Author Topic: Has anybody got a question about the Galileo case they would like to ask? (Read 6153 times)

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #30 on:** April 03, 2025, 01:25:37 PM »

Ok, so the Airy and M&M experiments proved geocentrism, but were ignored, or the results (as explained to the popes) were skewed/altered. Makes sense.

cassini · « **Reply #31 on:** April 04, 2025, 05:06:37 AM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 03, 2025, 01:25:37 PM

Ok, so the Airy and M&M experiments proved geocentrism, but were ignored, or the results (as explained to the popes) were skewed/altered. Makes sense.

No Pax, human science cannot prove H or G for certain, all it can do is falsify theories if possible. So the Airy and M&m results only falsified the so-called proofs for heliocentrism attribited to Newton and Stellar Aberration (1726), the 'proofs' given to popes to change the meaning of Scripture held by all the Fathers and defended in 1616 and 1633.

Pope Pius VII finally gave in to a heliocentric meaning of the Bible in 1820. The Airy and M&M tests that provided evidence for the sun and stars going around the Earth did not come until 1870 and 1880, tests that falsified the so-called proofs that Pius Vii was told proved the Earth goes around the sun. That is why churchmen had to say nothing and carry with their material heresy that began Modernism in the Catholic Church, that in turn resulted in Vatican II and the greatest apostasy in Catholicism in its history.

‘What we see therefore, is not ultimately a problem in the rational natural order. It is ultimately a problem in the supernatural order, when churchmen since 1820 lost their faith through the art of temptation and deception. They were tempted to believe in another kind of revelation, that which comes through demons. In this they are no different than Adam and Eve. They began to believe the report of ‘science’ on its own authority. They gave human reason a higher degree of credibility than Divine Revelation.’
Here is another example where the heresy led to:

If one goes along with an evolved ‘creation,’ as Ratzinger and most modern churchmen do, then other teachings in Genesis had to be modernised:

‘The account [in Genesis] tells us that sin begets sin, and that therefore all the sins of history are interlinked. Theology refers to this state of affairs by the certainly misleading and imprecise term ‘original sin.’ What does this mean? Nothing seems to us today to be stranger or, indeed, more absurd than to insist upon original sin, since, according to our way of thinking, guilt can only be something very personal and since God does not run a cσncєnтrαтισn cαмρ, in which one’s relatives are imprisoned, because he is a liberating God of love, who calls each one by name. What does original sin mean, then, when we interpret it correctly?.... Sin is a loss of relationship,…therefore it is not restricted to the individual. At the very moment that a person begins human existence, he or she is confronted by a sin damaged world.’ Consequently, each person is, from the very start, damaged in relationships.’--- Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger: In the Beginning p,72.

‘Nothing seems to us today to be stranger or, indeed, more absurd than to insist upon original sin,’ said Cardinal Ratzinger, the sin committed by Adam and Eve who fell for Satan’s lie that if they eat the forbidden fruit of the tree they would know all things not made known to them by God. The same sin that needed Christ to become man to suffer death in order to open the gates of Heaven once more. Where now the sacrament of Baptism, necessary to give us the means to enter heaven? And what about the dogma of the Immaculate Conception wherein the Virgin Mary was conceived in God’s love without Original Sin? Now you see what their U-turn did to Catholic theology.

King Tailor · « **Reply #32 on:** April 04, 2025, 11:35:06 AM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 03, 2025, 12:07:36 PM

Except there's no evidence that the earth spins, or is tilted. And contrary to Scripture, a spinning earth would NOT be "fixed".

Why when you quote me does it not show my name? Did you delete my name from the quote for a reason?

This is how you quote:

"Who hast founded the earth upon its own bases: it shall not be moved for ever and ever." DRB

But what about earthquakes, the earth doesn't seem to be fixed? (Not doubting the Bible)

Objection:

But there's no evidence that the earth spins or is tilted?

Answer

A tilted and spinning earth would answer how there is day and the seasons. Spinning in place (fixed) because of day and night, tilted for the seasons because the sun going around its orbit of the earth one side being farther away than the other.

cassini · « **Reply #33 on:** April 04, 2025, 12:40:13 PM »

Quote from: King Tailor on April 04, 2025, 11:35:06 AM

Why when you quote me does it not show my name? Did you delete my name from the quote for a reason?

This is how you quote:

"Who hast founded the earth upon its own bases: it shall not be moved for ever and ever." DRB

But what about earthquakes, the earth doesn't seem to be fixed? (Not doubting the Bible)

Objection:

But there's no evidence that the earth spins or is tilted?

