Author Topic: God's Flat Earth in Scripture  (Read 2113 times)

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Offline Lastdays

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God's Flat Earth in Scripture
« on: October 15, 2017, 08:39:05 PM »
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  • The Freemasonic NASA cartoon ball lacks pillars, foundations, a solid firmament with waters above it, flood gates, corners etc. It also has a solid core in the middle which we know is not biblical. Hmm, I wonder why they would remove Purgatory and Hell and put a solid core in the middle? Just a coincidence, right people? Dan 4:8 and Mat 4:8 are not even possible on a ball. The ball is dead. :incense: Say night, night to the ball earth.
     
    Gen 1:6-8  God also said: Be a firmament made amidst the waters: and let it divide between waters and waters. And God made a firmament, and divided the waters that were under the firmament, from those that were above the firmament. And it was so done. And God called the firmament, Heaven: and there was evening & morning that made the second day.

    Gen 7:11  In the six hundred year of the life of Noe, in the second month, in the seventeenth day of the month, all the fountains of the great depth were broken up, and the flood-gates of Heaven were opened:

    Gen 8:2  And the fountains of the depth, and the flood-gates of Heaven, were shut up: and the rain from Heaven was stayed.

    1 Kgs 2:8  He raiseth the needy man from the dust, and from the dung he lifteth up the poor: that he may sit with Princes, and hold the throne of glory. For the poles of the earth are our Lords, and upon them he hath set the world.
     
    2 Kgs 22:16  And the overflowings of the sea appeared, and the foundations of the world were discovered at the rebuking of our Lord, at the breathing of the spirit of his fury.

    Ps 74:4  The earth is melted, and all that dwell in it: I have confirmed the pillars thereof.
     
    Ps 103:2-3  Thou hast put on confession and beauty: being clothed with light as with a garment: Stretching out the Heaven as a skin: which coverest the higher parts thereof with waters.
     
    Prov 8:28-29  When he established the firmament above, and poised the fountains of waters: when he compassed the sea with her limits, and set a law to the waters that they should not pass their bounds: when he hanged the foundations of the earth

    Dan 4:8  A great tree, and strong: and the height thereof touching the Heaven: the sight thereof was even to the ends of all the earth.

    Is 40:22  He that sitteth upon the compass of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts: he that stretcheth out the heavens as nothing, and spreadeth them as a tent to dwell in.

    Is 43:6  I will say to the North: give: and to the South, Hinder not: bring my sons from a far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth.

    Is 66:1  Thus saith our Lord: Heaven is my seat, and the earth my foot stool: what is this house that you will build to me? and what is this place of my rest?

    Ezk 1:26  And  above the firmament, that hung over their head, as it were the form of the sapphire stone the similitude of a throne, and upon the similitude of the throne, a similitude as it were the shape of a man above.

    Job 9:6  He that removeth the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof are shaken.

    Job 37:18  Thou perhaps madst the heavens with him, which are most sound, cast as it were of brass.

    Job 38:4-6  Where wast thou when I laid  the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. Who set the measures thereof, if thou know? or who stretched out the line upon it? upon what are the foundations thereof grounded? or who let down the corner stone thereof,

    Job 38:13  And didst thou hold the extremities of the earth shaking them, and hast thou shaken the impious out of it?

    Mat 4:8  Again the Devil took him up into a very high mountain: and he shewed him all the Kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them,


    Apoc 7:1  After these things I saw four Angels standing upon the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth that they should not blow upon the land, nor upon the sea, nor on any tree.

    Apoc 20:7  And when the thousand years shall be consummate, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go forth, and seduce the nations that are upon the four corners of the earth, Gog, and Magog, and shall gather them into battle, the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
     
     
     
    Catholic Encyclopedia – Heresy, 1913: The Pope himself, if notoriously guilty of heresy, would cease to be Pope because he would cease to be a member of the Church.

    Offline tornpage

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    Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
    « Reply #1 on: October 15, 2017, 08:53:46 PM »
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  • Let's assume that the measure of truth is the magisterium of the Catholic Church, not private interpretations of Scripture, no matter how "cogent" you or I may think they are; since we are both Catholics, it is easy to make this assumption between us.

    Has the Church measured this and certified the earth as flat? Were any of your brethren making these arguments to the Church when we had a magisterium prior to 1959? Why didn't the Church "bite" and make the declaration you do?

    The lack of a living magisterium doesn't give you much cover in light of the fact that you were naked for almost two thousand years prior to 1959 and your defects were obvious. . . but memories are short and historical context generally eludes the present, so why not, eh?
    "[L]et us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is 'one God, one faith, one baptism' [Eph. 4:5]; it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry."

