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Traditional Catholic Faith => Fighting Errors in the Modern World => The Earth God Made - Flat Earth, Geocentrism => Topic started by: Lastdays on October 15, 2017, 08:39:05 PM

Title: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Lastdays on October 15, 2017, 08:39:05 PM
The Freemasonic NASA cartoon ball lacks pillars, foundations, a solid firmament with waters above it, flood gates, corners etc. It also has a solid core in the middle which we know is not biblical. Hmm, I wonder why they would remove Purgatory and Hell and put a solid core in the middle? Just a coincidence, right people? Dan 4:8 and Mat 4:8 are not even possible on a ball. The ball is dead. :incense: Say night, night to the ball earth.
 
Gen 1:6-8  God also said: Be a firmament made amidst the waters: and let it divide between waters and waters. And God made a firmament, and divided the waters that were under the firmament, from those that were above the firmament. And it was so done. And God called the firmament, Heaven: and there was evening & morning that made the second day.

Gen 7:11  In the six hundred year of the life of Noe, in the second month, in the seventeenth day of the month, all the fountains of the great depth were broken up, and the flood-gates of Heaven were opened:

Gen 8:2  And the fountains of the depth, and the flood-gates of Heaven, were shut up: and the rain from Heaven was stayed.

1 Kgs 2:8  He raiseth the needy man from the dust, and from the dung he lifteth up the poor: that he may sit with Princes, and hold the throne of glory. For the poles of the earth are our Lords, and upon them he hath set the world.
 
2 Kgs 22:16  And the overflowings of the sea appeared, and the foundations of the world were discovered at the rebuking of our Lord, at the breathing of the spirit of his fury.

Ps 74:4  The earth is melted, and all that dwell in it: I have confirmed the pillars thereof.
 
Ps 103:2-3  Thou hast put on confession and beauty: being clothed with light as with a garment: Stretching out the Heaven as a skin: which coverest the higher parts thereof with waters.
 
Prov 8:28-29  When he established the firmament above, and poised the fountains of waters: when he compassed the sea with her limits, and set a law to the waters that they should not pass their bounds: when he hanged the foundations of the earth

Dan 4:8  A great tree, and strong: and the height thereof touching the Heaven: the sight thereof was even to the ends of all the earth.

Is 40:22  He that sitteth upon the compass of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts: he that stretcheth out the heavens as nothing, and spreadeth them as a tent to dwell in.

Is 43:6  I will say to the North: give: and to the South, Hinder not: bring my sons from a far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth.

Is 66:1  Thus saith our Lord: Heaven is my seat, and the earth my foot stool: what is this house that you will build to me? and what is this place of my rest?

Ezk 1:26  And  above the firmament, that hung over their head, as it were the form of the sapphire stone the similitude of a throne, and upon the similitude of the throne, a similitude as it were the shape of a man above.

Job 9:6  He that removeth the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof are shaken.

Job 37:18  Thou perhaps madst the heavens with him, which are most sound, cast as it were of brass.

Job 38:4-6  Where wast thou when I laid  the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. Who set the measures thereof, if thou know? or who stretched out the line upon it? upon what are the foundations thereof grounded? or who let down the corner stone thereof,

Job 38:13  And didst thou hold the extremities of the earth shaking them, and hast thou shaken the impious out of it?

Mat 4:8  Again the Devil took him up into a very high mountain: and he shewed him all the Kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them,


Apoc 7:1  After these things I saw four Angels standing upon the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth that they should not blow upon the land, nor upon the sea, nor on any tree.

Apoc 20:7  And when the thousand years shall be consummate, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go forth, and seduce the nations that are upon the four corners of the earth, Gog, and Magog, and shall gather them into battle, the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
 
 
 
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: tornpage on October 15, 2017, 08:53:46 PM
Let's assume that the measure of truth is the magisterium of the Catholic Church, not private interpretations of Scripture, no matter how "cogent" you or I may think they are; since we are both Catholics, it is easy to make this assumption between us.

Has the Church measured this and certified the earth as flat? Were any of your brethren making these arguments to the Church when we had a magisterium prior to 1959? Why didn't the Church "bite" and make the declaration you do?

The lack of a living magisterium doesn't give you much cover in light of the fact that you were naked for almost two thousand years prior to 1959 and your defects were obvious. . . but memories are short and historical context generally eludes the present, so why not, eh?
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Lastdays on October 15, 2017, 09:36:16 PM
Let's assume that the measure of truth is the magisterium of the Catholic Church, not private interpretations of Scripture, no matter how "cogent" you or I may think they are; since we are both Catholics, it is easy to make this assumption between us. Has the Church measured this and certified the earth as flat? Were any of your brethren making these arguments to the Church when we had a magisterium prior to 1959? Why didn't the Church "bite" and make the declaration you do?

In the absence of an ex Cathedra statement, Catholics are to hold to tradition and a literal interpretation of the Scriptures, unless reason suggests otherwise. The NASA cartoon ball is not traditional and it is unreasonable to any sane person.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: RoughAshlar on October 15, 2017, 10:44:04 PM
Keep in mind Leo XIII's Providentissimus Deus.  He was speaking about the exact topic you are debating...The literal interpretation of scripture.

To understand how just is the rule here formulated we must remember, first, that the sacred writers, or to speak more accurately, the Holy Ghost "Who spoke by them, did not intend to teach men these things (that is to say, the essential nature of the things of the visible universe), things in no way profitable unto salvation."(53) Hence they did not seek to penetrate the secrets of nature, but rather described and dealt with things in more or less figurative language, or in terms which were commonly used at the time, and which in many instances are in daily use at this day, even by the most eminent men of science. Ordinary speech primarily and properly describes what comes under the senses; and somewhat in the same way the sacred writers-as the Angelic Doctor also reminds us - `went by what sensibly appeared,"(54) or put down what God, speaking to men, signified, in the way men could understand and were accustomed to.
19. The unshrinking defence of the Holy Scripture, however, does not require that we should equally uphold all the opinions which each of the Fathers or the more recent interpreters have put forth in explaining it; for it may be that, in commenting on passages where physical matters occur, they have sometimes expressed the ideas of their own times, and thus made statements which in these days have been abandoned as incorrect. Hence, in their interpretations, we must carefully note what they lay down as belonging to faith, or as intimately connected with faith-what they are unanimous in. For "in those things which do not come under the obligation of faith, the Saints were at liberty to hold divergent opinions, just as we ourselves are,"(55) according to the saying of St. Thomas. And in another place he says most admirably: "When philosophers are agreed upon a point, and it is not contrary to our faith, it is safer, in my opinion, neither to lay down such a point as a dogma of faith, even though it is perhaps so presented by the philosophers, nor to reject it as against faith, lest we thus give to the wise of this world an occasion of despising our faith."
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Truth is Eternal on October 15, 2017, 11:31:54 PM
Let's assume that the measure of truth is the magisterium of the Catholic Church, not private interpretations of Scripture, no matter how "cogent" you or I may think they are; since we are both Catholics, it is easy to make this assumption between us.

Has the Church measured this and certified the earth as flat? Were any of your brethren making these arguments to the Church when we had a magisterium prior to 1959? Why didn't the Church "bite" and make the declaration you do?

The lack of a living magisterium doesn't give you much cover in light of the fact that you were naked for almost two thousand years prior to 1959 and your defects were obvious. . . but memories are short and historical context generally eludes the present, so why not, eh?

God didn't error in creating the flat earth.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: An even Seven on October 16, 2017, 07:53:36 AM
Keep in mind Leo XIII's Providentissimus Deus.  He was speaking about the exact topic you are debating...The literal interpretation of scripture.

To understand how just is the rule here formulated we must remember, first, that the sacred writers, or to speak more accurately, the Holy Ghost "Who spoke by them, did not intend to teach men these things (that is to say, the essential nature of the things of the visible universe), things in no way profitable unto salvation."(53) Hence they did not seek to penetrate the secrets of nature, but rather described and dealt with things in more or less figurative language, or in terms which were commonly used at the time, and which in many instances are in daily use at this day, even by the most eminent men of science. Ordinary speech primarily and properly describes what comes under the senses; and somewhat in the same way the sacred writers-as the Angelic Doctor also reminds us - `went by what sensibly appeared,"(54) or put down what God, speaking to men, signified, in the way men could understand and were accustomed to.
19. The unshrinking defence of the Holy Scripture, however, does not require that we should equally uphold all the opinions which each of the Fathers or the more recent interpreters have put forth in explaining it; for it may be that, in commenting on passages where physical matters occur, they have sometimes expressed the ideas of their own times, and thus made statements which in these days have been abandoned as incorrect. Hence, in their interpretations, we must carefully note what they lay down as belonging to faith, or as intimately connected with faith-what they are unanimous in. For "in those things which do not come under the obligation of faith, the Saints were at liberty to hold divergent opinions, just as we ourselves are,"(55) according to the saying of St. Thomas. And in another place he says most admirably: "When philosophers are agreed upon a point, and it is not contrary to our faith, it is safer, in my opinion, neither to lay down such a point as a dogma of faith, even though it is perhaps so presented by the philosophers, nor to reject it as against faith, lest we thus give to the wise of this world an occasion of despising our faith."
Great Quote and it will no doubt be utterly incapable of penetrating flatEarthist's minds. Here are some other very pertinent quotes about the interpreting of Scripture from the Fathers.
To interpret Scripture literally means to interpret it in the way the Author intended it. Not to understand every word of the translation at its base meaning.

Quote
Augustine- The literal meaning of Genesis: "It is also frequently asked what our belief must be about the form and shape of heaven according to Sacred Scripture. Many scholars engage in lengthy discussions on these matters, but the sacred writers with their deeper wisdom have omitted them.   Such subjects are of no profit for those who seek beatitude, and, what is worse, they take up very precious time that ought to be given to what is spiritually beneficial.
 What concern is it of mine whether heaven is like a sphere and the earth is enclosed by it and suspended in the middle of the universe, or whether heaven like a disk above the earth covers it over on one side?"


Quote
Augustin, The literal meaning of Genesis:  “In matters that are obscure and far beyond our vision, even in such as we may find treated in Holy Scripture, different interpretations are sometimes possible without prejudice to the faith we have received. In such a case, we should not rush in headlong and so firmly take our stand on one side that, if further progress in search of truth justly undermines this position, we too fall with it. That would be to battle not for the Teaching of Holy Scriptures but for our own, wishing its teachings to conform to ours, whereas we ought to wish ours to conform to that of Sacred Scriptures."



Quote
Basil, Hexaemeron: “It will not lead me to give less importance to the creation of the universe, that the servant of God, Moses, is silent as to shapes; ... He has passed over in silence, as useless, all that is unimportant for us. Shall I then prefer foolish wisdom to the oracles of the Holy Spirit? Shall I not rather exalt Him who, not wishing to fill our minds with these vanities, has regulated all the economy of Scripture in view of the edification and the making perfect of our souls? It is this which those seem to me not to have understood, who, giving themselves up to the distorted meaning of allegory, have undertaken to give a majesty of their own invention to Scripture. It is to believe themselves wiser than the Holy Spirit, and to bring forth their own ideas under a pretext of exegesis. Let us hear Scripture as it has been written.

Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Lastdays on October 16, 2017, 08:38:46 AM
Keep in mind Leo XIII's Providentissimus Deus.  He was speaking about the exact topic you are debating...The literal interpretation of scripture.

