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Poll

Do you believe the Earth is flat or spherical?

Flat
14 (30.4%)
Sphere
19 (41.3%)
other
4 (8.7%)
don't know
7 (15.2%)
don't care
2 (4.3%)

Total Members Voted: 45

Voting closed: July 22, 2024, 05:29:21 PM

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Author Topic: Globe Earth vs. Flat Earth  (Read 13068 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Globe Earth vs. Flat Earth
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2024, 08:48:22 PM »
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    • I'm curious about the "other".  Those who voted "other", what think you?
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    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Globe Earth vs. Flat Earth
    « Reply #16 on: July 13, 2024, 11:31:57 PM »
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    • I voted 'other' not for a lack of evidence, of which there is no shortage, but simply for the fact that I'm not quite ready to take the plunge unequivocally.  I'm definitely a geocentrist and I'm leaning toward flatness.  

    Talk me off the ledge and show me a Curvature Calculator that works.  I don't want NASA composites and Idiot Dave windbaggery.  If the size of the round earth is an established fact, why do the Earth Curve Calculators always fail?  Seems 1) we either don't know the actual size or curvature, 2) someone continually inputs erroneous data and no one has noticed, or 3) maybe 'that stuff is flat'.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Globe Earth vs. Flat Earth
    « Reply #17 on: July 14, 2024, 05:15:22 AM »
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    • Quote from: Gray2023 on July 13, 2024, 03:58:08 PM
    Why would it be assumed that if it is a sphere, then it must be moving?
    I just picture a round object spinning as being more natural than a flat one, which seems unnatural to me.

    From Scripture, I make my start point the earth is not moving at all and the earth is the center of the universe. The sun, stars and all the planets all revolve around the flat earth, which is not really flat except for the surface we all live on - pretty much like some of the pictures showing a firmament etc that have already been posted on CI. I don't think we will ever really know for certain if it's FE or GE, and I think that's by divine design.

    Haydock commentary for Genesis 1:16:
    Quote
    [color=000000]..God has delivered the world to their consideration for dispute, so that man cannot find out the work which God hath made from the beginning to the end, Ecclesiastes iii. 11. If we must frequently confess our ignorance concerning the things which surround us, how shall we pretend to dive into the designs of God, or subject the mysteries of faith to our feeble reason?[/color]

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Globe Earth vs. Flat Earth
    « Reply #18 on: July 14, 2024, 12:02:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: MiracleOfTheSun on July 13, 2024, 11:31:57 PM
    I voted 'other' not for a lack of evidence, of which there is no shortage, but simply for the fact that I'm not quite ready to take the plunge unequivocally.  I'm definitely a geocentrist and I'm leaning toward flatness. 

    Ah, OK.  I figured that would go into "don't know" vote and that "other" implied that you felt that the earth was some other shape :laugh1:
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Globe Earth vs. Flat Earth
    « Reply #19 on: July 14, 2024, 12:03:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on July 14, 2024, 05:15:22 AM
    I just picture a round object spinning as being more natural than a flat one, which seems unnatural to me.

    Except that the world is in fact round, including a firmament, and the firmament spins/rotates.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Globe Earth vs. Flat Earth
    « Reply #20 on: July 14, 2024, 12:06:34 PM »
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    • It's gratifying to see that 21 individuals here, including the 13 FEs and the 8 who stated don't know / other ... so 21 individual are at least examining the question with an open mind, while only 11 still cling to the ball.
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    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Globe Earth vs. Flat Earth
    « Reply #21 on: July 15, 2024, 01:04:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 14, 2024, 12:06:34 PM
    It's gratifying to see that 21 individuals here, including the 13 FEs and the 8 who stated don't know / other ... so 21 individual are at least examining the question with an open mind, while only 11 still cling to the ball.
    I really do not understand why you do this?  By saying 21 have an open mind, you are implying the rest have a closed mind.  Do you want to start an argument?  The vote is not very big.  So you really can't make any sort of judgement call.  People have different opinions for there own reasons.