    Pope Pius IX, Singulari quadem


    Offline Lastdays

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    Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
    « Reply #2 on: October 15, 2017, 09:36:16 PM »
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  • Let's assume that the measure of truth is the magisterium of the Catholic Church, not private interpretations of Scripture, no matter how "cogent" you or I may think they are; since we are both Catholics, it is easy to make this assumption between us. Has the Church measured this and certified the earth as flat? Were any of your brethren making these arguments to the Church when we had a magisterium prior to 1959? Why didn't the Church "bite" and make the declaration you do?

    In the absence of an ex Cathedra statement, Catholics are to hold to tradition and a literal interpretation of the Scriptures, unless reason suggests otherwise. The NASA cartoon ball is not traditional and it is unreasonable to any sane person.
    Catholic Encyclopedia – Heresy, 1913: The Pope himself, if notoriously guilty of heresy, would cease to be Pope because he would cease to be a member of the Church.

    Offline RoughAshlar

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    Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
    « Reply #3 on: October 15, 2017, 10:44:04 PM »
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  • Keep in mind Leo XIII's Providentissimus Deus.  He was speaking about the exact topic you are debating...The literal interpretation of scripture.

    To understand how just is the rule here formulated we must remember, first, that the sacred writers, or to speak more accurately, the Holy Ghost "Who spoke by them, did not intend to teach men these things (that is to say, the essential nature of the things of the visible universe), things in no way profitable unto salvation."(53) Hence they did not seek to penetrate the secrets of nature, but rather described and dealt with things in more or less figurative language, or in terms which were commonly used at the time, and which in many instances are in daily use at this day, even by the most eminent men of science. Ordinary speech primarily and properly describes what comes under the senses; and somewhat in the same way the sacred writers-as the Angelic Doctor also reminds us - `went by what sensibly appeared,"(54) or put down what God, speaking to men, signified, in the way men could understand and were accustomed to.
    19. The unshrinking defence of the Holy Scripture, however, does not require that we should equally uphold all the opinions which each of the Fathers or the more recent interpreters have put forth in explaining it; for it may be that, in commenting on passages where physical matters occur, they have sometimes expressed the ideas of their own times, and thus made statements which in these days have been abandoned as incorrect. Hence, in their interpretations, we must carefully note what they lay down as belonging to faith, or as intimately connected with faith-what they are unanimous in. For "in those things which do not come under the obligation of faith, the Saints were at liberty to hold divergent opinions, just as we ourselves are,"(55) according to the saying of St. Thomas. And in another place he says most admirably: "When philosophers are agreed upon a point, and it is not contrary to our faith, it is safer, in my opinion, neither to lay down such a point as a dogma of faith, even though it is perhaps so presented by the philosophers, nor to reject it as against faith, lest we thus give to the wise of this world an occasion of despising our faith."

    Offline Truth is Eternal

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    Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
    « Reply #4 on: October 15, 2017, 11:31:54 PM »
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  • Let's assume that the measure of truth is the magisterium of the Catholic Church, not private interpretations of Scripture, no matter how "cogent" you or I may think they are; since we are both Catholics, it is easy to make this assumption between us.

    Has the Church measured this and certified the earth as flat? Were any of your brethren making these arguments to the Church when we had a magisterium prior to 1959? Why didn't the Church "bite" and make the declaration you do?

    The lack of a living magisterium doesn't give you much cover in light of the fact that you were naked for almost two thousand years prior to 1959 and your defects were obvious. . . but memories are short and historical context generally eludes the present, so why not, eh?

    God didn't error in creating the flat earth.
    "I Think it is Time Cathinfo Has a Public Profession of Belief." "Thank you for publicly affirming the necessity of believing, without innovations, all Infallibly Defined Dogmas of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church."


    Offline An even Seven

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    Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
    « Reply #5 on: October 16, 2017, 07:53:36 AM »
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  • Keep in mind Leo XIII's Providentissimus Deus.  He was speaking about the exact topic you are debating...The literal interpretation of scripture.

