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Poll

Do you believe the Earth is flat or spherical?

Flat
14 (30.4%)
Sphere
19 (41.3%)
other
4 (8.7%)
don't know
7 (15.2%)
don't care
2 (4.3%)

Total Members Voted: 45

Voting closed: July 22, 2024, 05:29:21 PM

Author Topic: Globe Earth vs. Flat Earth  (Read 13077 times)

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Offline Gray2023

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Globe Earth vs. Flat Earth
« on: July 12, 2024, 05:29:21 PM »
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  • Are polls private?

    In my other life, before I married, I studied to be a Social Scientist, so I am naturally curious by how people think and act.  Please humor me and take the poll.

    Thank you and God bless you.
    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"

    Offline AlNg

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    Re: Globe Earth vs. Flat Earth
    « Reply #1 on: July 13, 2024, 02:15:02 AM »
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  • Are polls private?

     I don't think you can guarantee privacy for many polls.
     With regard to the question if the earth is flat, here is an article by Father Charles Grondin:
    Is flat earth belief Biblical?

    Question:
    Does the book of Genesis or some other book of the Bible say the Earth is flat?
    Answer:

    No, the Bible does not say that the Earth is flat. There are some common idioms the Bible uses that if taken literally might give the impression that it’s claiming the Earth to be flat, but idioms are not meant to be taken literally. After all, if you tell me something outrageous and I say, “You’re pulling my leg!”, am I accusing you of a physical assault or accusing you of telling a fib or a joke?
    One such example is the expression “the four corner of the Earth.” This idiom is used only when expressing how far something is to travel (Rev. 20:8) or to emphasize the vastness of something (Is. 11:12). This phrase is also used simply as an expression of north, south, east, and west (Rev. 7:1). Even in biblical times, people usually traveled with a flat map that had four corners. If you were to travel to the places designated by the four corners of the map, that would indicate you are traveling “all over” the map, but it is still not an attempt to state a fact about the shape of the Earth.
    Another common idiomatic biblical expression is “the ends of the earth.” But once again, it is an expression of great distance and not an attempt at a factual statement.
    The reality is that most ancient people knew the Earth was a sphere; the only question was how large of a sphere. The idea that the Bible teaches the Earth is flat gained traction only in the Fundamentalist movement in the nineteenth century.
    https://www.catholic.com/qa/is-flat-earth-belief-biblical


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Globe Earth vs. Flat Earth
    « Reply #2 on: July 13, 2024, 05:27:08 AM »
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  • I picked "other" because I lean flat earth, mainly because I'm 100% satisfied that the earth is stationary, does not spin or rotate - so is not ball shaped. I've come to a conclusion I like....

    After thinking about it for a few minutes, because it's stationary there's no reason for it to be round, and I can't see a flat object rotating at all, I mean, eventually that rotating flat object would wobble, that wobbling would eventually come to rest - like a spinning coin on a table comes to rest then just sits there. No, the earth is stationary alright, we've definitely been totally lied to about that, why would they stop there? 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Globe Earth vs. Flat Earth
    « Reply #3 on: July 13, 2024, 08:45:41 AM »
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  • I don't think you can guarantee privacy for many polls.
     With regard to the question if the earth is flat, here is an article by Father Charles Grondin:
    Is flat earth belief Biblical?

    Question:
    Does the book of Genesis or some other book of the Bible say the Earth is flat?
    https://www.catholic.com/qa/is-flat-earth-belief-biblical

    Conciliar, anti-Traditional website owned by Catholic Answers, founded 1979, cited and therefore disregarded automatically.

    Come home to Tradition.
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    Online St Giles

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    Re: Globe Earth vs. Flat Earth
    « Reply #4 on: July 13, 2024, 12:41:21 PM »
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  • I don't think you can guarantee privacy for many polls.
     With regard to the question if the earth is flat, here is an article by Father Charles Grondin:
    Is flat earth belief Biblical?

    Question:
    Does the book of Genesis or some other book of the Bible say the Earth is flat?
    Answer:

    No, the Bible does not say that the Earth is flat. There are some common idioms the Bible uses that if taken literally might give the impression that it’s claiming the Earth to be flat, but idioms are not meant to be taken literally. After all, if you tell me something outrageous and I say, “You’re pulling my leg!”, am I accusing you of a physical assault or accusing you of telling a fib or a joke?
    One such example is the expression “the four corner of the Earth.” This idiom is used only when expressing how far something is to travel (Rev. 20:8) or to emphasize the vastness of something (Is. 11:12). This phrase is also used simply as an expression of north, south, east, and west (Rev. 7:1). Even in biblical times, people usually traveled with a flat map that had four corners. If you were to travel to the places designated by the four corners of the map, that would indicate you are traveling “all over” the map, but it is still not an attempt to state a fact about the shape of the Earth.
    Another common idiomatic biblical expression is “the ends of the earth.” But once again, it is an expression of great distance and not an attempt at a factual statement.
    The reality is that most ancient people knew the Earth was a sphere; the only question was how large of a sphere. The idea that the Bible teaches the Earth is flat gained traction only in the Fundamentalist movement in the nineteenth century.
    https://www.catholic.com/qa/is-flat-earth-belief-biblical
    That reminds me of my thoughts posted last year on the 4 corners:


    Is it possible that the words God uses have such richness and depth of meaning that they go far beyond our common understanding and accurately describe even complex ideas in simple terms? I was reading Ecclesiasticus recently, and contained in the prologue is "...pardon us for those things wherein we may seem, while we follow the image of wisdom, to come short in the composition of words; for the Hebrew words have not the same force in them when translated into another tongue. And not only these, but the law also itself, and the prophets, and the rest of the books, have no small difference, when they are spoken in their own language."

