Author Topic: God's Flat Earth in Scripture  (Read 2286 times)

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Offline DZ PLEASE

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Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
« Reply #75 on: October 17, 2017, 03:25:43 PM »
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  • I see none of the globetards has an explanation for Job 26:10.
    Right, that must be it. 

    It's that razor sharp, Aristotelian mind of yours that really keeps us on our toes. 

    You got us, you win. 

    The world is flat. 

    There, how's that?
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline Tradplorable

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    Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
    « Reply #76 on: October 17, 2017, 05:17:07 PM »
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  •  

    You got us, you win.

    The world is flat.

    There, how's that?
    alllll righty, then.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
    « Reply #77 on: October 19, 2017, 03:29:34 PM »
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  • Please explain Job 26:10 on a globe earth model:
    ..."He hath set bounds about the waters, till light and darkness come to an end."
    .
    This refers to God's promise that no more shall the waters of the deep rise to engulf the dry land as they did in the great Flood of Noah.
    .
    The world shall not be destroyed by a flood ever again, and the limits of the seas are established for all time, until the end of days ("till light and darkness come to an end"), which is to say, until the end of the world (no more darkness, Apoc. xxii. 5) --- when as we can see elsewhere that the sea shall be no more (Apoc. xxi. 1).
    .
    The spherical earth has boundaries for seas defined by "mean sea level" which is affected by the strength of gravity in the local area under consideration. This strength of gravity not only changes from place to place over the earth's surface, it also changes over time in specific places. For example, ancient cities have been discovered under water in areas that used to be seaports but are now submerged partly due to changing gravitational forces in the local area. When gravity is greater in a particular place than it is elsewhere (in a certain direction and distance), the waters of the ocean, if any, accrue there proportionally according to the increased gravitational attraction. There are places in the world where water would seem to flow "uphill" if one only goes by what would be expected due to line of sight levels, but due to local changes in gravitational forces, the water is pulled to a so-called higher position on the earth's surface. This has already been explained in another thread, which you have for whatever reason chosen not to read.
    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Tradplorable

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    Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
    « Reply #78 on: October 19, 2017, 07:58:13 PM »
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  • ..."He hath set bounds about the waters, till light and darkness come to an end."
    .
    This refers to God's promise that no more shall the waters of the deep rise to engulf the dry land as they did in the great Flood of Noah.
    .
    The world shall not be destroyed by a flood ever again, and the limits of the seas are established for all time, until the end of days ("till light and darkness come to an end"), which is to say, until the end of the world (no more darkness, Apoc. xxii. 5) --- when as we can see elsewhere that the sea shall be no more (Apoc. xxi. 1).
    .
    The spherical earth has boundaries for seas defined by "mean sea level" which is affected by the strength of gravity in the local area under consideration. This strength of gravity not only changes from place to place over the earth's surface, it also changes over time in specific places. For example, ancient cities have been discovered under water in areas that used to be seaports but are now submerged partly due to changing gravitational forces in the local area. When gravity is greater in a particular place than it is elsewhere (in a certain direction and distance), the waters of the ocean, if any, accrue there proportionally according to the increased gravitational attraction. There are places in the world where water would seem to flow "uphill" if one only goes by what would be expected due to line of sight levels, but due to local changes in gravitational forces, the water is pulled to a so-called higher position on the earth's surface. This has already been explained in another thread, which you have for whatever reason chosen not to read.
    .
    What a load of total bullcrap.
    .
    .
    There was an article on Yahoo just the other day about how there is no measurable variation in gravity, which they had EXPECTED to find. Oops. Because there is NO GRAVITY.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
    « Reply #79 on: October 19, 2017, 10:51:37 PM »
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  • What a load of total bullcrap.
    .
    .
    There was an article on Yahoo just the other day about how there is no measurable variation in gravity, which they had EXPECTED to find. Oops. Because there is NO GRAVITY.
    .
    What a load of total fiction. 
    .
    Is that the best you can do, Mr. Blindness?
    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
    « Reply #80 on: October 22, 2017, 09:23:29 AM »
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  • In the absence of an ex Cathedra statement, Catholics are to hold to tradition and a literal interpretation of the Scriptures, unless reason suggests otherwise. The NASA cartoon ball is not traditional and it is unreasonable to any sane person.
    .
    Which scriptural passage or ex cathedra statement establishes this rule of faith?
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    Offline Lastdays

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    Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
    « Reply #81 on: October 22, 2017, 11:32:29 AM »
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  • .
    Which scriptural passage or ex cathedra statement establishes this rule of faith?