Answer

A tilted and spinning earth would answer how there is day and the seasons. Spinning in place (fixed) because of day and night, tilted for the seasons because the sun going around its orbit of the earth one side being farther away than the other.

“The Earth shook and trembled.” ---Ps. 76:19
“All the foundations of the Earth shall be moved;” ---Ps. 81:5
“At the presence of the Lord the Earth was moved;” ---Ps. 113:7

As regards quotes like above, it is understood they are referring to the Earth being moved locally by Earthquakes, volcanoes, landslides etc. In other cases, sometimes such passages refer to the shaken persons who live on it, and who either through fear or astonishment at some natural or divine occurrences are ‘moved’ in different ways. Search as you may for an example of a spinning or orbiting Earth in the books of Scripture and you will not find a single one. Similarly, nowhere in the Bible do we find mention of a fixed sun around which the Earth is supposed to move.

KING TAYLOR'S ANSWER: 'A tilted and spinning earth would answer how there is day and the seasons. Spinning in place (fixed) because of day and night, tilted for the seasons because the sun going around its orbit of the earth one side being farther away than the other.'

Then there is the phenomenon called the precession of the equinoxes. The explanation for this phenomenon in geocentric times was that the universe spins like a gyroscope around the Earth causing the sun to move up and down bringing about the different seasons. Moreover, the axial precession of this gyroscopic movement completes a full circle causing what is called precession creep (see illustration below). The periodicity of the precessional phenomenon as illustrated above is often given as 25920 years which is 2 x 216 x 60 or twice 6-cubed by sixty. Once the heliocentric model was established as supposedly proven, it is the Earth, they say, which spins like the gyroscope creating day and night and the seasons on Earth and the precession of the equinoxes. With relativity prevailing in the universe for human science, neither of the two orders can be proven or falsified. But according to the Bible's revelation of geocentrism, it has to be the universe gyrating around the sun annually.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #34 on:** April 04, 2025, 12:48:37 PM »

Quote

No Pax, human science cannot prove H or G for certain,

I believe it's possible, even if it hasn't happened yet (completely).

Faith and Reason/science aren't at odds. In the hands of those who have the Faith, then reason/science is attuned to God and all human/science answers can be found.

Quote

all it can do is falsify theories if possible.

This is just another way of looking at the same solution. If you have two diametrically opposed theories, helio vs geo, and if you are able to prove that Helio is false, then logically, geocentrism is correct.

As Sherlock Holmes famously said (paraphrasing), "When you eliminate/disprove all that is impossible, then what you are left with, however improbable, must be true."

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #35 on:** April 04, 2025, 12:50:30 PM »

Quote

A tilted and spinning earth would answer how there is day and the seasons.

Doesn't mean it's the ONLY answer. There could be a flat earth answer as well.

cassini · « **Reply #36 on:** April 04, 2025, 01:00:10 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 04, 2025, 12:48:37 PM

I believe it's possible, even if it hasn't happened yet (completely).

Faith and Reason/science aren't at odds. In the hands of those who have the Faith, then reason/science is attuned to God and all human/science answers can be found.
This is just another way of looking at the same solution. If you have two diametrically opposed theories, helio vs geo, and if you are able to prove that Helio is false, then logically, geocentrism is correct.

As Sherlock Holmes famously said (paraphrasing), "When you eliminate/disprove all that is impossible, then what you are left with, however improbable, must be true."

What we are dealing with Pax is the creation of the universe by God.

St Thomas wrote:

‘That the world began to exist is an object of faith, but not of demonstration or science. And it is useful to consider this, lest anyone, presuming to demonstrate what is of faith, should bring forward reasons that are not cogent, so as to give occasion to unbelievers to laugh, thinking that on such grounds we believe things that are of faith.’--- St. Thomas Aquinas, (Summa theolagiae I.46.2)

‘The knowledge proper to this science of theology comes by divine revelation not natural reason. Therefore, it has no concern to prove principles of other sciences, but only to judge them. Whatever is found in other sciences contrary to any truth of this science of theology must be condemned as false.’ (ST, I, Q 1, a 6, ad 2).

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #37 on:** April 04, 2025, 01:41:36 PM »

Cassini, St Thomas isn't saying that we stop looking for scientific discoveries; he's only saying that if we can't discover everything, then this isn't an obstacle to Faith.

