It SAYS "drew" them and "cast them to the earth" you know. Or maybe it means that the dragon's tail drew one-third of EACH star and cast THAT to the earth.
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    Offline WholeFoodsTrad

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    Re: How does Neil Obstat reconcile geocentrism with modern science?
    « Reply #31 on: March 17, 2018, 03:24:16 PM »
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  • The Futurist View

    "The fourth view is the futurist view. This view teaches that the events of the Olivet Discourse and Revelation chapters 4-22 will occur in the future. Futurist divide the book of Revelation into three sections as indicated in 1:19: “what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.” Chapter 1 describes the past (“what you have seen”), chapters 2-3 describe the present (“what is now”), and the rest of the book describes future events (“what will take place later”).

    Futurists apply a literal approach to interpreting Revelation. Chapters 4-19 refer to a period known as the seven-year tribulation (Dan. 9:27). During this time, God’s judgments are actually poured out upon mankind as they are revealed in the seals, trumpets, and bowls. Chapter 13 describes a literal future world empire headed by a political and religious leader represented by the two beasts. Chapter 17 pictures a harlot who represents the church in apostasy. Chapter 19 refers to Christ’s second coming and the battle of Armageddon followed by a literal thousand-year rule of Christ upon the earth in chapter 20. Chapters 21-22 are events that follow the millennium: the creation of a new heaven and a new earth and the arrival of the heavenly city upon the earth.

    Futurists argue that a consistently literal or plain interpretation is to be applied in understanding the book of Revelation. Literal interpretation of the Bible means to explain the original sense, or meaning, of the Bible according to the normal customary usage of its language. This means applying the rules of grammar, staying consistent with the historical framework, and the context of the writing. Literal interpretation does not discount figurative or symbolic language. Futurists teach that prophecies using symbolic language are also to be normally interpreted according to the laws of language. J. P. Lange stated,

    The literalist (so called) is not one who denies that figurative language, that symbols, are used in prophecy, nor does he deny that great spiritual truths are set forth therein; his position is, simply, that the prophecies are to be normally interpreted (i.e., according to the received laws of language) as any other utterances are interpreted – that which is manifestly figurative being so regarded.{17}

    Charles Ryrie also states,

    Symbols, figures of speech and types are all interpreted plainly in this method, and they are in no way contrary to literal interpretation. After all, the very existence of any meaning for a figure of speech depends on the reality of the literal meaning of the terms involved. Figures often make the meaning plainer, but it is the literal, normal, or plain meaning that they convey to the reader.{18}

    Futurists acknowledge the use of figures and symbols. When figurative language is used, one must look at the context to find the meaning. However, figurative language does not justify allegorical interpretation.

    Futurists contend that the literal interpretation of Revelation finds its roots in the ancient church fathers. Elements of this teaching, such as a future millennial kingdom, are found in the writings of Clement of Rome (AD 96), Justin Martyr (AD 100-165), Irenaeus (AD 115-202), Tertullian (AD 150-225) and others. Futurists hold that the church fathers taught a literal interpretation of Revelation until Origen (AD 185-254) introduced allegorical interpretation. This then became the popular form of interpretation when taught by Augustine (AD 354-430).{19} Literal interpretation of Revelation remained throughout the history of the church and rose again to prominence in the modern era."

    https://probe.org/four-views-of-revelation/
    "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."


    Offline happenby

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    Re: How does Neil Obstat reconcile geocentrism with modern science?
    « Reply #32 on: March 17, 2018, 05:07:54 PM »
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  • .
    We don't have to ignore the literal meaning of Scripture to appreciate its allegorical meaning.
    .
    The Apocalypse of St. John is written in a manner that is not meant to be literally understood as much as it is allegorical. Perhaps you're not familiar with apocalyptic prophesy. That has something to do with us calling this the Book of the Apocalypse. It says the dragon's tail drew the third part of the stars from heaven and cast them to the earth. Do you suppose that means there is a great red dragon flying around up there, having seven heads, and ten horns: and on his head seven diadems with a magnet for a tail, drawing stars around like iron marbles? It SAYS "drew" them and "cast them to the earth" you know. Or maybe it means that the dragon's tail drew one-third of EACH star and cast THAT to the earth.
    .
    Funny how people make things up as they go and think they know.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: How does Neil Obstat reconcile geocentrism with modern science?
    « Reply #33 on: March 17, 2018, 07:20:34 PM »
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  • Funny how people make things up as they go and think they know.
    .
    Don't tell me:  you have your own description of apocalyptic literature for everyone to see?
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline cassini

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    Re: How does Neil Obstat reconcile geocentrism with modern science?
    « Reply #34 on: March 18, 2018, 07:08:18 AM »
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  • Since Neil has said in the past that he's a geocentrist, I'd like to see him explain how he reconciles geocentrism with modern science, since modern science does not believe in geocentrism. Modern science is staunchly heliocentric.