    Therefore brethren stand: and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether it be by word, or by our epistle (2 Thes. 2:15)


    "The opinion of the Fathers is also of very great weight when they treat of these matters in their capacity of doctors, unofficially; not only because they excel in their knowledge of revealed doctrine and in their acquaintance with many things which are useful in understanding the apostolic Books, but because they are men of eminent sanctity and of ardent zeal for the truth, on whom God has bestowed a more ample measure of His light. Wherefore the expositor should make it his duty to follow their footsteps with all reverence, and to use their labors with intelligent appreciation. But he must not on that account consider that it is forbidden, when just cause exists, to push inquiry and exposition beyond what the Fathers have done; provided he carefully observes the rule so wisely laid down by St. Augustine — not to depart from the literal and obvious sense, except only where reason makes it untenable or necessity requires; a rule to which it is the more necessary to adhere strictly in these times, when the thirst for novelty and unrestrained freedom of thought make the danger of error most real and proximate." (Pope Leo XIII-Providentissimus Deus)
    Catholic Encyclopedia – Heresy, 1913: The Pope himself, if notoriously guilty of heresy, would cease to be Pope because he would cease to be a member of the Church.

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
    « Reply #82 on: October 22, 2017, 01:03:24 PM »
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  • Tripping your own ambush is embarrassing, at least hopefully in this instance.
    "Lord, have mercy".


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
    « Reply #83 on: October 22, 2017, 07:24:49 PM »
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  • I see nothing in that passage about ex cathedra statements. 

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    Offline Lastdays

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    Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
    « Reply #84 on: October 22, 2017, 08:00:27 PM »
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  • I see nothing in that passage about ex cathedra statements.
    You never said you wanted a passage about ex Cathedra statements. If so, I would have quoted Vatican I. You said you wanted a Scriptural passage or an ex Cathedra statement that establishes the rule of faith (that we are to hold the traditions and interpret the Scriptures literally unless reason or necessity suggests otherwise) as Catholics. I gave you the Scriptural passage regarding tradition and I also quoted Pope Leo XIII calling the literal interpretation of Scripture (unless reason or necessity suggests otherwise) "a rule".
    Catholic Encyclopedia – Heresy, 1913: The Pope himself, if notoriously guilty of heresy, would cease to be Pope because he would cease to be a member of the Church.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
    « Reply #85 on: October 22, 2017, 08:15:45 PM »
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  • You never said you wanted a passage about ex Cathedra statements. If so, I would have quoted Vatican I. You said you wanted a Scriptural passage or an ex Cathedra statement that establishes the rule of faith (that we are to hold the traditions and interpret the Scriptures literally unless reason or necessity suggests otherwise) as Catholics. I gave you the Scriptural passage regarding tradition and I also quoted Pope Leo XIII calling the literal interpretation of Scripture (unless reason or necessity suggests otherwise) "a rule".
    The rule of faith you are promoting is that in lieu of an ex cathedra statement, etc. That's what you need to prove. You need to provide an infallible source which establishes this rule of faith, otherwise, what good is it?
    .
    In fairness you ought to be able to point to an ex cathedra statement to prove your rule of faith, but I'm letting you off the hook there. 
    .
    Plus, the literal sense of the scripture you posted precludes ex cathedra statements (unless you heard one-- not sure how old you are, but I suppose it's possible), and anything St Paul didn't write. Oops...
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    Offline Lastdays

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    Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
    « Reply #86 on: October 22, 2017, 09:14:45 PM »
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  • The rule of faith you are promoting is that in lieu of an ex cathedra statement, etc. That's what you need to prove. You need to provide an infallible source which establishes this rule of faith, otherwise, what good is it?
    .
    You asked for a Scriptural passage or an ex Cathedra statement. I gave you a Scriptural passage, did I not? Therefore, if you want something specifically, then ask properly.