To understand how just is the rule here formulated we must remember, first, that the sacred writers, or to speak more accurately, the Holy Ghost "Who spoke by them, did not intend to teach men these things (that is to say, the essential nature of the things of the visible universe), things in no way profitable unto salvation."(53) Hence they did not seek to penetrate the secrets of nature, but rather described and dealt with things in more or less figurative language, or in terms which were commonly used at the time, and which in many instances are in daily use at this day, even by the most eminent men of science. Ordinary speech primarily and properly describes what comes under the senses; and somewhat in the same way the sacred writers-as the Angelic Doctor also reminds us - `went by what sensibly appeared,"(54) or put down what God, speaking to men, signified, in the way men could understand and were accustomed to.
19. The unshrinking defence of the Holy Scripture, however, does not require that we should equally uphold all the opinions which each of the Fathers or the more recent interpreters have put forth in explaining it; for it may be that, in commenting on passages where physical matters occur, they have sometimes expressed the ideas of their own times, and thus made statements which in these days have been abandoned as incorrect. Hence, in their interpretations, we must carefully note what they lay down as belonging to faith, or as intimately connected with faith-what they are unanimous in. For "in those things which do not come under the obligation of faith, the Saints were at liberty to hold divergent opinions, just as we ourselves are,"(55) according to the saying of St. Thomas. And in another place he says most admirably: "When philosophers are agreed upon a point, and it is not contrary to our faith, it is safer, in my opinion, neither to lay down such a point as a dogma of faith, even though it is perhaps so presented by the philosophers, nor to reject it as against faith, lest we thus give to the wise of this world an occasion of despising our faith."


Unfortunately your example does not apply, since knowing the truth in regards to God's creation is indeed intimately connected with the faith and profitable to salvation. It is for this very reason that the devil and his followers attack it. Unfortunately you and many others (possibly even Pope Leo XIII in his fallible opinion) are unable to see the connection.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: RoughAshlar on October 16, 2017, 09:09:25 AM
Unfortunately your example does not apply, since knowing the truth in regards to God's creation is indeed intimately connected with the faith and profitable to salvation. It is for this very reason that the devil and his followers attack it. Unfortunately you and many others (possibly even Pope Leo XIII in his fallible opinion) are unable to see the connection.
And your thoughts on the St. Augustine quotes from AES....Saint and Doctor of the Church that Leo XIII quoted in Providentissimus Deus.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: St Ignatius on October 16, 2017, 09:11:24 AM
Unfortunately your example does not apply, since knowing the truth in regards to God's creation is indeed intimately connected with the faith and profitable to salvation. It is for this very reason that the devil and his followers attack it. Unfortunately you and many others (possibly even Pope Leo XIII in his fallible opinion) are unable to see the connection.

It's interesting that you seem to show some disdain towards Leo XIII… maybe I do see a connection. 

From the Encyclical, Satis Cognitum:

There can be nothing more dangerous than those heretics who admit nearly the whole cycle of doctrine, and yet by one word, as with a drop of poison, infect the real and simple faith taught by our Lord and handed down by Apostolic tradition.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: DZ PLEASE on October 16, 2017, 09:11:32 AM
... but it isn't even considered that the run-of-the-mill, dubious Dubayist, incompetent, Prostratant, Flatulent Frisbee fanatic is possibly wrong, at least not to any degree more than lip-service.

  The humility is nigh-insufferable....
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: An even Seven on October 16, 2017, 09:20:20 AM
In regards to the OP:

Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: MyrnaM on October 16, 2017, 09:24:01 AM
The Freemasonic NASA cartoon ball lacks pillars, foundations, a solid firmament with waters above it, flood gates, corners etc. It also has a solid core in the middle which we know is not biblical. Hmm, I wonder why they would remove Purgatory and Hell and put a solid core in the middle? Just a coincidence, right people? Dan 4:8 and Mat 4:8 are not even possible on a ball. The ball is dead. :incense: Say night, night to the ball earth.
 
Gen 1:6-8  God also said: Be a firmament made amidst the waters: and let it divide between waters and waters. And God made a firmament, and divided the waters that were under the firmament, from those that were above the firmament. And it was so done. And God called the firmament, Heaven: and there was evening & morning that made the second day.

Gen 7:11  In the six hundred year of the life of Noe, in the second month, in the seventeenth day of the month, all the fountains of the great depth were broken up, and the flood-gates of Heaven were opened:

Gen 8:2  And the fountains of the depth, and the flood-gates of Heaven, were shut up: and the rain from Heaven was stayed.

1 Kgs 2:8  He raiseth the needy man from the dust, and from the dung he lifteth up the poor: that he may sit with Princes, and hold the throne of glory. For the poles of the earth are our Lords, and upon them he hath set the world.
 
2 Kgs 22:16  And the overflowings of the sea appeared, and the foundations of the world were discovered at the rebuking of our Lord, at the breathing of the spirit of his fury.

Ps 74:4  The earth is melted, and all that dwell in it: I have confirmed the pillars thereof.

Ps 103:2-3  Thou hast put on confession and beauty: being clothed with light as with a garment: Stretching out the Heaven as a skin: which coverest the higher parts thereof with waters.

Prov 8:28-29  When he established the firmament above, and poised the fountains of waters: when he compassed the sea with her limits, and set a law to the waters that they should not pass their bounds: when he hanged the foundations of the earth

Dan 4:8 A great tree, and strong: and the height thereof touching the Heaven: the sight thereof was even to the ends of all the earth.

Is 40:22  He that sitteth upon the compass of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts: he that stretcheth out the heavens as nothing, and spreadeth them as a tent to dwell in.

Is 43:6  I will say to the North: give: and to the South, Hinder not: bring my sons from a far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth.

Is 66:1  Thus saith our Lord: Heaven is my seat, and the earth my foot stool: what is this house that you will build to me? and what is this place of my rest?

Ezk 1:26  And  above the firmament, that hung over their head, as it were the form of the sapphire stone the similitude of a throne, and upon the similitude of the throne, a similitude as it were the shape of a man above.

Job 9:6  He that removeth the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof are shaken.

Job 37:18  Thou perhaps madst the heavens with him, which are most sound, cast as it were of brass.

Job 38:4-6  Where wast thou when I laid  the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. Who set the measures thereof, if thou know? or who stretched out the line upon it? upon what are the foundations thereof grounded? or who let down the corner stone thereof,

Job 38:13  And didst thou hold the extremities of the earth shaking them, and hast thou shaken the impious out of it?

Mat 4:8 Again the Devil took him up into a very high mountain: and he shewed him all the Kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them,


Apoc 7:1  After these things I saw four Angels standing upon the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth that they should not blow upon the land, nor upon the sea, nor on any tree.

Apoc 20:7  And when the thousand years shall be consummate, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go forth, and seduce the nations that are upon the four corners of the earth, Gog, and Magog, and shall gather them into battle, the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
 
 
 


Yes, and unless you're sinless:


"And if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out. It is better for thee with one eye to enter into the kingdom of God than having two eyes to be cast into the hell of fire:"
[Mark 9:46 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=48&ch=9&l=46#x)]
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: DZ PLEASE on October 16, 2017, 09:26:41 AM

Yes, and unless you're sinless:


"And if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out. It is better for thee with one eye to enter into the kingdom of God than having two eyes to be cast into the hell of fire:"
[Mark 9:46 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=48&ch=9&l=46#x)]
Who says that the core is solid? Last I'm checking even Godless secular wise, that means we're all long gone dead.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: happenby on October 16, 2017, 12:15:25 PM
Great Quote and it will no doubt be utterly incapable of penetrating flatEarthist's minds. Here are some other very pertinent quotes about the interpreting of Scripture from the Fathers.
To interpret Scripture literally means to interpret it in the way the Author intended it. Not to understand every word of the translation at its base meaning.
As if these are actual teachings on the subject.  Or the only thing to be found in Tradition.  In fact, globers search high and low for confirmation of their error and ignore the mind of the Church on the matter, having dismissed a multitude of Catholic quotes, scripture and decrees, showing there is more to know.  Selective refutation has zero value.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Lastdays on October 16, 2017, 12:25:01 PM
It's interesting that you seem to show some disdain towards Leo XIII… maybe I do see a connection.

From the Encyclical, Satis Cognitum:

There can be nothing more dangerous than those heretics who admit nearly the whole cycle of doctrine, and yet by one word, as with a drop of poison, infect the real and simple faith taught by our Lord and handed down by Apostolic tradition.
I have no disdain towards Pope Leo XIII. I have no idea where you got that from. Neither does your example make sense, since the NASA cartoon ball was not taught by Jesus Christ nor was it handed down by Apostolic tradition.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: An even Seven on October 16, 2017, 12:30:38 PM
I have provided many quotes (https://www.cathinfo.com/the-library/church-fathers-did-not-condemn-flat-earth/) from the Fathers which show either they themselves believed in Globe Earth or did not consider it at all useful/profitable for our salvation. I have more that I can post too. The only quote out there that explicitly condemns Globe Earth is from Lacantius.
There is no absolute proof from Scriptures or Church Teaching that the shape of the Earth is this or that.
As if these are actual teachings on the subject.  Or the only thing to be found in Tradition.  In fact, globers search high and low for confirmation of their error and ignore the mind of the Church on the matter, having dismissed a multitude of Catholic quotes, scripture and decrees, showing there is more to know.  Selective refutation has zero value.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: DZ PLEASE on October 16, 2017, 12:35:03 PM
I have no disdain towards Pope Leo XIII. I have no idea where you got that from. Neither does your example make sense, since the NASA cartoon ball was not taught by Jesus Christ nor was it handed down by Apostolic tradition.
   Jesus didn't mention a lot of things that didn't yet exist, "perhaps" that's why the Apostles neglected to mention non-things as well.

   "It's a mystery."
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: happenby on October 16, 2017, 12:44:32 PM
I have provided many quotes (https://www.cathinfo.com/the-library/church-fathers-did-not-condemn-flat-earth/) from the Fathers which show either they themselves believed in Globe Earth or did not consider it at all useful/profitable for our salvation. I have more that I can post too. The only quote out there that explicitly condemns Globe Earth is from Lacantius.
There is no absolute proof from Scriptures or Church Teaching that the shape of the Earth is this or that.
You did, actually.  I failed to note that out loud.  I too have more to post and while the subject is deeper than trying to find where scripture or Fathers say emphatically earth is round or earth is flat, we can certainly continue to peel this onion until the truth comes out.  Scripture doesn't provide absolute proof, of that there is no doubt.  But it does give us a canvas on which to paint a picture that shows what is true.  Cosmas of Indiocopleustes, a 6th century Catholic monk at odds with pagans tells us that Moses reveals the form of the earth exactly as scripture describes: immovable, like a wax seal with upturned edges, with a dome, a face, four corners, pillars, like a tabernacle, and like a Church.  The globe is incompatible with these.  But further, the globe is incompatible with reason.  The pagan's rotating, hurling ball through space with water attached has no basis in reality.  It is a virtual world that defies logic.  And beyond that, it has no basis in science or math.  Compasses do not work on a globe.  Neither do astrolabes, sextants, gyros, light houses or levels.  Curve has never been demonstrated.  The sun and moon and stars are misrepresented by modern science as well.  With this much evidence something is afoot, we have a responsibility to revisit what we have been told.  
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: kiwiboy on October 16, 2017, 12:45:37 PM
I have provided many quotes (https://www.cathinfo.com/the-library/church-fathers-did-not-condemn-flat-earth/) from the Fathers which show either they themselves believed in Globe Earth or did not consider it at all useful/profitable for our salvation. I have more that I can post too. The only quote out there that explicitly condemns Globe Earth is from Lacantius.
There is no absolute proof from Scriptures or Church Teaching that the shape of the Earth is this or that.

Total lie. You seem to really believe that. The delusions of sedevacantists....

So to explain again for the honest readers...

The emphasis of the flatness of the earth is a new one. We should talk about the whole of creation as it is, and has always been understood.