    As a global geocentrist I should like to answer the above question. 'Modern science' has, since 1905 at least, admitted relativity. In other words it admits the universe could be geocentric or heliocentric.

    What people believe it is does not change the position of 'modern science.'

    Finally, just to show how NASA operates, here is an interesting letter:
    Royal Air Force College
    Cranwell, Lincolnshire, England.
     
    ‘Sir, ... One can of course believe anything one likes as long as the consequences of the belief are trivial. But when survival [and success] depends on that belief, then it matters that belief corresponds to manifest reality. We therefore teach navigators that the stars are fixed to the Celestial sphere, which is centred on a fixed Earth, and around which it rotates in accordance with laws clearly deducible from common-sense observation. The sun and moon move across the inner surface of this sphere, and hence perforce go around the Earth. This means that students of navigation must unlearn a lot of confused dogma they learned in school. Most of them find this remarkably easy, because dogma is as may be, but the real world is as we perceive it to be. If Andrew Hill will look in the Journal of Navigation he will find that the Earth-centred Universe is alive and well, whatever his readings of the Spectator may suggest.  Yours, Darcy Reddyhoff.’



    When it comes to working out eclipses etc., according to the Encyclopaedia Britannica, it is the geocentric reality mathematics that is used. But watch how they again play mind-games when admitting this:

     ‘For this purpose [making calculations] it is convenient first to consider the Earth as fixed and to suppose the observer looking out from its centre…’--- Encyclopaedia Britannica (Eclipse, p.869).  




    Offline aryzia

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    Re: How does Neil Obstat reconcile geocentrism with modern science?
    « Reply #35 on: March 19, 2018, 08:06:38 AM »
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  • Funny, the 'Church' seems to have embraced 'relativity' right about the same time.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: How does Neil Obstat reconcile geocentrism with modern science?
    « Reply #36 on: March 19, 2018, 10:03:58 AM »
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  • As a global geocentrist I should like to answer the above question. 'Modern science' has, since 1905 at least, admitted relativity. In other words it admits the universe could be geocentric or heliocentric.

    What people believe it is does not change the position of 'modern science.'

    Finally, just to show how NASA operates, here is an interesting letter:
    Royal Air Force College
    Cranwell, Lincolnshire, England.
     
    ‘Sir, ... One can of course believe anything one likes as long as the consequences of the belief are trivial. But when survival [and success] depends on that belief, then it matters that belief corresponds to manifest reality. We therefore teach navigators that the stars are fixed to the Celestial sphere, which is centred on a fixed Earth, and around which it rotates in accordance with laws clearly deducible from common-sense observation. The sun and moon move across the inner surface of this sphere, and hence perforce go around the Earth. This means that students of navigation must unlearn a lot of confused dogma they learned in school. Most of them find this remarkably easy, because dogma is as may be, but the real world is as we perceive it to be. If Andrew Hill will look in the Journal of Navigation he will find that the Earth-centred Universe is alive and well, whatever his readings of the Spectator may suggest.  Yours, Darcy Reddyhoff.’



    When it comes to working out eclipses etc., according to the Encyclopaedia Britannica, it is the geocentric reality mathematics that is used. But watch how they again play mind-games when admitting this:

    ‘For this purpose [making calculations] it is convenient first to consider the Earth as fixed and to suppose the observer looking out from its centre…’--- Encyclopaedia Britannica (Eclipse, p.869).  

    One obscure letter does not prove that modern science has admitted relativity. Does this letter really represent all of modern science everywhere? Please show scientific journals that say that everyone in the science field believes that the universe could be geocentric. And then you would have to show how this has trickled down to the average person. I don't know of anyone outside of this forum who believes in geocentrism (of course there is Robert Sungenis). The children are still taught heliocentrism in public and religious schools.  