    To understand how just is the rule here formulated we must remember, first, that the sacred writers, or to speak more accurately, the Holy Ghost "Who spoke by them, did not intend to teach men these things (that is to say, the essential nature of the things of the visible universe), things in no way profitable unto salvation."(53) Hence they did not seek to penetrate the secrets of nature, but rather described and dealt with things in more or less figurative language, or in terms which were commonly used at the time, and which in many instances are in daily use at this day, even by the most eminent men of science. Ordinary speech primarily and properly describes what comes under the senses; and somewhat in the same way the sacred writers-as the Angelic Doctor also reminds us - `went by what sensibly appeared,"(54) or put down what God, speaking to men, signified, in the way men could understand and were accustomed to.
    19. The unshrinking defence of the Holy Scripture, however, does not require that we should equally uphold all the opinions which each of the Fathers or the more recent interpreters have put forth in explaining it; for it may be that, in commenting on passages where physical matters occur, they have sometimes expressed the ideas of their own times, and thus made statements which in these days have been abandoned as incorrect. Hence, in their interpretations, we must carefully note what they lay down as belonging to faith, or as intimately connected with faith-what they are unanimous in. For "in those things which do not come under the obligation of faith, the Saints were at liberty to hold divergent opinions, just as we ourselves are,"(55) according to the saying of St. Thomas. And in another place he says most admirably: "When philosophers are agreed upon a point, and it is not contrary to our faith, it is safer, in my opinion, neither to lay down such a point as a dogma of faith, even though it is perhaps so presented by the philosophers, nor to reject it as against faith, lest we thus give to the wise of this world an occasion of despising our faith."
    Great Quote and it will no doubt be utterly incapable of penetrating flatEarthist's minds. Here are some other very pertinent quotes about the interpreting of Scripture from the Fathers.
    To interpret Scripture literally means to interpret it in the way the Author intended it. Not to understand every word of the translation at its base meaning.

    Quote
    Augustine- The literal meaning of Genesis: "It is also frequently asked what our belief must be about the form and shape of heaven according to Sacred Scripture. Many scholars engage in lengthy discussions on these matters, but the sacred writers with their deeper wisdom have omitted them.   Such subjects are of no profit for those who seek beatitude, and, what is worse, they take up very precious time that ought to be given to what is spiritually beneficial.
     What concern is it of mine whether heaven is like a sphere and the earth is enclosed by it and suspended in the middle of the universe, or whether heaven like a disk above the earth covers it over on one side?"


    Quote
    Augustin, The literal meaning of Genesis:  “In matters that are obscure and far beyond our vision, even in such as we may find treated in Holy Scripture, different interpretations are sometimes possible without prejudice to the faith we have received. In such a case, we should not rush in headlong and so firmly take our stand on one side that, if further progress in search of truth justly undermines this position, we too fall with it. That would be to battle not for the Teaching of Holy Scriptures but for our own, wishing its teachings to conform to ours, whereas we ought to wish ours to conform to that of Sacred Scriptures."



    Quote
    Basil, Hexaemeron: “It will not lead me to give less importance to the creation of the universe, that the servant of God, Moses, is silent as to shapes; ... He has passed over in silence, as useless, all that is unimportant for us. Shall I then prefer foolish wisdom to the oracles of the Holy Spirit? Shall I not rather exalt Him who, not wishing to fill our minds with these vanities, has regulated all the economy of Scripture in view of the edification and the making perfect of our souls? It is this which those seem to me not to have understood, who, giving themselves up to the distorted meaning of allegory, have undertaken to give a majesty of their own invention to Scripture. It is to believe themselves wiser than the Holy Spirit, and to bring forth their own ideas under a pretext of exegesis. Let us hear Scripture as it has been written.

    Matthew 15:9 And in vain do they worship me, teaching doctrines and commandments of men.

    Offline Lastdays

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    Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
    « Reply #6 on: October 16, 2017, 08:38:46 AM »
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  • Keep in mind Leo XIII's Providentissimus Deus.  He was speaking about the exact topic you are debating...The literal interpretation of scripture.

    To understand how just is the rule here formulated we must remember, first, that the sacred writers, or to speak more accurately, the Holy Ghost "Who spoke by them, did not intend to teach men these things (that is to say, the essential nature of the things of the visible universe), things in no way profitable unto salvation."(53) Hence they did not seek to penetrate the secrets of nature, but rather described and dealt with things in more or less figurative language, or in terms which were commonly used at the time, and which in many instances are in daily use at this day, even by the most eminent men of science. Ordinary speech primarily and properly describes what comes under the senses; and somewhat in the same way the sacred writers-as the Angelic Doctor also reminds us - `went by what sensibly appeared,"(54) or put down what God, speaking to men, signified, in the way men could understand and were accustomed to.
    19. The unshrinking defence of the Holy Scripture, however, does not require that we should equally uphold all the opinions which each of the Fathers or the more recent interpreters have put forth in explaining it; for it may be that, in commenting on passages where physical matters occur, they have sometimes expressed the ideas of their own times, and thus made statements which in these days have been abandoned as incorrect. Hence, in their interpretations, we must carefully note what they lay down as belonging to faith, or as intimately connected with faith-what they are unanimous in. For "in those things which do not come under the obligation of faith, the Saints were at liberty to hold divergent opinions, just as we ourselves are,"(55) according to the saying of St. Thomas. And in another place he says most admirably: "When philosophers are agreed upon a point, and it is not contrary to our faith, it is safer, in my opinion, neither to lay down such a point as a dogma of faith, even though it is perhaps so presented by the philosophers, nor to reject it as against faith, lest we thus give to the wise of this world an occasion of despising our faith."