The Fathers condemned the globe error many times. http://flatearthtrads.forumga.net/t60-pertinent-quotes-from-fathers-and-tradition . This showed they believed the traditional model of the earth being either a flat circle or a flat square, with the sun being what is moving.

In any case our case is rock solid when you add the science. Something that no other minority group like the sedes or feenyites can do. They can't bring science into support their case.

NO CURVATURE ON THE FLAT EARTH.

http://flatearthtrads.forumga.net/f9-flat-earth-proofs

Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: kiwiboy on October 16, 2017, 12:50:41 PM
If people refer back to the thread on st. augustine, I outline  precisely how dishonest this even steven character is....
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Lastdays on October 16, 2017, 12:51:31 PM
In regards to the OP:

There is not one quote at all, that explicitly says that the Earth is Flat
Does your ball earth have pillars, foundations and corners? Does a footstool look like a ball? Can you see a tall tree or all the nations of the earth from the opposite side of a ball?

Quote
There is no reason that a firmament cannot be around a Globe Earth
Sure there is. The firmament can never be below you.


Error is never appropriate. The awesomeness of the creator is only part of what is taught. The fact that Heaven and Hell are actual places that are very near to us is also taught. Also, by rejecting one truth as "figurative", you open the door to reject more truth as "figurative", and eventually you end up with the NASA fabrication.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: An even Seven on October 16, 2017, 01:03:58 PM
You did, actually.  I failed to note that out loud.  I too have more to post and while the subject is deeper than trying to find where scripture or Fathers say emphatically earth is round or earth is flat, we can certainly continue to peel this onion until the truth comes out.  Scripture doesn't provide absolute proof, of that there is no doubt.  But it does give us a canvas on which to paint a picture that shows what is true.
While the science may one day (or already?) prove the Earth is flat, as you say, "Scripture doesn't provide absolute proof". This is all that concerns me. Have at it with all the Science stuff, but the shape of the Earth is not part of Divine Revelation and the denial of the FE is not grounds for condemnation.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: kiwiboy on October 16, 2017, 01:06:46 PM
trying to separate scripture from science especially when it science SUPPORTS scripture is called fideism.

You are guilty of that. Now move on, and stop wasting our time please.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: An even Seven on October 16, 2017, 01:08:47 PM
Total lie. You seem to really believe that. The delusions of sedevacantists....

The Fathers condemned the globe error many times. http://flatearthtrads.forumga.net/t60-pertinent-quotes-from-fathers-and-tradition . This showed they believed the traditional model of the earth being either a flat circle or a flat square, with the sun being what is moving.

 Something that no other minority group like the sedes or feenyites can do.
First, way to alienate groups of people that you assumedly would want to convert to your FE religion.

Second, You've already been exposed. The only explicit condemnation came from Lacantius. Anyone can look at your quotes. I have provided quotes from the Fathers that considered the Earth a sphere as well as quotes maintaining that this is absolutely not important for out salvation. You're only fooling yourself.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: An even Seven on October 16, 2017, 01:15:23 PM
Does your ball earth have pillars, foundations and corners? Does a footstool look like a ball? Can you see a tall tree or all the nations of the earth from the opposite side of a ball?

AES: Is your interpretation of these passages infallible? Have they been declared to mean that the Earth actually looks like this?

Sure there is. The firmament can never be below you.

AES: Sure it can.

Error is never appropriate. The awesomeness of the creator is only part of what is taught. The fact that Heaven and Hell are actual places that are very near to us is also taught. Also, by rejecting one truth as "figurative", you open the door to reject more truth as "figurative", and eventually you end up with the NASA fabrication.

AES: While these passages may not be figurative in the sense that they are not actually true, you assign a strict interpretation of them that may not be the sense that was intended by the Author. Perhaps these passages are meant to convey a certain message to the inspired writer and not meant to actually mean literal footstools, corners, etc... Pride would be the only reason not to admit this.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: kiwiboy on October 16, 2017, 01:15:51 PM
First, way to alienate groups of people that you assumedly would want to convert to your FE religion.

Second, You've already been exposed. The only explicit condemnation came from Lacantius. Anyone can look at your quotes. I have provided quotes from the Fathers that considered the Earth a sphere as well as quotes maintaining that this is absolutely not important for out salvation. You're only fooling yourself.

I gave the links. People can see that saying that "Lactentius was the only explicit one" is a lie for themselves. You will only fool the truly lazy who don't want to read. Honest investigators wont be fooled.

You have provided quotes to support a sphere, I don't and never denied that. But they are a minority opinion. I'm surprised you didn't pull out the Bede the Venerable one. That is really explicit for the globe. There, I'm helping you in your delusion...

As for converting people, I'm only interested in  people who are interested in the truth. All others, can go their merry way...
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Tradplorable on October 16, 2017, 01:19:15 PM
Great Quote and it will no doubt be utterly incapable of penetrating flatEarthist's minds. Here are some other very pertinent quotes about the interpreting of Scripture from the Fathers.
To interpret Scripture literally means to interpret it in the way the Author intended it. Not to understand every word of the translation at its base meaning.
Even Steven shows up with his usual "it doesn't matter what the Bible says about the earth" schtick.
.
.
Dizzy, why haven't you commented on your comrade Even Steven's skills at shuckin' & jivin'?
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: DZ PLEASE on October 16, 2017, 01:22:46 PM
Even Steven shows up with his usual "it doesn't matter what the Bible says about the earth" schtick.
.
.
Dizzy, why haven't you commented on your comrade Even Steven's skills at shuckin' & jivin'?
Yep, you're still an idiot..
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: An even Seven on October 16, 2017, 01:23:31 PM

I gave the links. People can see that saying that "Lactentius was the only explicit one" is a lie for themselves. You will only fool the truly lazy who don't want to read. Honest investigators wont be fooled.

AES: Which other explicitly condemns globe earth then?

You have provided quotes to support a sphere, I don't and never denied that. But they are a minority opinion. I'm surprised you didn't pull out the Bede the Venerable one. That is really explicit for the globe. There, I'm helping you in your delusion...

AES: What's more important to me is the fact that people see how ridiculous the claim is that FE is explicitly in Scripture and that the Fathers taught it as an article of faith. The Fathers explicitly warn against trying to use Scripture to support this very issue among other issues. The reason is because FE etc... is not part of the Faith and if they are proven wrong it would be a Scandal to those we're trying to convert.

As for converting people, I'm only interested in  people who are interested in the truth. All others, can go their merry way...

AES: Wow. That quite an assertion. Of course with the implication that "sedes and feeneyites" are not interested in Truth. Very Bold.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: kiwiboy on October 16, 2017, 01:24:19 PM
Yep, you're still an idiot..

I think I understood what dizzy said!

Wow that was the first coherent post I have seen from him in a while!
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Tradplorable on October 16, 2017, 01:26:40 PM
 but the shape of the Earth is not part of Divine Revelation and the denial of the FE is not grounds for condemnation.
I guess you'll certainly find out, eh?
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: kiwiboy on October 16, 2017, 01:29:41 PM


These quotes condemn the globe http://flatearthtrads.forumga.net/t60-pertinent-quotes-from-fathers-and-tradition

Listen I only respond to you in so far as you are leading people astray. I am not interested in your feelings about me or the truth because you have already shown yourself to be a dishonest person. What's worse is you are trying to masquerade as on honest one. The others are at least open about their malice.

Science supports the flat earth, so it is proven right. It is globalism that scandalises.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: An even Seven on October 16, 2017, 01:29:55 PM
I guess you'll certainly find out, eh?
And you won't?
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: An even Seven on October 16, 2017, 01:32:06 PM
These quotes condemn the globe http://flatearthtrads.forumga.net/t60-pertinent-quotes-from-fathers-and-tradition

Listen I only respond to you in so far as you are leading people astray. I am not interested in your feelings about me or the truth because you have already shown yourself to be a dishonest person. What's worse is you are trying to masquerade as on honest one. The others are at least open about their malice.

Science supports the flat earth, so it is proven right. It is globalism that scandalises.
Then prove what you say is necessary for salvation. Prove that what I'm saying is leading people astray. You haven't backed up anything that you've said.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: kiwiboy on October 16, 2017, 01:37:22 PM
Then prove what you say is necessary for salvation. Prove that what I'm saying is leading people astray. You haven't backed up anything that you've said.

Listen you are trying to provoke me into rehashing my old posts. I'm sorry but I don't have to time for this. I ask honest people to refer to the thread on st. Augustine if they want to verify I am right.

The globe earth is an error. Theologically and scientifically.

Now I have to go do some.... stuff.


https://youtu.be/EFGELQ71J3o
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: St Ignatius on October 16, 2017, 03:08:15 PM
To interpret Scripture literally means to interpret it in the way the Author intended it. Not to understand every word of the translation at its base meaning.

Being we have some members here who think highly of their own "interpretations," I thought that it wouldn't be inappropriate to share an "interpretation" by a Protestant... the only difference is, this protestant is far more intelligent in his "interpretation."
This could possibly invite some interesting and colorful conversation...



What is the Firmament of Day 2?
Mar 27, 2015

http://kgov.com/what-is-the-firmament-of-day-2-aka-the-raqia (http://kgov.com/what-is-the-firmament-of-day-2-aka-the-raqia)


Updated July 2017. This topic of the "firmament" is also of great interest to atheists. A popular anti-creationist made a 40-minute YouTube video critical of this article. We may have hit a nerve. Many atheists have claimed that the Bible teaches that the earth is surrounded by a solid domed sky. Instead, the Bible actually teaches that the firmament of Day Two is the crust of the earth, which divided water below the crust, from the waters on the surface. Documenting this thereby rebuts the widespread false allegation of a dome. When we first published this article, that extra bonus was unexpected. So we've embedded and responded to Brett Palmer's video including by pointing out that the Babylonian creation epic, Enuma Elish,below (http://kgov.com/what-is-the-firmament-of-day-2-aka-the-raqia#babylonian-creation-account), corroborates this understanding of the "firmament" as first referring to the earth's crust (i.e., biblically, to paradise, to heaven on earth). And we show that the Bible's Hebrew word for firmament, raqia, from the verb raqa, refers not only to the heavens above, but explicitly, to the crust of the earth. And we present the meaning of the Syrian geographical place name, Raqqa,and extend to antiquity the etymology of the English word, rock.
At Real Science Radio (http://realscienceradio.com/) (which airs onColorado's most-powerful radio station (http://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=KLTT&service=AM&status=L&hours=D)), we teach Dr. Walt Brown's Hydroplate Theoryas the best understanding of the global flood, geology and the relevant scriptures.