I'm sure the saints of the Middle Ages could never fathom the modern discoveries of the atom, or DNA, fingerprinting, etc. All of which God allowed to be found. And none of us, St Thomas included, knows what God will allow to be discovered (in the future) or not.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #38 on:** April 04, 2025, 02:04:52 PM »

Quote from: cassini on April 04, 2025, 12:40:13 PM

As regards quotes like above, it is understood they are referring to the Earth being moved locally by Earthquakes, volcanoes, landslides etc. In other cases, sometimes such passages refer to the shaken persons who live on it, and who either through fear or astonishment at some natural or divine occurrences are ‘moved’ in different ways.

THIS ^^^

Viva Cristo Rey · « **Reply #39 on:** April 04, 2025, 10:35:01 PM »

Are many discoveries created by God or the devil. The devil is a great deceiver. Many discoveries are by men who worshipped Satan.

Much science is promoted to remove God from society.

cassini · « **Reply #40 on:** April 05, 2025, 04:06:48 AM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 04, 2025, 01:41:36 PM

Cassini, St Thomas isn't saying that we stop looking for scientific discoveries; he's only saying that if we can't discover everything, then this isn't an obstacle to Faith.

I'm sure the saints of the Middle Ages could never fathom the modern discoveries of the atom, or DNA, fingerprinting, etc. All of which God allowed to be found. And none of us, St Thomas included, knows what God will allow to be discovered (in the future) or not.

What St Thomas says is that the supernatural act of God's Creation cannot be described by way of human science. On November 22, 1951, twenty years after the Big Bang theory was invented, Pope Pius XII decided to divinise the theory against Fr Lemaître’s advice not to make “concordist” comments on science and Holy Scripture. Nevertheless, Pope Pius XII addressed the Pontifical Academy of Sciences with ‘The Proofs for the Existence of God in the Light of Modern Natural Science’ in as holy language as he could muster.

The result of God's creation can of course be discovered, but they are not the creative act.

‘God…Creator of all visible and invisible things, of the spiritual and of the corporal; who by His own omnipotent power at once from the beginning of time created each creature from nothing, spiritual and corporal, namely, angelic and mundane, and finally the human, both of the spirit and the body.’ (Lateran Council IV, 1215).

‘All that exists outside God was, in its whole substance, produced out of nothing by God. (De fide.) (Vatican Council I, 1870)

cassini · « **Reply #41 on:** April 05, 2025, 12:58:24 PM »

Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey on April 04, 2025, 10:35:01 PM

Are many discoveries created by God or the devil. The devil is a great deceiver. Many discoveries are by men who worshipped Satan.

Much science is promoted to remove God from society.

Absolutely correct Viva.

Throughout its history, the Catholic faith has warned its flock that Satan is the ‘Father of lies,’ capable even of fooling the elect (Matt. 24:24), those men who preside over the running of the Catholic Church. According to Genesis, Satan had successfully tempted Adam and Eve, the first two human beings, with the promise if they ignored God’s order not to eat the forbidden fruit, then they would gain more knowledge than that given to them by God. The consequences of this Original Sin brought suffering and death to all humanity thereafter. The Devil obviously knew if that lie worked with Adam and Eve, why wouldn’t the very same lie work with their weakened descendants?

Now if there is a devil called Satan, determined to eliminate God from the minds of mankind, surely the fact that humans were created on Earth at the centre of the universe had to be the first ‘natural light of reason from created things’ that had to be taken from our reasoning. So, before Christ was born, Satan had planted such a lie among pagans, while adding many associated deceits to further remove the need for a supernatural God Creator from the senses and minds of mankind, illusions like the world evolved naturally from atoms, that the universe is infinite, that the Earth has a soul that moves it, that is, rotates and orbits the great fire in the sky, and that there are many other worlds with intelligent creatures living on them. We see then, Satan laid down for Adam and Eve’s descendants what became for us a ‘science’ of origins, whereas they are nothing more than mind-illusions conjured up to eliminate God as Creator of the universe and all on Earth. When the Church of Christ was founded, it condemned all these beliefs as heresies and false philosophies, a fact confirmed by the anti-geocentrist Prof. A. A. Martinez in his books.