    Unfortunately your example does not apply, since knowing the truth in regards to God's creation is indeed intimately connected with the faith and profitable to salvation. It is for this very reason that the devil and his followers attack it. Unfortunately you and many others (possibly even Pope Leo XIII in his fallible opinion) are unable to see the connection.
    Catholic Encyclopedia – Heresy, 1913: The Pope himself, if notoriously guilty of heresy, would cease to be Pope because he would cease to be a member of the Church.

    Offline RoughAshlar

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    Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
    « Reply #7 on: October 16, 2017, 09:09:25 AM »
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  • Unfortunately your example does not apply, since knowing the truth in regards to God's creation is indeed intimately connected with the faith and profitable to salvation. It is for this very reason that the devil and his followers attack it. Unfortunately you and many others (possibly even Pope Leo XIII in his fallible opinion) are unable to see the connection.
    And your thoughts on the St. Augustine quotes from AES....Saint and Doctor of the Church that Leo XIII quoted in Providentissimus Deus.


    Offline St Ignatius

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    Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
    « Reply #8 on: October 16, 2017, 09:11:24 AM »
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  • Unfortunately your example does not apply, since knowing the truth in regards to God's creation is indeed intimately connected with the faith and profitable to salvation. It is for this very reason that the devil and his followers attack it. Unfortunately you and many others (possibly even Pope Leo XIII in his fallible opinion) are unable to see the connection.

    It's interesting that you seem to show some disdain towards Leo XIII… maybe I do see a connection. 

    From the Encyclical, Satis Cognitum:

    There can be nothing more dangerous than those heretics who admit nearly the whole cycle of doctrine, and yet by one word, as with a drop of poison, infect the real and simple faith taught by our Lord and handed down by Apostolic tradition.

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
    « Reply #9 on: October 16, 2017, 09:11:32 AM »
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  • ... but it isn't even considered that the run-of-the-mill, dubious Dubayist, incompetent, Prostratant, Flatulent Frisbee fanatic is possibly wrong, at least not to any degree more than lip-service.

      The humility is nigh-insufferable....
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline An even Seven

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    Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
    « Reply #10 on: October 16, 2017, 09:20:20 AM »
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  • In regards to the OP:

    • There is not one quote at all, that explicitly says that the Earth is Flat
    • There is no reason that a firmament cannot be around a Globe Earth
    • A figurative interpretation is appropriate in most of these Passages anyway because of nature of what's being taught i.e. the Awesomeness of the Creator and the lowness of the created.
    Matthew 15:9 And in vain do they worship me, teaching doctrines and commandments of men.


    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
    « Reply #11 on: October 16, 2017, 09:24:01 AM »
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  • The Freemasonic NASA cartoon ball lacks pillars, foundations, a solid firmament with waters above it, flood gates, corners etc. It also has a solid core in the middle which we know is not biblical. Hmm, I wonder why they would remove Purgatory and Hell and put a solid core in the middle? Just a coincidence, right people? Dan 4:8 and Mat 4:8 are not even possible on a ball. The ball is dead. :incense: Say night, night to the ball earth.
     
    Gen 1:6-8  God also said: Be a firmament made amidst the waters: and let it divide between waters and waters. And God made a firmament, and divided the waters that were under the firmament, from those that were above the firmament. And it was so done. And God called the firmament, Heaven: and there was evening & morning that made the second day.

    Gen 7:11  In the six hundred year of the life of Noe, in the second month, in the seventeenth day of the month, all the fountains of the great depth were broken up, and the flood-gates of Heaven were opened:

    Gen 8:2  And the fountains of the depth, and the flood-gates of Heaven, were shut up: and the rain from Heaven was stayed.