On Day Two God Made the Crust of the Earth: Dr. Walt Brown's Hydroplate Theoryhelps to understand the global flood, geology and the relevant scriptures. On Day Two of creation, God formed the crust of the earth, called the firmament (Hebrew:raqia), which extended for miles above a worldwide subterranean ocean, and the crust of course also held waters upon its surface. If this is true, we would expect to read in the Bible that initially, the surface of the earth was covered only with water, and that then God made the earth's crust above the water. And consistent with the Hydroplate Theory (which describes a layer of water at least one-mile thick that was perhaps dozens of miles below the earth's surface), in fact the Bible teaches that God:
- "In the beginning God created... the earth. ...and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters" (Genesis 1:1-2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%201:1-2;%206-7&version=NKJV)). Then God,
- "laid out (raqa) the earth above the waters" (Psalm 136:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%20136:5-9&version=NKJV)). And,
- "by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth [was] standing out of water and in the water" (2 Peter 3:5 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+peter+3%3A5&version=NKJV)).
- "Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament" (Gen. 1:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%201:7&version=NKJV)). So,
"The earth is the Lord’s... For He has founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the waters" (Ps.24:1-2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+24%3A1-2&version=NKJV)).
(http://kgov.com/files/images/science/subterranean-chamber.jpg) (http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/HydroplateOverview6.html)Where the Water Came From: The global flood then began when those "fountains of the great deep were broken up" (Gen. 7:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%207:11&version=NKJV)) for the pre-flood earth had been "standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water" (2 Peter 3:5-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter%203:5-6&version=NKJV)). Those waters had been stored up for global judgment if needed. For when "the heavens were made," the Bible says of much of the Earth's water back then that God "lays up the deep in storehouses" (Ps. 33:6-7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%2033:6-7&version=NKJV); see also Prov. 8:27-28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs%208:27-28&version=NKJV)). For God created not only the surface waters, for He "made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters" (Rev. 14:7 (http://biblehub.com/revelation/14-7.htm) KJV [as with many versions; some like the NKJV say "springs of water"). Dr. Brown's book, In the Beginning (http://www.kgovstore.com/servlet/Detail?no=7), demonstrates powerfully that the world's major geologic features flow logically from these initial conditions. But some creationists who disagree point out that, "God called the firmament Heaven" (Gen. 1:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%201:1-8&version=NKJV)), claiming that this firmament must be either the atmosphere (e.g., Henry Morris) or outer space (e.g., Russell Humphreys).
Heaven on Earth, Hell Beneath: However at RSR we show that, whether figurative or literal, the crust of the earth is the boundary between heaven and hell. It is consistent with the Bible story that God would originally call the crust of the earth "heaven." For at creation, "He drew a circular horizon on the face of the waters, at the boundary of light and darkness. The pillars of heaven tremble... He stirs up the sea with His power..." (Job 26:10-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job%2026:10-12&version=NKJV)). Everything below the crust can be referred to as hell, the place of the dead which functions as the prison that God had planned for any future unrepentant beings. "Hell from beneath is excited about you, to meet you at your coming" (Isa. 14:9; etc., and Abraham's bosom notwithstanding). For the newly-made earth, the Lord logically referred to everything from the crust and above as heaven. Hence dozens of verses indicate that heaven also refers to the earth's atmosphere as in "rain from heaven," the "dew of heaven," "birds of heaven," "dust from the heaven," city walls "fortified up to heaven," smoke rises "to the midst of heaven," "the heavens are shut" in drought, "frost of heaven," "clouds of heaven," "snow from heaven," "hail from heaven," and the east winds "blow in the heavens." Thus even after the Fall, from Genesis and Job, through the Gospels, Acts and Revelation, the Bible continued to refer to the atmosphere, one molecule above the ground, as heaven. Also, the Bible's thirty-two occurrences of the phrase "kingdom of heaven" appear only in the royal Gospel of Matthew, and some of these (Mat. 11:12; 13:24 with Mat. 13:38; 16:19; Mat. 18:1 with Luke 9:46; etc.) locate this kingdom of "heaven" at least partially on earth.
(http://kgov.com/files/images/Lucifer.jpg) (http://kgov.com/files/images/Lucifer.jpg)Lucifer Fell fromHeaven on Earth: "God called the firmament Heaven," because the earth's crust formed the boundary between heaven and the future hell. The firmament also divided the waters of the earth (Gen. 1:2, 6) which even reserved the floodwaters of judgment below ground. For God "lays up the deep in storehouses" so "let all the earth fear the Lord," (Ps. 33:7-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%2033:6-9&version=NKJV)), because He "shut in the sea with doors" until in the flood "it burst forth and issued from the womb," (Job. 38:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job%2038:4-8&version=NKJV)). But after the Fall, which likely occurred within a week of Creation (http://kgov.com/when-did-the-fall-in-eden-occur-when-did-adam-and-eve-sin), earth lost its heavenly designation, for apparently God will never fully replicate the first earth. Only two detailed Bible stories involve happenings that occured prior to the Fall, the creation account and the record of Lucifer's fall. And both of these events refer to earth as heaven. Isaiah 14:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2014:12-15&version=NKJV) describes "Lucifer" as "fallen from heaven," yet Scripture places him on earth at the moment of his fall. "You were in Eden, the garden of God," (Ezek. 28:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2028:13-15&version=NKJV)). And "you have said in your heart: "I will ascend into heaven... I will ascend above the heights ofthe clouds," (Isa. 14:13-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2014:12-15&version=NKJV)). "Yet you shall bebrought down to Sheol, to the lowest depths of the Pit," (Isa. 14:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2014:12-15&version=NKJV)). Even though he was on earth, Lucifer fell "from heaven," because prior to the Fall, the surface of the earth was part of heaven's realm.
Consider the flesh. Notice that just as gravity pulls our physical flesh down toward the center of the earth, the Fall created the world system which relentlessly pulls our spiritual flesh, drawing us down toward thelowest depths until death, and then the believer's released spirit soars upward to heaven, whereas the unbeliever's unfettered spirit falls downward, the firmament no longer keeping him out of Hades, thus his soul plummets into hell. C.S. Lewis wrote the preface to D.E. Harding's esoteric The Hierarchy of Heaven & Earth (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0813006406/ref=sib_dp_pt/103-9714446-2732648#reader-page) in which Harding wrote that "Hierarchy is... something like the ancient circles of heaven and earth and hell" (1952, p. 27), and that the "narrowest Hell would be widest Heaven if the Devil could only bring himself to turn round and look out from the Centre instead of in at himself" (p. 187). In the modern classic, Soul of Science (http://www.parable.com/parable/item_0891077669.htm?rid=788), (1994, p. 38), Pearcey and Thaxton describe the view of Christian "medieval cosmology" that "at the very center of the universe was Hell, then the earth, then (moving outward from the center) the progressively nobler spheres of the heavens." Christians continue to affirm this hierarchy quoting Paul who was "caught up to the third heaven" (2 Cor 12:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%2012:2&version=NKJV)), the first being the sky, the second is space, and the third God's habitation. King David even refers to the deep, as the "channels of the sea", where in the flood "the foundations of the world were uncovered", which were "the foundations of heaven" (2 Sam. 22:8, 16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Samuel%2022:5,%208-13,%2016&version=NKJV)).
Moses Qualified His Last Four Uses ofFirmament: Moses used the wordfirmament nine times in the creation account. He intentionally distinguished the last four occurrences from the first four, all of which pivot around the central instance where God called the earth's firmament Heaven. Each of the four in the second grouping (Genesis 1:14, 15, 17, 20) is qualified separately by an exceptional repetition. The prepositional phrase "of the heavens" makes a distinction between the first firmament of the earth, and the second "firmament of the heavens." And if firmament means the "heavens," the very term "firmament of the heavens" would seem unnecessarily redundant. However, the qualifier "of the heavens" is added so that the reader will not confuse this firmament of sky and space with the previous firmament of earth. Thus, readers alien to the notion of "heaven" on earth should nonetheless be able to separate the two firmaments, and understand God's meaning. Now, millennia after the Fall, God's own record of creation notwithstanding, sin has almost completely obscured the original perspective of the earth's surface as "heaven."
Kingdom of Heaven Lost on Earth: When man rebelled, earth became more like hell than heaven. Thus man's habitation on the surface of the earth lost its heavenly designation. The Bible describes Hell as below, bounded by the firmament. However in the beginning "God called the firmamentHeaven" because that's where He placed Adam and Eve, above ground on the surface, in the heavens, in fellowship with Him, not in any other realm but in His kingdom, in heaven on earth.
2011 UPDATE - Atheists and the Solid Dome: YouTube anti-creationist Brett Palmer created a 40-minute rebuttal video (embedded here) of this little article on the firmament. Seems like we hit a nerve. Aside from Brett casting aspersions from therecently invented flat-earth myth (http://rsr.org/flat-earth), consider that as with many other atheists, he claims that the word firmament (Hebrew raqia) discredits the creation account by showing that Genesis cannot be God's Word because it merely echoes the ancient world's false belief in a solid domed sky above the earth. So, if raqia (firmament) refers not only to the heavens, but also to the crust of the earth, standing above a subterranean chamber of water, then atheists would lose a favorite argument.



Raqia is the noun from the verb raqameaning being hammered or spread out, as in working metal into a thin sheet or plate. "They beat (raqa) the gold into thin sheets" (Exodus 39:3). "The goldsmith overspreads (raqa) it with gold" (Isaiah 40:19; i.e., gold-plated). Similarly, God overspread the waters of the earth with the plates of the earth's crust, i.e., the firmament, what Walt Brown calls hydroplates. For "God made the firmament (raqia), and divided the waters which were under the firmament (raqia, the crustal plates) from the waters which were above the firmament" (Genesis 1:7).
Please review again the verses listed below. For not only did God create "the sea and the fountains" (Rev. 14:7), if this understanding ofraqia is is the Bible's actual meaning, then we would expect also to read that initially the surface of the earth was covered only with water, and that then God made the earth's crust above the water:
- "In the beginning God created... the earth. ...darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters."Gen. 1:1-2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%201:1-2;%206-7&version=NKJV)
- God "laid out the earth above the waters" Ps. 136:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%20136:5-9&version=NKJV)
- "by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water" 2 Pet. 3:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20peter%203:6-7&version=NKJV)
- "Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament." Gen. 1:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%201:7&version=NKJV)
"The earth is the Lord’s... For He has founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the waters." Ps. 24:1-2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+24%3A1-2&version=NKJV)
When the Bible specifically links raqa to theearth (as in the passages below), and because words typically have multiple meanings, it is extreme to insist that raqiacannot refer to anything but the heavens. Genesis was written back when pagans wondered what held up the earth. Perhaps it rested on the back of a tortoise, or on a pillar, or was held up by Atlas. Yet the most ancient Scripture teaches that God, "hangs the earth on nothing" (Job 26:7), which is visually consistent with modern astronomical observation. For just as the firmament of the earth holds up the mountains, so too, the firmament "of the heavens" is strong enough to hold the earth.

God Raqa the EARTH! Firmament (raqia) is used "of the heavens" commonly and eleven times the Bible speaks of God stretching out the heavens. Then there is something not included in the above video. Another three times the Bible says that Godraqa the earth itself. This shows, unlike as stressed on YouTube, that raqia very naturally also refers to the earth. Dr. Walt Brown's book lists these verses but I'll repeat them here for Mr. Palmer's consideration:
To Him who laid out (raqa) the earth above the waters… Ps. 136:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%20136:6&version=NKJV)
Thus says God the Lord, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread forth (raqa) the earth and that which comes from it… Isa. 42:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2042:5&version=NKJV)
“I am the Lord, who makes all things,who stretches out the heavens all alone, who spreads abroad (raqa) the earth by Myself;" Isa. 44:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2044:24&version=NKJV)
The firmament (raqia) of the creation account was iconic in ancient Israel, as the Tyndale Bible Dictionary says, "the firmament is always related to Creation." So the repetition and by two authors shows that the wording is deliberate. Thus these verses show an ancient awareness in Scripture that God raqa the Earth, that is, that His stretching out of the raqia of Genesis 1:8 readily refers to terra firma, or as the King James translators coined the word from the Latin, the firmament.
Raqia and Heaven Both Refer Also to the Earth
Raqa the EarthHeaven on Earth
To Him who laid out
(raqa) the earth above
the waters...  Ps. 136:6
"He drew a circular horizon on the face of the waters, at the
boundary of light and darkness. The pillars of heaven tremble...
He stirs up the sea with His power..." Job 26:10-12
Thus says God the Lord,
who created the heavens
and stretched them out,
who spread forth (raqa)
the earth...  Isa. 42:5
"And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom
of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force."
Mat. 11:12; "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed
good seed in his field;" and "the field is the world..."
Mat. 13:24, 38
I am the Lord... who
stretches out the heavens
all alone, who spreads
abroad (raqa) the earth
by Myself  Isa. 44:24
"And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and
whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and
whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven"
Mat. 16:19 [and 18:18]