    Quote
    In fairness you ought to be able to point to an ex cathedra statement to prove your rule of faith, but I'm letting you off the hook there.
    In fairness, an ex Cathedra statement is not required to prove Catholic teaching. How do you think heretics were condemned in the early Church? The Ordinary Universal Magisterium is also infallible. Also, just because a teaching is not ex Cathedra does not mean it does not require adherence from the faithful...

    "Nor must it be thought that what is expounded in Encyclical Letters does not of itself demand consent, since in writing such Letters the Popes do not exercise the supreme power of their Teaching Authority. For these matters are taught with the ordinary teaching authority, of which it is true to say: “He who heareth you, heareth me”; and generally what is expounded and inculcated in Encyclical Letters already for other reasons appertains to Catholic doctrine." (Humani Generis -Pius XII)

    Quote
    Plus, the literal sense of the scripture you posted precludes ex cathedra statements...
    How so?
    Catholic Encyclopedia – Heresy, 1913: The Pope himself, if notoriously guilty of heresy, would cease to be Pope because he would cease to be a member of the Church.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
    « Reply #87 on: October 22, 2017, 09:28:48 PM »
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  • Lastdays,

    You said that if there is not an ex cathedra statement, Catholics learn from tradition and the literal sense of scripture. 

    Rule of faith, then = ex cathedra statements>Tradition/scripture. 

    But where IN that rule of faith (so proposed) is the rule of faith defined?  In other words, "where does it say that in lieu of an ex cathedra definition we must next follow tradition and scripture's literal sense?"

    I know about the ordinary magisterium. You didn't include it in your rule of faith.

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    Offline Lastdays

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    Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
    « Reply #88 on: October 22, 2017, 09:54:11 PM »
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  • Lastdays,

    You said that if there is not an ex cathedra statement, Catholics learn from tradition and the literal sense of scripture.

    So far, so good. Although I said literal sense of Scripture (unless reason or necessity suggests otherwise).

    Quote
    Rule of faith, then = ex cathedra statements>Tradition/scripture.

    The Extraordinary Magisterium and Universal Ordinary Magisterium (Tradition) are both infallible, although ex Cathedra statements tend to be clearer. They could never be contrary to one another. We must also adhere even to the Ordinary Magisterium as Pius XII taught. The literal interpretation of Scripture (unless reason or necessity suggests otherwise) is at the very least part of the Ordinary Magisterium.

    Quote
    But where IN that rule of faith (so proposed) is the rule of faith defined?  In other words, "where does it say that in lieu of an ex cathedra definition we must next follow tradition and scripture's literal sense?"

    IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE DEFINED. You're very demand is erroneous. The Church says that Catholic must adhere even to the Ordinary Magisterium.

    Quote
    I know about the ordinary magisterium. You didn't include it in your rule of faith.

    If you know about the ordinary magisterium, then why do you question it, by demanding an ex Cathedra definition? When I said that we must hold the traditions and interpret scripture literally (unless reason or necessity suggests otherwise), I gave you two examples from the ordinary magisterium. Therefore I did include it (by default).
    Catholic Encyclopedia – Heresy, 1913: The Pope himself, if notoriously guilty of heresy, would cease to be Pope because he would cease to be a member of the Church.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
    « Reply #89 on: October 22, 2017, 10:31:30 PM »
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  • I am responding to what you said, right "out of the gate", and you made no mention of the ordinary magisterium. 
    .
    If you are now incorporating it into your rule of faith, good. 
    .
    So the ordinary magisterium is "just as good" as the extraordinary magisterium. Good. Your assertion is that flat earth belongs to the ordinary magisterium, then? 
    .
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