    Instead you are saying look I am on the winning team, and then you take a dig at those who don't agree with you.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Globe Earth vs. Flat Earth
    « Reply #22 on: July 15, 2024, 01:21:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: Gray2023 on July 15, 2024, 01:04:12 PM
    I really do not understand why you do this?  By saying 21 have an open mind, you are implying the rest have a closed mind.  Do you want to start an argument?  The vote is not very big.  So you really can't make any sort of judgement call.  People have different opinions for there own reasons.

    Instead you are saying look I am on the winning team, and then you take a dig at those who don't agree with you.

    It's very obvious and clear that the globe advocates on this forum (at least those who have posted) are not actually looking at any of the evidence with an open mind.  That's simply the truth.  They won't look at the evidence, and you can clearly see them constantly begging the question in their approach to the matter ... and their use of strawmen (false claims that no FEs hold) demonstrates that they haven't even looked at the FE arguments.  Begging the question and strawmen (along with numerous other obvious logical fallacies that have been pointed out yet ignored), not to mention the ridicule (often relying on strawmen) are all clear signs of individuals who are not honestly examining the issue, i.e. with an open mind.  I counted those who said "don't know" among those with an open mind.

    I constantly refer to the "see too far" problem and have not once received an answer, rebuttal, or refutation of that problem for the globe.  Instead, they change the subject.  Evasion and changing the subject is another sign.

    You can try to be in denial all you want, that you are examining the issue with an open mind, but it's clear that you (and several others here) are not.  It's possible that some of those who voted globe have in fact considered the question with an open mind, but I haven't encountered any directly posting on the subject.  Dr. Sungenis is another individual who makes it clear that he's never considered the matter with an open mind.

    It's clear, however, that you must have an open mind to come to the conclusion that the earth is flat due to the propaganda, psychological conditioning, and then subsequent ridicule to which FEs are subjected.  So while very few globers (in my experience) have an open mind, 100% of Flat Earthers have an open mind (even if you think they're wrong about their conclusion).
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    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Globe Earth vs. Flat Earth
    « Reply #23 on: July 15, 2024, 03:57:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 15, 2024, 01:21:13 PM
    It's very obvious and clear that the globe advocates on this forum (at least those who have posted) are not actually looking at any of the evidence with an open mind.  That's simply the truth.  They won't look at the evidence, and you can clearly see them constantly begging the question in their approach to the matter ... and their use of strawmen (false claims that no FEs hold) demonstrates that they haven't even looked at the FE arguments.  Begging the question and strawmen (along with numerous other obvious logical fallacies that have been pointed out yet ignored), not to mention the ridicule (often relying on strawmen) are all clear signs of individuals who are not honestly examining the issue, i.e. with an open mind.  I counted those who said "don't know" among those with an open mind.

    I constantly refer to the "see too far" problem and have not once received an answer, rebuttal, or refutation of that problem for the globe.  Instead, they change the subject.  Evasion and changing the subject is another sign.

    You can try to be in denial all you want, that you are examining the issue with an open mind, but it's clear that you (and several others here) are not.  It's possible that some of those who voted globe have in fact considered the question with an open mind, but I haven't encountered any directly posting on the subject.  Dr. Sungenis is another individual who makes it clear that he's never considered the matter with an open mind.

    It's clear, however, that you must have an open mind to come to the conclusion that the earth is flat due to the propaganda, psychological conditioning, and then subsequent ridicule to which FEs are subjected.  So while very few globers (in my experience) have an open mind, 100% of Flat Earthers have an open mind (even if you think they're wrong about their conclusion).
    The funny thing is that you do the same thing when it comes to questions you can't answer.

    Please look at this post and tell me why it is wrong.  How can that be if there is no curve?  None of this is doctored and is straight from a video that was sent supporting flat earth. 



    The image is from the video Meg posted. 
    (Ref https://www.cathinfo.com/the-earth-god-made-flat-earth-geocentrism/high-altitude-footage-proves-earth-is-flat-and-not-a-globe/45/)

    The image on the left is from 1/2 mile away. The image on the right is from 46 miles away.