Etymology of Raqia: The word raqia relates to raqa as sharia (law) relates to shara'a (to ordain or decree). Further, the ancient Middle East commonly ended names (http://books.google.com/books?id=5wwnAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA105&lpg=PA105&dq=hebrew++%22ending+in+ia%22&source=bl&ots=5uHRNKeBrJ&sig=Tzp1m99CCc5rlghdnqg7yUPOfBE&hl=en&ei=b79vTryuKIGHsgLKsJnrCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CEcQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=hebrew%20%20%22ending%20in%20ia%22&f=false) in "ia," and in this particular example of early Hebrew usage, raqia, though not a proper name, is the name for something created byraqa. (Atheist Brett Palmer, though not especially reliable (http://kgov.com/first-soft-tissue-radio-show#palmer-video), does specifically agree with this explanation in his follow-up video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeBbKdQjDfw).)
Pillars of Heaven: Regarding the crust of the Earth being referred to as heaven, consider the "pillars" which formed beneath the crust, as Dr. Brown describes it, at many "locations, the [subterranean] chamber’s sagging ceiling pressed against the chamber’s floor. These solid contacts will be called pillars." Thus since they supported the Earth's surface, they could be referred to as "pillars of heaven", just beneath the surface, which would "tremble" when they were crushed in God's judgment of the great flood of Noah's day, When God, "stirs up the sea with His power", as Job put it. "He drew a circular horizon on the face of the waters, at the boundary of light and darkness. The pillars of heaven tremble... He stirs up the sea with His power..." (Job 26:10-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job%2026:10-12&version=NKJV)).
* No One Before Or Since? Palmer says, virtually alleging omniscience for himself, that "no one before or since Enyart has ever asserted that two firmaments were created in the creation story." However, the nearly contemporaneous Babylonian creation epic states directly that heaven above and the "firm ground below" were called by the same name, that is, "heaven." First though consider Google. The claim then is that the term firmament refers to sky and space, and also to the sphere of the world. So, as the originator of this concept :) that firmamenthas two meanings, I am gratified that it's catching on. The Google results for "define:firmament" gives two meanings:
  • The heavens or the sky, esp. when regarded as a tangible thing
  • A sphere or world viewed as a collection of people
* Not Half Bad and Not Half Right: Hey, for Google, that's not half bad, for the firmament (the Earth's surface) was called heaven so that Adam and Eve could be fruitful and multiply and fill the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth. Then regarding Palmer's claim that, "no one before or since Enyart has ever asserted that two firmaments were created," Dr. Brown's book credits "two pastors (http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/FAQ36.html)" with showing him this simple heaven-on-earth understanding of Genesis 1:8. The pastor before me (http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/FAQ39.html#wp1779433) later publishing a book on the topic: Paradise: Past, Present, and Future, and of course since then, Walt Brown too has adopted this understanding.
* Babylonian Creation Epic: The ancient pagan world had a corrupted memory of biblical accounts. Compare for example Egypt's sun god arising out of the waters of creation (http://www.thebanmappingproject.com/atlas/index_kv.asp?tombID=816) with, "God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, 'Let there be light.'" Likewise the flood of Noah's day is remembered in Babylon's Epic of Gilgamesh (http://creation.com/conclusion-of-nozomi-osanais-thesis-gilgamesh-epic-v-genesis). Also, the seven tablets ofEnuma Elish (http://www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/arc/origins/Mesopotamia4.htm) similarities to the seven days of the creation week include man's creation on the sixth day which is presented on the sixth tablet.(http://kgov.com/files/images/science/rock-etymology.jpg)The first creation tablet describes the "waters commingling as a single body" when "no marsh land had [yet] appeared", reminiscent of the firmament dividing the waters (Gen. 1:6-7) and the dry land appearing (Gen. 1:9). The truth reported by Moses in Genesis 1:8a, that God called the firmamentheaven (referring to the crust of the Earth, i.e., God's kingdom of heaven, on Earth) is emphasized in the first lines of the first Babylonian creation tablet which state (https://books.google.com/books?id=rAEKJejbkiwC&pg=PT107&lpg=PT107&dq=%22When+on+high+the+heaven+had+not+been+named,+Firm+ground+below+had+not+been+called+by+that+name.%22&source=bl&ots=VcMp_QP4Yy&sig=LXCD7IHIX2buZ47gR0qHmtBKYIk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjF3JCb9uPUAhUHw4MKHevYAucQ6AEILjAB#v=onepage&q=%22When%20on%20high%20the%20heaven%20had%20not%20been%20named%2C%20Firm%20ground%20below%20had%20not%20been%20called%20by%20that%20name.%22&f=false), "When on high the heaven had not been named, Firm ground below had not been called by that name." That is, before the term "heaven" even applied to sky and space, before that not even the firmament below had yet been called that same name, i.e., heaven. (This translation, "firm ground below had not [yet] been called by thatname", appears in old-earth Oxford Prof. John Lennox' book Seven Days that Divide the World. Importantly, after discussing this matter personally with Dr. Lennox, RSR can report that he does not agree with our Genesis 1:8 interpretation, so in no way would he publish a biased translation to make our point.) For as Moses wrote, "God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament... And God called the firmament Heaven... Then God said, '...let the dry land appear.'" So whereas atheist video maker Palmer (see above (http://kgov.com/what-is-the-firmament-of-day-2-aka-the-raqia#palmer)) says that "no one before or since Enyart has ever asserted that two firmaments were created in the creation story", Brett can now consider that this Babylonian Enuma Elish creation epic parallels the Hydroplate Theory's understanding of the firmament as referring also, and originally, to the "firm ground below" the heavens. And thus, because God raqa the Earth (http://kgov.com/what-is-the-firmament-of-day-2-aka-the-raqia#raqa), by creating the raqia, that is, the solid rock crust of the Earth, therefore, the etymology of the English word rock can now be traced back much further than the medieval Latin rocca. Not surprisingly then, studying geography we find that root word in the names of various ancient places in the region. For example, in 2015 Raqqa hit the headlines as the capital city of the Islamic terrorist group ISIS. An accurate understanding of Genesis is essential for understanding early history. Thus we can now trace the etymology of our English word rock to that very Epic of Gilgamesh flood account, with Gilgamesh being the king of Uruk (http://www.ancient.eu/uruk/), located in the south of the modern nation with a name that means "deeply rooted, well-watered (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Iraq)", for God placed the water deep under theraqia which explains the name of the ancient place, Iraq.
* Countries, Regions, and Peoples Ending in A and IA: Why do so many place names end in ia? God raqa the raqia to give mankind a place to live on the face of the Earth. In the web's most complete list of place names that end in ia (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KpXPc5QBGQVw3GVIUeAecE5WSBsgXfMhaua4xRfDztA/edit#gid=0), see about 120 significant geographical regions (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1KpXPc5QBGQVw3GVIUeAecE5WSBsgXfMhaua4xRfDztA) that end with -a or -ia. (RSR maintains this list.) Consider also, not unlike the city ofRaqqa and the country of Iraq, the continent of Africa may have a related etymology, and consider also that in Arabic afar means dust, earth. And the names of many lands that do not end in -ia, as Egypt, still give a nod to the suffix when referencing their people, as with Egyptian, Akkadian, Persian, and the more modern Caucasian, with -ian equating also to the -yan as discussed atrsr.org/yan (http://rsr.org/yan) such as Aryan (meaning from the Sun land).

* Seven-Day Week: The worldwide use of a seven-day week results from the creation account. And those seven days are named for the heavenly bodies (Saturn, Sun, Moon, etc.) as God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years." (On a related topic we interviewed Scientific American editor and atheist Michael Shermer (http://kgov.com/michael-shermer) for Real Science Radio (http://realscienceradio.com/). That full show is so much fun to listen to.) "Dr. Shermer, while much of the ancient world was worshiping heavenly bodies, could you at least agree that the Bible is correct on page one, where it states that the Sun is a light?" [Moses was correct also when he taught in Deuteronomy that the planets and stars are not gods and should not be worshiped.] "So can you agree that the Bible is correct in Genesis chapter one, that the Sun is not a god, but a light?" To which Shermer infamously replied, which you can hear in this 73-second excerpt (http://kgov.com/files/audio/bel/2003/ScientificAmEdMikeShermer73secKGOV.mp3) (andtranscript (http://kgov.com/Shermer)) that the sun is not a light. Wow. It's often difficult to have a reasonable discussion with atheists. Also, the worldwide use of blood sacrifices resulted from God commanding Adam and Noah to sacrifice animals prefiguring the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God.
* A Solid Dome Sky Belief Widespread Yet Not Intuitive: As Wikipedia reports, "The notion of the sky as a solid object (rather than just an atmospheric expanse) was widespread among both ancient civilizations and primitive cultures, including ancient Greece, Egypt, China, India, native Americans, Australian Aborigines, and also early Christians. It is probably a universal human trait to perceive the sky as a solid dome." Retrieved 8-27-11 (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Firmament&oldid=409697500). However, with the many varied movements in the heavens of the Sun, Moon, planets, stars, comets, and meteorites, it's not intuitive that so much of the whole world would end up believing that the Earth had a solid-domed sky. Except, of course, if the ancients who populated the world after the global flood were misunderstanding the raqia of Day Two as referring to the heavens instead of to the crust of the earth.
Conclusion: So, the Bible speaks of Earth using the same term, raqia, as for the firmament "of the heavens" (clarified that way in Genesis 1). Yet when the paradise of Eden and God's Kingdom of Heaven on Earth became "filled with violence," mankind began to forget that God made earth as part of His Kingdom of heaven. Thus, what changed was the common use of the termheaven for the Earth

Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Lastdays on October 16, 2017, 03:53:41 PM
Being we have some members here who think highly of their own "interpretations," I thought that it wouldn't be inappropriate to share an "interpretation" by a Protestant... the only difference is, this protestant is far more intelligent in his "interpretation."
This could possibly invite some interesting and colorful conversation...

Actually it's the ball-earthers doing the interpreting or should I say "twisting". Flat-earthers merely take the take the Scriptures at face value and believe with faith in what they say. It also helps to have some common sense (which ball-earthers lack).
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: DZ PLEASE on October 16, 2017, 03:57:34 PM
Right, Private interpretation; you're not Catholic. Check.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: St Ignatius on October 16, 2017, 04:06:16 PM
Right, Private interpretation; you're not Catholic. Check.
What hypocrisy some of these FEer's partake... they somehow are "justified" in doing  EXACTLY what this protestant, that I cited, has done... :-X
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: DZ PLEASE on October 16, 2017, 04:08:23 PM
What hypocrisy some of these FEer's partake... they somehow are "justified" in doing  EXACTLY what this protestant, that I cited, has done... :-X
... because they're...?

" :-X"

Yeah.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Lastdays on October 16, 2017, 04:19:56 PM


Quote
Does your ball earth have pillars, foundations and corners? Does a footstool look like a ball? Can you see a tall tree or all the nations of the earth from the opposite side of a ball?

AES: Is your interpretation of these passages infallible? Have they been declared to mean that the Earth actually looks like this?

Is there a tradition of the ball earth in the Catholic religion? It was quite the opposite (I assure you). As Catholics we are to hold the traditions and interpret the Scriptures literally unless there is PROOF otherwise. No one has demonstrated anything close to proof for a ball earth.



Quote
Sure there is. The firmament can never be below you.

AES: Sure it can.

I guess the way you interpret Scripture (it can). The firmament could be in your living room as well, right? Since you are taking things figuratively, why stop where you do? Just put the firmament in your car while your at it.