    1 Kgs 2:8  He raiseth the needy man from the dust, and from the dung he lifteth up the poor: that he may sit with Princes, and hold the throne of glory. For the poles of the earth are our Lords, and upon them he hath set the world.
     
    2 Kgs 22:16  And the overflowings of the sea appeared, and the foundations of the world were discovered at the rebuking of our Lord, at the breathing of the spirit of his fury.

    Ps 74:4  The earth is melted, and all that dwell in it: I have confirmed the pillars thereof.

    Ps 103:2-3  Thou hast put on confession and beauty: being clothed with light as with a garment: Stretching out the Heaven as a skin: which coverest the higher parts thereof with waters.

    Prov 8:28-29  When he established the firmament above, and poised the fountains of waters: when he compassed the sea with her limits, and set a law to the waters that they should not pass their bounds: when he hanged the foundations of the earth

    Dan 4:8 A great tree, and strong: and the height thereof touching the Heaven: the sight thereof was even to the ends of all the earth.

    Is 40:22  He that sitteth upon the compass of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts: he that stretcheth out the heavens as nothing, and spreadeth them as a tent to dwell in.

    Is 43:6  I will say to the North: give: and to the South, Hinder not: bring my sons from a far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth.

    Is 66:1  Thus saith our Lord: Heaven is my seat, and the earth my foot stool: what is this house that you will build to me? and what is this place of my rest?

    Ezk 1:26  And  above the firmament, that hung over their head, as it were the form of the sapphire stone the similitude of a throne, and upon the similitude of the throne, a similitude as it were the shape of a man above.

    Job 9:6  He that removeth the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof are shaken.

    Job 37:18  Thou perhaps madst the heavens with him, which are most sound, cast as it were of brass.

    Job 38:4-6  Where wast thou when I laid  the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. Who set the measures thereof, if thou know? or who stretched out the line upon it? upon what are the foundations thereof grounded? or who let down the corner stone thereof,

    Job 38:13  And didst thou hold the extremities of the earth shaking them, and hast thou shaken the impious out of it?

    Mat 4:8 Again the Devil took him up into a very high mountain: and he shewed him all the Kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them,


    Apoc 7:1  After these things I saw four Angels standing upon the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth that they should not blow upon the land, nor upon the sea, nor on any tree.

    Apoc 20:7  And when the thousand years shall be consummate, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go forth, and seduce the nations that are upon the four corners of the earth, Gog, and Magog, and shall gather them into battle, the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
     
     
     


    Yes, and unless you're sinless:


    "And if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out. It is better for thee with one eye to enter into the kingdom of God than having two eyes to be cast into the hell of fire:"
    [Mark 9:46]

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
    « Reply #12 on: October 16, 2017, 09:26:41 AM »
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  • Yes, and unless you're sinless:


    "And if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out. It is better for thee with one eye to enter into the kingdom of God than having two eyes to be cast into the hell of fire:"
    [Mark 9:46]
    Who says that the core is solid? Last I'm checking even Godless secular wise, that means we're all long gone dead.
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline happenby

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    Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
    « Reply #13 on: October 16, 2017, 12:15:25 PM »
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  • Great Quote and it will no doubt be utterly incapable of penetrating flatEarthist's minds. Here are some other very pertinent quotes about the interpreting of Scripture from the Fathers.
    To interpret Scripture literally means to interpret it in the way the Author intended it. Not to understand every word of the translation at its base meaning.
    As if these are actual teachings on the subject.  Or the only thing to be found in Tradition.  In fact, globers search high and low for confirmation of their error and ignore the mind of the Church on the matter, having dismissed a multitude of Catholic quotes, scripture and decrees, showing there is more to know.  Selective refutation has zero value.

    Offline Lastdays

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    Re: God's Flat Earth in Scripture
    « Reply #14 on: October 16, 2017, 12:25:01 PM »
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  • It's interesting that you seem to show some disdain towards Leo XIII… maybe I do see a connection.

    From the Encyclical, Satis Cognitum:

    There can be nothing more dangerous than those heretics who admit nearly the whole cycle of doctrine, and yet by one word, as with a drop of poison, infect the real and simple faith taught by our Lord and handed down by Apostolic tradition.
    I have no disdain towards Pope Leo XIII. I have no idea where you got that from. Neither does your example make sense, since the NASA cartoon ball was not taught by Jesus Christ nor was it handed down by Apostolic tradition.
    Catholic Encyclopedia – Heresy, 1913: The Pope himself, if notoriously guilty of heresy, would cease to be Pope because he would cease to be a member of the Church.

     

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