    Evidently, the way in which you have reconciled geocentrism with modern science is to believe that modern science is open to the idea that the universe can be geocentric. Evidently, 'modern science' itself hasn't got the memo yet.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline happenby

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    Re: How does Neil Obstat reconcile geocentrism with modern science?
    « Reply #37 on: March 19, 2018, 04:19:33 PM »
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  • One obscure letter does not prove that modern science has admitted relativity. Does this letter really represent all of modern science everywhere? Please show scientific journals that say that everyone in the science field believes that the universe could be geocentric. And then you would have to show how this has trickled down to the average person. I don't know of anyone outside of this forum who believes in geocentrism (of course there is Robert Sungenis). The children are still taught heliocentrism in public and religious schools.  

    Evidently, the way in which you have reconciled geocentrism with modern science is to believe that modern science is open to the idea that the universe can be geocentric. Evidently, 'modern science' itself hasn't got the memo yet.
    Flat earth is the original geocentric model.  Globe geocentrism, the notion that the earth is a stationary globe is nonsense.


    Offline cassini

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    Re: How does Neil Obstat reconcile geocentrism with modern science?
    « Reply #38 on: March 19, 2018, 04:31:13 PM »
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  • One obscure letter does not prove that modern science has admitted relativity. Does this letter really represent all of modern science everywhere? Please show scientific journals that say that everyone in the science field believes that the universe could be geocentric. And then you would have to show how this has trickled down to the average person. I don't know of anyone outside of this forum who believes in geocentrism (of course there is Robert Sungenis). The children are still taught heliocentrism in public and religious schools.  

    Evidently, the way in which you have reconciled geocentrism with modern science is to believe that modern science is open to the idea that the universe can be geocentric. Evidently, 'modern science' itself hasn't got the memo yet.

    ‘Whether the Earth rotates once a day from west to east as Copernicus taught, or the heavens revolve once a day from east to west as his predecessors believed, the observable phenomena will be exactly the same. This shows a defect in Newtonian dynamics, since an empirical science ought not to contain a metaphysical assumption that cannot be proved or disproved by observation.’[1]



    [1] Bertrand Russell: quoted in D. D. Sciama’s The Unity of the Universe, p.18.



    https://physicsofcreation.wordpress.com/2016/08/18/relative-motion/

    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: How does Neil Obstat reconcile geocentrism with modern science?
    « Reply #39 on: March 22, 2018, 08:51:41 AM »
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  • ‘Whether the Earth rotates once a day from west to east as Copernicus taught, or the heavens revolve once a day from east to west as his predecessors believed, the observable phenomena will be exactly the same. This shows a defect in Newtonian dynamics, since an empirical science ought not to contain a metaphysical assumption that cannot be proved or disproved by observation.’[1]



    [1] Bertrand Russell: quoted in D. D. Sciama’s The Unity of the Universe, p.18.



    https://physicsofcreation.wordpress.com/2016/08/18/relative-motion/
    You just quoted Bertrand Russell,  well-known atheist & occultist, as proof of relative motion.
    There is no relative motion. 
    Earth does not rotate.
    You cannot contradict the Bible which says earth does NOT move.

    Offline aryzia

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    Re: How does Neil Obstat reconcile geocentrism with modern science?
    « Reply #40 on: March 23, 2018, 02:53:28 PM »
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  • You just quoted Bertrand Russell,  well-known atheist & occultist, as proof of relative motion.
    There is no relative motion.
    Earth does not rotate.
    You cannot contradict the Bible which says earth does NOT move.
    Globalist are forced to draw from pagan sources because the globe earth model sprang from the occult. They got nobody else.


    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: How does Neil Obstat reconcile geocentrism with modern science?
    « Reply #41 on: March 23, 2018, 03:05:25 PM »
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  • For Neil Obstat: thought you might like to see this awesome new global map from NOAA.
    .
    https://weather.com/news/trending/video/noaa-provides-incredibly-detailed-animation-of-the-ocean-floor
    Lord have mercy.

    Offline happenby

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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: How does Neil Obstat reconcile geocentrism with modern science?
    « Reply #43 on: March 23, 2018, 06:59:21 PM »
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  • For Neil Obstat: thought you might like to see this awesome new global map from NOAA.
    .
    https://weather.com/news/trending/video/noaa-provides-incredibly-detailed-animation-of-the-ocean-floor
    .
    Thank you, Maria Regina. Maybe NOAA can make one for flat-earthers too then they won't feel so jealous.  ;)
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.