Quote
Error is never appropriate. The awesomeness of the creator is only part of what is taught. The fact that Heaven and Hell are actual places that are very near to us is also taught. Also, by rejecting one truth as "figurative", you open the door to reject more truth as "figurative", and eventually you end up with the NASA fabrication.

AES: While these passages may not be figurative in the sense that they are not actually true, you assign a strict interpretation of them that may not be the sense that was intended by the Author. Perhaps these passages are meant to convey a certain message to the inspired writer and not meant to actually mean literal footstools, corners, etc... Pride would be the only reason not to admit this.

I interpret literally, unless there is proof of the contrary. That what the Church commands. That's what makes sense. Your false assumption, that we must know what the author really means is the same excuse the modernists used to undermine the Church. Now nominal Catholics have endless explanations for each doctrine and discipline.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Meg on October 16, 2017, 04:21:06 PM
Actually it's the ball-earthers doing the interpreting or should I say "twisting". Flat-earthers merely take the take the Scriptures at face value and believe with faith in what they say. It also helps to have some common sense (which ball-earthers lack).

Well said. Ball-earthers twist everything, and then accuse flat-earthers of all sorts of things, like being Protestant, etc., because we dare to believe our own eyes, as well as Scripture and Tradition. 

Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: DZ PLEASE on October 16, 2017, 04:23:02 PM
Notice how she tacked on "tradition" there?
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Meg on October 16, 2017, 04:24:28 PM
Notice how she tacked on "tradition" there?

That's right, Dizzy. "Tradition."

How shocking!  :laugh1:

Now you're going to have a hissy fit and call me names. Same ol' same ol'.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Lastdays on October 16, 2017, 04:25:09 PM
Right, Private interpretation; you're not Catholic. Check.

Hey Dizzy, what happened, no crayons today? Triage, motes, beams and don't forget the worcestershire sauce.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: St Ignatius on October 16, 2017, 04:26:38 PM
Your false assumption, that we must know what the author really means is the same excuse the modernists used to undermine the Church. 
Yep... "protestant..."
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: DZ PLEASE on October 16, 2017, 04:26:48 PM
Non-Catholics invoke the Fathers too...
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: DZ PLEASE on October 16, 2017, 04:27:52 PM
Yep... "protestant..."
Hardly a "Trad Catholic" take to be sure...
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: St Ignatius on October 16, 2017, 04:29:38 PM
Notice how she tacked on "tradition" there?
Somebody was just asking about "crayons..." looks like there out now for embellishment! 
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: DZ PLEASE on October 16, 2017, 04:30:24 PM
And you won't?
"I already know. Nyah nyanny boo-boo. Globey heads ain't gotta clue!"

*flicks booger.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Lastdays on October 16, 2017, 04:32:10 PM
Yep... "protestant..."

Yes Ignatius, modernists like Dizzy and yourself are protestant.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: DZ PLEASE on October 16, 2017, 04:37:21 PM
Yes Ignatius, modernists like Dizzy and yourself are protestant.
Knows that words mean things. Knows that Church words mean what the Church means = "modernists".

So, we've learned that "Flatland" and "Bizzarro World" are synonymous.

What's next?

Oh, "wicked burn" man, you really got me good. Almost as good as the time when that 8yo called me a "fag doodie"

No really, I may go cry awhile...
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Lastdays on October 16, 2017, 04:40:00 PM
"I already know. Nyah nyanny boo-boo. Globey heads ain't gotta clue!"

*flicks booger.

The most intelligent thing you've said so far.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: DZ PLEASE on October 16, 2017, 04:41:02 PM
The most intelligent thing you've said so far.
Well, that explains quite a bit...
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Tradplorable on October 16, 2017, 05:32:47 PM
And you won't?
I already KNOW it is important. You don't. 
.
.
.
But you will certainly find out otherwise.
.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: DZ PLEASE on October 16, 2017, 05:35:08 PM
 :laugh1:

Ahhh, pathology.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Tradplorable on October 16, 2017, 05:41:53 PM
Yes Ignatius, modernists like Dizzy and yourself are protestant.
:popcorn:
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: DZ PLEASE on October 16, 2017, 05:44:12 PM
If you think that's something, you could probably find some grass growing.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: happenby on October 16, 2017, 07:38:58 PM
While the science may one day (or already?) prove the Earth is flat, as you say, "Scripture doesn't provide absolute proof". This is all that concerns me. Have at it with all the Science stuff, but the shape of the Earth is not part of Divine Revelation and the denial of the FE is not grounds for condemnation.
Either flat earth is true or round earth is true. You can't have it both ways. One is God's truth, one is a lie. It matters. God doesn't beg, but speaks in parables sometimes. He says quite ominously, those who knock, seek, and ask, shall receive. Conversely...
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Lastdays on October 16, 2017, 08:11:10 PM
I think I understood what dizzy said!

Wow that was the first coherent post I have seen from him in a while!
I was surprised as well. Sadly, as bad as his posts are when they are incoherent, they are even worse when you can understand them.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: happenby on October 17, 2017, 09:54:40 AM
Yep... "protestant..."
Source and slant matter
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Tradplorable on October 17, 2017, 10:05:24 AM
Please explain Job 26:10 on a globe earth model:
.
.
Quote
He hath set bounds about the waters,  
Terminum circumdedit aquis, 
.
Where are the physical boundaries on the seas on a globe? There are none.
.
.
Furthermore, the word used is circumdedit,
.
.
which means to "surround."

.
.
.
The only thing that "surrounds" the seas is the ice wall of Antarctica on the flat earth model:

.
(https://img.purch.com/w/660/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5saXZlc2NpZW5jZS5jb20vaW1hZ2VzL2kvMDAwLzAzMi82NzQvb3JpZ2luYWwvRmxhdF9lYXJ0aC5qcGc=)
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: MyrnaM on October 17, 2017, 10:29:42 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgY8zNZ35uw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgY8zNZ35uw)
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Tradplorable on October 17, 2017, 11:15:45 AM
Your video misrepresents so many aspects of the flat earth model, it is as though whoever made it never bothered to research what FE'ers think at all.
.
.
1. Your video says FE'ers believe that "gravity keeps us from falling off the edge":
.
WRONG.

None of the FE models utilize gravity whatsoever.

.
2. Your video says FE'ers believe "that you will eventually run into a massive ice wall" in Antarctica.
.
.
WRONG.
.
The ice wall is present and immediately visible, you don't have to "go exploring to find it."
.
There's probably more, but I don't need to go any further and watch the other 8.


Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: St Ignatius on October 17, 2017, 11:30:40 AM

Who's going to the first "brave" FEer to refute the "firmament" as being the "Earth's crust?"

http://kgov.com/what-is-the-firmament-of-day-2-aka-the-raqia (http://kgov.com/what-is-the-firmament-of-day-2-aka-the-raqia)

I'd buy this "interpretation" from this protestant long before I'd buy any FEer's argument on this forum thus far...
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: MyrnaM on October 17, 2017, 11:43:52 AM
Your video misrepresents so many aspects of the flat earth model, it is as though whoever made it never bothered to research what FE'ers think at all.
.
.
1. Your video says FE'ers believe that "gravity keeps us from falling off the edge":
.
WRONG.

None of the FE models utilize gravity whatsoever.

.
2. Your video says FE'ers believe "that you will eventually run into a massive ice wall" in Antarctica.
.
.
WRONG.
.
The ice wall is present and immediately visible, you don't have to "go exploring to find it."
.
There's probably more, but I don't need to go any further and watch the other 8.
Just proves the FlatFantasy is like the Protestation believing different theories and interpretations.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Truth is Eternal on October 17, 2017, 11:50:44 AM
Just proves the FlatFantasy is like the Protestation believing different theories and interpretations.
The horizon always appears perfectly flat 360 degrees around the observer regardless of altitude. All amateur balloon, rocket, plane and drone footage show a completely flat horizon over 20+ miles high. Only NASA and other government "space agencies" show curvature in their fake CGI photos/videos.

The horizon always rises to the eye level of the observer as altitude is gained, so you never have to look down to see it. If Earth were in fact a globe, no matter how large, as you ascended the horizon would stay fixed and the observer / camera would have to tilt looking down further and further to see it.

The natural physics of water is to find and maintain its level. If Earth were a giant sphere tilted, wobbling and hurdling through infinite space then truly flat, consistently level surfaces would not exist here. But since Earth is in fact an extended flat plane, this fundamental physical property of fluids finding and remaining level is consistent with experience and common sense.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: DZ PLEASE on October 17, 2017, 12:13:36 PM
Why isn't the Cyclops' eye flat? Shouldn't they have called it something else? Why didn't they?
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Lastdays on October 17, 2017, 01:04:40 PM
Please explain Job 26:10 on a globe earth model:
.
..
Where are the physical boundaries on the seas on a globe? There are none.
.
.
Furthermore, the word used is circumdedit,
.
.
which means to "surround."

.
.
.
The only thing that "surrounds" the seas is the ice wall of Antarctica on the flat earth model:

.
(https://img.purch.com/w/660/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5saXZlc2NpZW5jZS5jb20vaW1hZ2VzL2kvMDAwLzAzMi82NzQvb3JpZ2luYWwvRmxhdF9lYXJ0aC5qcGc=)

Excellent.

An alternative definition would be to enclose or encircle.

Verb
circumdō (present infinitive circumdare (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/circumdare#Latin), perfect active circumdedī (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/circumdedi#Latin), supine circumdatum (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/circumdatum#Latin)); first conjugation (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Latin_first_conjugation), irregular (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/irregular#English)

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/circumdo#Latin
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: hismajesty on October 17, 2017, 02:33:25 PM
Ignatius,
Have you read this Catholic encyclopedia entry?

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06079b.htm
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: St Ignatius on October 17, 2017, 02:36:24 PM
Ignatius,
Have you read this Catholic encyclopedia entry?

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06079b.htm
I have...
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: hismajesty on October 17, 2017, 02:40:02 PM
Is there a single Church Father who proposes this idea of the confusion between the crust and the firmament?
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Tradplorable on October 17, 2017, 02:43:58 PM
I see none of the globetards has an explanation for Job 26:10.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: St Ignatius on October 17, 2017, 02:45:44 PM
Is there a single Church Father who proposes this idea of the confusion between the crust and the firmament?
Please be specific on "who's" confused,  and about "what..."
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Meg on October 17, 2017, 03:17:58 PM
And now for a little comic relief. I saw this video on the Angelqueen blog. It's a youtube video in which the drummer for an Asian band is just hilarious. I think that Dizzy will like it.

I hope the link works:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=a9kPfelTEds
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: DZ PLEASE on October 17, 2017, 03:25:43 PM
I see none of the globetards has an explanation for Job 26:10.
Right, that must be it. 

It's that razor sharp, Aristotelian mind of yours that really keeps us on our toes. 

You got us, you win. 

The world is flat. 

There, how's that?
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Tradplorable on October 17, 2017, 05:17:07 PM
 

You got us, you win.

The world is flat.