‘Our present book traces the development of ancient Pythagorean beliefs about religion, astronomy and their interconnection, explaining how early Christian Church Fathers condemned such beliefs…. Saint Hippolytus (150-236AD) of Rome criticised the “alliance between heresy and the Pythagorean philosophy” and he denounced the “enormous and endless heresies” of the “disciples not of Christ, but of Pythagoras.”…I will show how the cult of Pythagoras became notorious for anti-Christian beliefs, polytheism, the transmigration of souls, divination, the plurality and eternity of worlds, and denials of the uniqueness and divinity of Jesus.’--Prof. A. A. Martinez: Pythagoras or Christ, Independent Publishing, 2014.

Today, most of these heresies are promoted in the Catholic Church. Sure its no wonder supernatural faith has gone with our churchmen promoting a secular natural account of origins today, a story that does not need God as Creator.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #42 on:** April 05, 2025, 01:23:10 PM »

Quote

St Thomas wrote:
‘That the world began to exist is an object of faith, but not of demonstration or science.

He's saying that science cannot prove or demonstrate God's 'act of creation', but that God's work to create the world is an object of Faith, i.e. we MUST believe that God created it.

Quote

And it is useful to consider this, lest anyone, presuming to demonstrate what is of faith, should bring forward reasons that are not cogent,

And no one should bring forward illogical or unconvincing (i.e. not cogent) reasons in defense of this faith/doctrine,

Quote

so as to give occasion to unbelievers to laugh, thinking that on such grounds we believe things that are of faith.’--- St. Thomas Aquinas, (Summa theolagiae I.46.2)

Because these illogical/unconvincing reasons would cause non-catholics to laugh and find The Faith, and this doctrine, more unbelieving.

Summary: God's creation of the world is a matter of faith, and not a demonstration of science. If anyone think they can demonstration such creation using science, and they use reasons which don't make sense or are illogical, you will do damage to The Faith/Catholicism, because you will give unbelievers a reason to laugh at our unreasonableness.

Comment: Yes, the creation of the world, by God is a matter of faith. But that doesn't mean that man cannot understand WHAT God created. It simply means that we cannot know the HOW He created it. For the search for the "WHAT" is the definition and goal of science itself. And God (nor the Church) has ever put a limit on WHAT man can ATTEMPT to understand.

The Church (and her saints) have only said that "IF" we cannot understand creation fully, this is not a problem, for creation is partly a mystery. But we don't know the limits of what God will or will not allow to be discovered. There's no sin in attempting to understand, just as catholics do not sin in attempting to ponder the mysteries of the Trinity or salvation.

Quote

‘The knowledge proper to this science of theology comes by divine revelation not natural reason. Therefore, it has no concern to prove principles of other sciences, but only to judge them. Whatever is found in other sciences contrary to any truth of this science of theology must be condemned as false.’ (ST, I, Q 1, a 6, ad 2).

St Thomas is simply saying that natural sciences cannot contradict theology. Irrelevant to the discussion, as all catholics know this.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #43 on:** April 05, 2025, 01:26:10 PM »

Quote

What St Thomas says is that the supernatural act of God's Creation cannot be described by way of human science.

Of course, I agree.

Quote

The result of God's creation can of course be discovered, but they are not the creative act.

The shape of the world is the result of God's creation. I believe, therefore, that it's *possible* to determine this. Even if it hasn't been done before (or has been discovered, but kept a secret, by those who are anti-creation, anti-God, and anti-Church).

Author Topic: Has anybody got a question about the Galileo case they would like to ask? (Read 6153 times)

Pax Vobis

Re: Has anybody got a question about the Galileo case they would like to ask?

cassini

Re: Has anybody got a question about the Galileo case they would like to ask?

King Tailor

Re: Has anybody got a question about the Galileo case they would like to ask?

cassini

Re: Has anybody got a question about the Galileo case they would like to ask?

Pax Vobis

Re: Has anybody got a question about the Galileo case they would like to ask?

Pax Vobis

Re: Has anybody got a question about the Galileo case they would like to ask?

cassini

Re: Has anybody got a question about the Galileo case they would like to ask?

Pax Vobis

Re: Has anybody got a question about the Galileo case they would like to ask?

Ladislaus

Re: Has anybody got a question about the Galileo case they would like to ask?

Viva Cristo Rey

Re: Has anybody got a question about the Galileo case they would like to ask?

cassini

Re: Has anybody got a question about the Galileo case they would like to ask?

cassini

Re: Has anybody got a question about the Galileo case they would like to ask?

Pax Vobis

Re: Has anybody got a question about the Galileo case they would like to ask?

Pax Vobis

Re: Has anybody got a question about the Galileo case they would like to ask?