    What is a corner? I think of where 2 lines intersect on a square, or 3 lines in a 3 dimensional room. 4 walls of the earth would not work because that doesn't indicate a complete enclosure as there may be no ceiling, and walls do not restrict movement in any one place since a person can move along the wall one way or the other after having reached it. In a corner, all limits come together, and the only way left to move is back to where you have already been. If you travel around a globe, you will eventually reach the limits of where you have not been, and even by continuing forward, will move toward where you have already been.

    Why 4 corners? Shapes exist with more or less than 4 corners. We can move in a theoretically infinite number of directions, but the minimum number of directions to move anywhere on a surface can be reduced to a combination of 4. 3 would almost work, but a vector using more than one direction out of 3 would call for movement in opposite directions, so 4 is the lower limit.


    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"


    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Globe Earth vs. Flat Earth
    « Reply #5 on: July 13, 2024, 12:46:56 PM »
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  • That reminds me of my thoughts posted last year on the 4 corners:

    This is exactly why the official Bible is St. Jerome's Vulgate.

    It is not a translation, but also an interpretation, as all translations are. If the Church says that St. Jerome's version is official, I understand that we are bound to agree with his interpretation of the Holy Writ.

    Online St Giles

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    Re: Globe Earth vs. Flat Earth
    « Reply #6 on: July 13, 2024, 01:00:16 PM »
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  • Yes, I saw something about that recently in my Haydock Bible regarding many differences in the Greek translations, so St. Jerome's is used instead.
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Globe Earth vs. Flat Earth
    « Reply #7 on: July 13, 2024, 01:19:41 PM »
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  • Yes, I saw something about that recently in my Haydock Bible regarding many differences in the Greek translations, so St. Jerome's is used instead.

    I also read that St. Jerome had access to texts that were lost in time. So, in a certain sense, his work is impossible to be matched, even if we disregard that he lived in a priviledged time, not so far from the Apostolic Fathers. 


    Online St Giles

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    Re: Globe Earth vs. Flat Earth
    « Reply #8 on: July 13, 2024, 01:59:49 PM »
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  • I also read that St. Jerome had access to texts that were lost in time. So, in a certain sense, his work is impossible to be matched, even if we disregard that he lived in a priviledged time, not so far from the Apostolic Fathers.
    Right, that was what I read in the same place.
    And, yet there's still that quote: "...pardon us for those things wherein we may seem, while we follow the image of wisdom, to come short in the composition of words; for the Hebrew words have not the same force in them when translated into another tongue. And not only these, but the law also itself, and the prophets, and the rest of the books, have no small difference, when they are spoken in their own language."

    To me that indicates a loss or degradation of information even if it still conveys what is necessary for the faith.
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Globe Earth vs. Flat Earth
    « Reply #9 on: July 13, 2024, 02:52:01 PM »
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  • Right, that was what I read in the same place.
    And, yet there's still that quote: "...pardon us for those things wherein we may seem, while we follow the image of wisdom, to come short in the composition of words; for the Hebrew words have not the same force in them when translated into another tongue. And not only these, but the law also itself, and the prophets, and the rest of the books, have no small difference, when they are spoken in their own language."

    To me that indicates a loss or degradation of information even if it still conveys what is necessary for the faith.

    If we really want to go deep and understand St. Jerome's choice of words, we would need a deep knowledge of Latin and Hebrew, something that few people have.

    Plus, we would need a reliable Hebrew text, that was not adulterated. Jєωιѕн sources are unacceptable. I really don't know if these are avaliable.

    Pope Pius XII allowed for vernacular translations to be made from the originals in the 40s, but he does not say what are these originals. I have made some research, but I have found no information at all about it.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Globe Earth vs. Flat Earth
    « Reply #10 on: July 13, 2024, 03:04:15 PM »
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  • I see Stubborn explained his "other" vote.  I would be interested in hearing why others picked "other"....?


    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Globe Earth vs. Flat Earth
    « Reply #11 on: July 13, 2024, 03:58:08 PM »
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  • I picked "other" because I lean flat earth, mainly because I'm 100% satisfied that the earth is stationary, does not spin or rotate - so is not ball shaped. I've come to a conclusion I like....

    After thinking about it for a few minutes, because it's stationary there's no reason for it to be round, and I can't see a flat object rotating at all, I mean, eventually that rotating flat object would wobble, that wobbling would eventually come to rest - like a spinning coin on a table comes to rest then just sits there. No, the earth is stationary alright, we've definitely been totally lied to about that, why would they stop there?
    Why would it be assumed that if it is a sphere, then it must be moving?
    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Globe Earth vs. Flat Earth
    « Reply #12 on: July 13, 2024, 06:32:04 PM »
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  • Why would it be assumed that if it is a sphere, then it must be moving?
    Great question. Globers have an answer for that?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Globe Earth vs. Flat Earth
    « Reply #13 on: July 13, 2024, 08:43:29 PM »
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  • I voted Flat because I understand what is being asked, but the earth (with firmament) is in fact a globe.

    Earth is a tricky term, in that I contrast earth with Heaven, such as in the Creed, "God, the Creator of Heaven and Earth.", a dichotomy ... and don't believe in some strange in-between region they call "space".

    Within the Earth system, the surface on which we live is basically flat (not counting obvious differences in topology).

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Globe Earth vs. Flat Earth
    « Reply #14 on: July 13, 2024, 08:44:57 PM »
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  • Conciliar, anti-Traditional website owned by Catholic Answers, founded 1979, cited and therefore disregarded automatically.

    Come home to Tradition.

    Yes, Catholic Answers was the only other Catholic forum I've ever participated on, and I was banned 4-5 times for as many posts.  :laugh1:

    And, unlike how I sometimes get fiery here, those posts were extremely subdued and polite.