There, how's that?
alllll righty, then.
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/5f/89/9d/5f899d7b28bb9f3043549e6842f3f947--ace-ventura-pet-detective-jim-carey.jpg)
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Neil Obstat on October 19, 2017, 03:29:34 PM
Please explain Job 26:10 on a globe earth model:
..."He hath set bounds about the waters, till light and darkness come to an end."
.
This refers to God's promise that no more shall the waters of the deep rise to engulf the dry land as they did in the great Flood of Noah.
.
The world shall not be destroyed by a flood ever again, and the limits of the seas are established for all time, until the end of days ("till light and darkness come to an end"), which is to say, until the end of the world (no more darkness, Apoc. xxii. 5) --- when as we can see elsewhere that the sea shall be no more (Apoc. xxi. 1).
.
The spherical earth has boundaries for seas defined by "mean sea level" which is affected by the strength of gravity in the local area under consideration. This strength of gravity not only changes from place to place over the earth's surface, it also changes over time in specific places. For example, ancient cities have been discovered under water in areas that used to be seaports but are now submerged partly due to changing gravitational forces in the local area. When gravity is greater in a particular place than it is elsewhere (in a certain direction and distance), the waters of the ocean, if any, accrue there proportionally according to the increased gravitational attraction. There are places in the world where water would seem to flow "uphill" if one only goes by what would be expected due to line of sight levels, but due to local changes in gravitational forces, the water is pulled to a so-called higher position on the earth's surface. This has already been explained in another thread, which you have for whatever reason chosen not to read.
.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Tradplorable on October 19, 2017, 07:58:13 PM
..."He hath set bounds about the waters, till light and darkness come to an end."
.
This refers to God's promise that no more shall the waters of the deep rise to engulf the dry land as they did in the great Flood of Noah.
.
The world shall not be destroyed by a flood ever again, and the limits of the seas are established for all time, until the end of days ("till light and darkness come to an end"), which is to say, until the end of the world (no more darkness, Apoc. xxii. 5) --- when as we can see elsewhere that the sea shall be no more (Apoc. xxi. 1).
.
The spherical earth has boundaries for seas defined by "mean sea level" which is affected by the strength of gravity in the local area under consideration. This strength of gravity not only changes from place to place over the earth's surface, it also changes over time in specific places. For example, ancient cities have been discovered under water in areas that used to be seaports but are now submerged partly due to changing gravitational forces in the local area. When gravity is greater in a particular place than it is elsewhere (in a certain direction and distance), the waters of the ocean, if any, accrue there proportionally according to the increased gravitational attraction. There are places in the world where water would seem to flow "uphill" if one only goes by what would be expected due to line of sight levels, but due to local changes in gravitational forces, the water is pulled to a so-called higher position on the earth's surface. This has already been explained in another thread, which you have for whatever reason chosen not to read.
.
What a load of total bullcrap.
.
.
There was an article on Yahoo just the other day about how there is no measurable variation in gravity, which they had EXPECTED to find. Oops. Because there is NO GRAVITY.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Neil Obstat on October 19, 2017, 10:51:37 PM
What a load of total bullcrap.
.
.
There was an article on Yahoo just the other day about how there is no measurable variation in gravity, which they had EXPECTED to find. Oops. Because there is NO GRAVITY.
.
What a load of total fiction. 
.
Is that the best you can do, Mr. Blindness?
.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Mithrandylan on October 22, 2017, 09:23:29 AM
In the absence of an ex Cathedra statement, Catholics are to hold to tradition and a literal interpretation of the Scriptures, unless reason suggests otherwise. The NASA cartoon ball is not traditional and it is unreasonable to any sane person.
.
Which scriptural passage or ex cathedra statement establishes this rule of faith?
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Lastdays on October 22, 2017, 11:32:29 AM
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Which scriptural passage or ex cathedra statement establishes this rule of faith?

Therefore brethren stand: and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether it be by word, or by our epistle (2 Thes. 2:15)


"The opinion of the Fathers is also of very great weight when they treat of these matters in their capacity of doctors, unofficially; not only because they excel in their knowledge of revealed doctrine and in their acquaintance with many things which are useful in understanding the apostolic Books, but because they are men of eminent sanctity and of ardent zeal for the truth, on whom God has bestowed a more ample measure of His light. Wherefore the expositor should make it his duty to follow their footsteps with all reverence, and to use their labors with intelligent appreciation. But he must not on that account consider that it is forbidden, when just cause exists, to push inquiry and exposition beyond what the Fathers have done; provided he carefully observes the rule so wisely laid down by St. Augustine — not to depart from the literal and obvious sense, except only where reason makes it untenable or necessity requires; a rule to which it is the more necessary to adhere strictly in these times, when the thirst for novelty and unrestrained freedom of thought make the danger of error most real and proximate." (Pope Leo XIII-Providentissimus Deus)
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: DZ PLEASE on October 22, 2017, 01:03:24 PM
Tripping your own ambush is embarrassing, at least hopefully in this instance.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Mithrandylan on October 22, 2017, 07:24:49 PM
I see nothing in that passage about ex cathedra statements. 

Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Lastdays on October 22, 2017, 08:00:27 PM
I see nothing in that passage about ex cathedra statements.
You never said you wanted a passage about ex Cathedra statements. If so, I would have quoted Vatican I. You said you wanted a Scriptural passage or an ex Cathedra statement that establishes the rule of faith (that we are to hold the traditions and interpret the Scriptures literally unless reason or necessity suggests otherwise) as Catholics. I gave you the Scriptural passage regarding tradition and I also quoted Pope Leo XIII calling the literal interpretation of Scripture (unless reason or necessity suggests otherwise) "a rule".
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Mithrandylan on October 22, 2017, 08:15:45 PM
You never said you wanted a passage about ex Cathedra statements. If so, I would have quoted Vatican I. You said you wanted a Scriptural passage or an ex Cathedra statement that establishes the rule of faith (that we are to hold the traditions and interpret the Scriptures literally unless reason or necessity suggests otherwise) as Catholics. I gave you the Scriptural passage regarding tradition and I also quoted Pope Leo XIII calling the literal interpretation of Scripture (unless reason or necessity suggests otherwise) "a rule".
The rule of faith you are promoting is that in lieu of an ex cathedra statement, etc. That's what you need to prove. You need to provide an infallible source which establishes this rule of faith, otherwise, what good is it?
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In fairness you ought to be able to point to an ex cathedra statement to prove your rule of faith, but I'm letting you off the hook there. 
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Plus, the literal sense of the scripture you posted precludes ex cathedra statements (unless you heard one-- not sure how old you are, but I suppose it's possible), and anything St Paul didn't write. Oops...
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Lastdays on October 22, 2017, 09:14:45 PM
The rule of faith you are promoting is that in lieu of an ex cathedra statement, etc. That's what you need to prove. You need to provide an infallible source which establishes this rule of faith, otherwise, what good is it?
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You asked for a Scriptural passage or an ex Cathedra statement. I gave you a Scriptural passage, did I not? Therefore, if you want something specifically, then ask properly.

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In fairness you ought to be able to point to an ex cathedra statement to prove your rule of faith, but I'm letting you off the hook there.
In fairness, an ex Cathedra statement is not required to prove Catholic teaching. How do you think heretics were condemned in the early Church? The Ordinary Universal Magisterium is also infallible. Also, just because a teaching is not ex Cathedra does not mean it does not require adherence from the faithful...

"Nor must it be thought that what is expounded in Encyclical Letters does not of itself demand consent, since in writing such Letters the Popes do not exercise the supreme power of their Teaching Authority. For these matters are taught with the ordinary teaching authority, of which it is true to say: “He who heareth you, heareth me”; and generally what is expounded and inculcated in Encyclical Letters already for other reasons appertains to Catholic doctrine." (Humani Generis -Pius XII)

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Plus, the literal sense of the scripture you posted precludes ex cathedra statements...
How so?
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Mithrandylan on October 22, 2017, 09:28:48 PM
Lastdays,

You said that if there is not an ex cathedra statement, Catholics learn from tradition and the literal sense of scripture. 

Rule of faith, then = ex cathedra statements>Tradition/scripture. 

But where IN that rule of faith (so proposed) is the rule of faith defined?  In other words, "where does it say that in lieu of an ex cathedra definition we must next follow tradition and scripture's literal sense?"

I know about the ordinary magisterium. You didn't include it in your rule of faith.

Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Lastdays on October 22, 2017, 09:54:11 PM
Lastdays,

You said that if there is not an ex cathedra statement, Catholics learn from tradition and the literal sense of scripture.

So far, so good. Although I said literal sense of Scripture (unless reason or necessity suggests otherwise).

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Rule of faith, then = ex cathedra statements>Tradition/scripture.

The Extraordinary Magisterium and Universal Ordinary Magisterium (Tradition) are both infallible, although ex Cathedra statements tend to be clearer. They could never be contrary to one another. We must also adhere even to the Ordinary Magisterium as Pius XII taught. The literal interpretation of Scripture (unless reason or necessity suggests otherwise) is at the very least part of the Ordinary Magisterium.

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But where IN that rule of faith (so proposed) is the rule of faith defined?  In other words, "where does it say that in lieu of an ex cathedra definition we must next follow tradition and scripture's literal sense?"

IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE DEFINED. You're very demand is erroneous. The Church says that Catholic must adhere even to the Ordinary Magisterium.

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I know about the ordinary magisterium. You didn't include it in your rule of faith.

If you know about the ordinary magisterium, then why do you question it, by demanding an ex Cathedra definition? When I said that we must hold the traditions and interpret scripture literally (unless reason or necessity suggests otherwise), I gave you two examples from the ordinary magisterium. Therefore I did include it (by default).
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Mithrandylan on October 22, 2017, 10:31:30 PM
I am responding to what you said, right "out of the gate", and you made no mention of the ordinary magisterium. 
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If you are now incorporating it into your rule of faith, good. 
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So the ordinary magisterium is "just as good" as the extraordinary magisterium. Good. Your assertion is that flat earth belongs to the ordinary magisterium, then? 
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Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Mithrandylan on October 22, 2017, 11:09:42 PM
Do note that Tradition =/= the ordinary magisterium. 
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Lastdays on October 23, 2017, 09:11:28 AM
I am responding to what you said, right "out of the gate", and you made no mention of the ordinary magisterium.

Fair enough.

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If you are now incorporating it into your rule of faith, good.

I didn't really mean to give an exhaustive explanation of the rule of faith.

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So the ordinary magisterium is "just as good" as the extraordinary magisterium. Good.

Catholics are not free to dismiss something clearly taught by the Ordinary Magisterium to the Universal Church in favor of their own opinion. That is all I am saying.

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Your assertion is that flat earth belongs to the ordinary magisterium, then?

Indirectly, through a literal interpretation of Scripture.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Lastdays on October 23, 2017, 09:18:05 AM
Do note that Tradition =/= the ordinary magisterium.

If I ever equated the two it was unintentional. I don't think I did. I merely noted that the Ordinary Magisterium has taught that we must hold the Traditions and interpret the Scriptures literally (unless reason or necessity suggests otherwise).
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Lastdays on October 23, 2017, 09:20:58 AM
Indirectly, through a literal interpretation of Scripture.

...and Tradition.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Lastdays on October 25, 2017, 08:17:31 AM
The Freemasonic NASA cartoon ball lacks pillars, foundations, a solid firmament with waters above it, flood gates, corners etc. It also has a solid core in the middle which we know is not biblical. Hmm, I wonder why they would remove Purgatory and Hell and put a solid core in the middle? Just a coincidence, right people? Dan 4:8 and Mat 4:8 are not even possible on a ball. The ball is dead. :incense: Say night, night to the ball earth.
 
Gen 1:6-8  God also said: Be a firmament made amidst the waters: and let it divide between waters and waters. And God made a firmament, and divided the waters that were under the firmament, from those that were above the firmament. And it was so done. And God called the firmament, Heaven: and there was evening & morning that made the second day.

Gen 7:11  In the six hundred year of the life of Noe, in the second month, in the seventeenth day of the month, all the fountains of the great depth were broken up, and the flood-gates of Heaven were opened:

Gen 8:2  And the fountains of the depth, and the flood-gates of Heaven, were shut up: and the rain from Heaven was stayed.

1 Kgs 2:8  He raiseth the needy man from the dust, and from the dung he lifteth up the poor: that he may sit with Princes, and hold the throne of glory. For the poles of the earth are our Lords, and upon them he hath set the world.
 
2 Kgs 22:16  And the overflowings of the sea appeared, and the foundations of the world were discovered at the rebuking of our Lord, at the breathing of the spirit of his fury.

Ps 74:4  The earth is melted, and all that dwell in it: I have confirmed the pillars thereof.

Ps 103:2-3  Thou hast put on confession and beauty: being clothed with light as with a garment: Stretching out the Heaven as a skin: which coverest the higher parts thereof with waters.

Prov 8:28-29  When he established the firmament above, and poised the fountains of waters: when he compassed the sea with her limits, and set a law to the waters that they should not pass their bounds: when he hanged the foundations of the earth

Dan 4:8 A great tree, and strong: and the height thereof touching the Heaven: the sight thereof was even to the ends of all the earth.

Is 40:22  He that sitteth upon the compass of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts: he that stretcheth out the heavens as nothing, and spreadeth them as a tent to dwell in.

Is 43:6  I will say to the North: give: and to the South, Hinder not: bring my sons from a far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth.

Is 66:1  Thus saith our Lord: Heaven is my seat, and the earth my foot stool: what is this house that you will build to me? and what is this place of my rest?

Ezk 1:26  And  above the firmament, that hung over their head, as it were the form of the sapphire stone the similitude of a throne, and upon the similitude of the throne, a similitude as it were the shape of a man above.

Job 9:6  He that removeth the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof are shaken.

Job 37:18  Thou perhaps madst the heavens with him, which are most sound, cast as it were of brass.

Job 38:4-6  Where wast thou when I laid  the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. Who set the measures thereof, if thou know? or who stretched out the line upon it? upon what are the foundations thereof grounded? or who let down the corner stone thereof,

Job 38:13  And didst thou hold the extremities of the earth shaking them, and hast thou shaken the impious out of it?

Mat 4:8 Again the Devil took him up into a very high mountain: and he shewed him all the Kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them,


Apoc 7:1  After these things I saw four Angels standing upon the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth that they should not blow upon the land, nor upon the sea, nor on any tree.

Apoc 20:7  And when the thousand years shall be consummate, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go forth, and seduce the nations that are upon the four corners of the earth, Gog, and Magog, and shall gather them into battle, the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
 
 
 

Ps 148:1-5  Allelulia. Praise ye our Lord from the heavens: praise ye him in the high places. Praise ye him all his Angels: praise ye him his hosts: Praise ye him sun and Moon: praise him all ye stars, and light. Praise him ye heavens of heavens: and the waters that are above the heavens, let them praise the name of our Lord. Because he said, and they were made: he commanded, and they were created.

Mark 1:10  And forthwith coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit as a dove descending, and remaining on him.

Acts 7:56  And he said, Behold I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.


(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/22/01/1a/22011a2f59969a5adb2ef63a27ae8617.jpg)
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Tradplorable on October 25, 2017, 10:00:53 AM
https://youtu.be/sdtKCpyvCo0
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: RoughAshlar on October 25, 2017, 12:42:33 PM
https://youtu.be/sdtKCpyvCo0

1) So what you are saying is that everything in space is a sphere except us?
2) How does this model allow phases of the moon.  Moon phases in this model would complete a cycle every 24 hours if that was the case.
3) How does this model allow for seasons
4) How do we not have maps from the Vatican/Catholic cartographers from 500 years ago to present that have this giant encompassing ice wall.
5) How do we not have photos of an all encompassing giant wall of ice.
6) How do you explain the Antarctic tourism?
Antarctic-Logistics (https://antarctic-logistics.com/)
Antarctic Cruise (https://www.hurtigruten.us)
Flights (http://www.antarcticaflights.com.au/)
7) How do flights from Argentina to Australia only take 12.5 hours, but flights from San Paulo to Johannesburg take 8.5....Or why does it take 22 hours to fly from London to Perth. The flight times are not proportionate to your model.
8. How can you selectively disregard the some of the laws of physics or overall science just to make your model fit.



Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Lastdays on December 06, 2017, 02:50:02 PM
1) So what you are saying is that everything in space is a sphere except us?

I never said everything in space was a sphere. Even if it was, it would not prove anything for you.

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2) How does this model allow phases of the moon.  Moon phases in this model would complete a cycle every 24 hours if that was the case.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLxCKhN2S9I


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3) How does this model allow for seasons

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R52_PdZlSq8


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4) How do we not have maps from the Vatican/Catholic cartographers from 500 years ago to present that have this giant encompassing ice wall.

5) How do we not have photos of an all encompassing giant wall of ice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgit6h60IUw&list=PLMtoJ8g0fGmZh7oFKrD3Nc_D0ACqcvIq4


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6) How do you explain the Antarctic tourism?
Antarctic-Logistics (https://antarctic-logistics.com/)
Antarctic Cruise (https://www.hurtigruten.us)
Flights (http://www.antarcticaflights.com.au/)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsnvrCoE2JA

 (http://www.antarcticaflights.com.au/)
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7) How do flights from Argentina to Australia only take 12.5 hours, but flights from San Paulo to Johannesburg take 8.5....Or why does it take 22 hours to fly from London to Perth. The flight times are not proportionate to your model.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzmjDFv23Ng


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtYWkTEDgjM


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8. How can you selectively disregard the some of the laws of physics or overall science just to make your model fit.

That's pretty hilarious. You believe tons of water can stick to a sphere and you tell me I disregard the laws of physics? :laugh2:


Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Ladislaus on December 06, 2017, 03:30:14 PM
That's pretty hilarious. You believe tons of water can stick to a sphere and you tell me I disregard the laws of physics? :laugh2:



Yeah, I have a bit of a problem with that one myself.  Now, they tell us it's due to gravity.  But I'd love to see a demonstration in a vaccum where you take an object like a round stone and pour some water on it to see if it'll stick there, making the mass of the stone and the quantity of water the scale equivalent of what you found on earth.  Now make that ball spin around on its axis.  Now make that ball spin around some other object (the equivalent of the sun) ... and I'd LOVE to see the water stay put on the surface of the rock ... much less sit still like many bodies of water do on earth.  At the very least this all points to a motionless earth.  Now what force could cause water to stick on the surface of a motionless sphere?  Not sure but I have a hard time believing that gravity would do that.  I also suspect that the vacuum of space would suck the atmosphere right off the planet because it would be a much stronger force than gravity would be.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Ladislaus on December 06, 2017, 03:36:52 PM
I just watched the emergency landings one.  Fascinating ... as Spock would say.  I'll watch more later.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: GJC on December 06, 2017, 03:51:20 PM
I just watched the emergency landings one.  Fascinating ... as Spock would say.  I'll watch more later.
Fascinating as in unexpected Mr. Spock?
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Lastdays on December 06, 2017, 08:57:40 PM
Now what force could cause water to stick on the surface of a motionless sphere?  Not sure but I have a hard time believing that gravity would do that. 

Gravity is nothing but a lie. It's all about density and weight. Millions of tons of water cannot be sucked into the earth, while a small piece of fuzz can float effortlessly over the earth without issue.

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSOk9ASxperbhVkmMqeaLSAlfKk-ZUDXG2lL5vb_ewfS5JuRUT6)
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Lastdays on December 06, 2017, 09:03:17 PM
I just watched the emergency landings one.  Fascinating ... as Spock would say.

Yeah, we're being lied to.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: noOneImportant on December 06, 2017, 10:05:53 PM
Gravity is nothing but a lie. It's all about density and weight. Millions of tons of water cannot be sucked into the earth, while a small piece of fuzz can float effortlessly over the earth without issue.


Required reading before making stupid comments about the rate at which things fall. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Density)
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Kreuzritter on December 07, 2017, 06:09:42 AM
Gravity is nothing but a lie. It's all about density and weight. Millions of tons of water cannot be sucked into the earth,


Why do objects in vaccuum enclosures still fall?
Define "weight".

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while a small piece of fuzz can float effortlessly over the earth without issue.

Why does this piece of fuzz fall in a vaccuum?
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Kreuzritter on December 07, 2017, 06:15:06 AM
How is it that Newton's theory of gravitational force, being a "lie", provides precise predictions of the motions of celestial objects as well as the motion of objects on Earth, e.g. free fall or projectile motion, and also of statics upon which enginerring of structures depends?

Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: happenby on December 07, 2017, 09:01:09 AM
Why do objects in vaccuum enclosures still fall?
Define "weight".

Why does this piece of fuzz fall in a vaccuum?
Weight is dependent on density, not gravity.

https://whyfiles.org/071questions/5.html
Why does a can of Coke sink while a can of Diet Coke floats?
[size=+1]Floating occurs because floating objects displace, or push aside, a certain amount of liquid. If an object displaces more than its weight in liquid, it floats; otherwise it sinks.[/size]
[size=+1]Density (the mass per unit of volume) determines how much liquid is displaced. Density is usually compared to water, which is assigned a density of 1. Materials sink if (like regular Coke) they are more dense than water, while less-dense materials, like Diet Coke, float.[/size]
(https://whyfiles.org/071questions/images/floating.jpg)[size=-1]Actual photograph of the experiment as performed in the Why Files lab! Note the Diet Coke breaking the surface on the left.[/size]
[size=+1]We didn't ask the Coca Cola Co. for their recipe, but we assume that it's the sugar in real Coke that makes it dense enough to sink. We also assume that it's the artificial sweetener in that diet version that's less dense, allowing those cans to float.[/size]
Did you know
[size=+1]If you measure the volume of water displaced by a floating object and compute the weight of that water, it equals the weight of the object.[/size]
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Ladislaus on December 07, 2017, 09:18:08 AM
How is it that Newton's theory of gravitational force, being a "lie", provides precise predictions of the motions of celestial objects as well as the motion of objects on Earth, e.g. free fall or projectile motion, and also of statics upon which enginerring of structures depends?

Certainly the equations work.  Nobody really understands what it is though.  In any case, I don't buy that the oceans would sit still on the earth when it's moving as quickly as they claim.  Unrelated to flat earth, but rather to motionless earth.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Ladislaus on December 07, 2017, 09:25:29 AM
Certainly the equations work.  Nobody really understands what it is though.  In any case, I don't buy that the oceans would sit still on the earth when it's moving as quickly as they claim.  Unrelated to flat earth, but rather to motionless earth.

If I put water on a bowling ball in a vacuum, would it stay there, especially when the ball started rotating and then moving?  I don't believe that it would, that the force of gravity would be sufficient to overcome both the centrifugal and external gravitational forces at work.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: happenby on December 07, 2017, 09:28:12 AM
Certainly the equations work.  Nobody really understands what it is though.  In any case, I don't buy that the oceans would sit still on the earth when it's moving as quickly as they claim.  Unrelated to flat earth, but rather to motionless earth.
They've had five hundred years to work out the math to make sure it works well enough to pass. But they can't fix things like water surface always being level or water sticking to the outside of a ball, so they divert with pendulums, make up new laws like gravity, and point to the movement of the stars and say, "look over here" or "look over there", in order to change the subject. The globe doesn't work in the real world.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Lastdays on December 07, 2017, 10:47:57 AM

Required reading before making stupid comments about the rate at which things fall. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Density)

Please spare me any Wikipedia or NASA articles or an other pagan opinions. I do not go to satan to learn God's truth. Idiot.
Title: Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
Post by: Lastdays on December 07, 2017, 10:50:11 AM
How is it that Newton's theory of gravitational force, being a "lie", provides precise predictions of the motions of celestial objects as well as the motion of objects on Earth, e.g. free fall or projectile motion, and also of statics upon which enginerring of structures depends?

Like I really give a crap about what Newton thinks? What do the Scriptures say? I could care less what some pagan thinks about what God has already revealed.