    The building starts about 20ft above the level of Lake Michigan.  The building is 1451 ft.  The curvature at 46 miles away is about 1411 ft, but then refraction would let you see more of the building.  If it is flat you wouldn't be missing any of the building yet it seems that more than 500 ft is missing.  Just something to ponder.

    Here is a better picture of the tower.


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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Globe Earth vs. Flat Earth
    « Reply #24 on: July 15, 2024, 04:37:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 15, 2024, 01:21:13 PM
    It's very obvious and clear that the globe advocates on this forum (at least those who have posted) are not actually looking at any of the evidence with an open mind.  That's simply the truth.  They won't look at the evidence, and you can clearly see them constantly begging the question in their approach to the matter ... and their use of strawmen (false claims that no FEs hold) demonstrates that they haven't even looked at the FE arguments. 

    Agreed. They will ask for information on FE, but then when they are provided it, they could care less about the info provided, except where it may be a means to disprove FE. That really is all they care about (disproving it), even if they pretend otherwise. It's dishonest. 
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    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Globe Earth vs. Flat Earth
    « Reply #25 on: July 15, 2024, 07:05:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on July 15, 2024, 04:37:00 PM
    Agreed. They will ask for information on FE, but then when they are provided it, they could care less about the info provided, except where it may be a means to disprove FE. That really is all they care about (disproving it), even if they pretend otherwise. It's dishonest.
    Meg please look at the post with the pictures from a "Flat Earth person" and tell me how it is dishonest.
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    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Globe Earth vs. Flat Earth
    « Reply #26 on: July 16, 2024, 05:22:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: MiracleOfTheSun on July 13, 2024, 11:31:57 PM
    I voted 'other' not for a lack of evidence, of which there is no shortage, but simply for the fact that I'm not quite ready to take the plunge unequivocally.  I'm definitely a geocentrist and I'm leaning toward flatness. 

    Talk me off the ledge and show me a Curvature Calculator that works.  I don't want NASA composites and Idiot Dave windbaggery.  If the size of the round earth is an established fact, why do the Earth Curve Calculators always fail?  Seems 1) we either don't know the actual size or curvature, 2) someone continually inputs erroneous data and no one has noticed, or 3) maybe 'that stuff is flat'.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_geodesy     

    National Geodetic Survey, Charting and Geodetic Services, USA
    Astronomy and Space Geodesy Section, National Geodetic Survey, USA.

    Giovanni Domenico Cassini was one of the most skilled surveyors of his era, a man the popes in Rome had surveying rivers and lands to prevent flooding. So, as a true empiricist, he decided to measure the curve of the Earth as well as he could for himself in order to determine the true shape of the Earth. 

     

    King Louis XIV of France approved Cassini’s last great expedition. With the aid of his son Jacques Cassini (Cassini II) and others, he measured the arc of meridian (see above) from Paris north to Dunkirk and south to the boundary of Spain, and, in addition, he conducted various associated geodesic and further south astronomical operations that were reported to the French Academy. Cassini knew that it would be virtually impossible to measure every kilometer of meridian from Pole to Pole at the time. At best, a northern measurement would confirm a probable shape of the Earth. Consequently, they decided to measure where it was most convenient, in Europe in the northern hemisphere.

       

    The Cassinis found the Earth (the northern hemisphere)
    to be narrower at the sides and more pointed at the Pole.

    The results, published by Cassini II in 1720, showed the length of a meridian degree north of Paris was 111,017 meters or 265 meters shorter than one south of Paris (111,282 meters). This suggested that if this trend occurred in the southern hemisphere, the Earth has to be a prolate spheroid, not flattened at the poles as Newton proposed, but slightly pointed, with the equatorial axis shorter than the polar axis, that is, kind of egg-shaped rather than orange shaped.
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    Offline cassini

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    Re: Globe Earth vs. Flat Earth
    « Reply #27 on: July 16, 2024, 05:35:04 AM »
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    • Quote from: MiracleOfTheSun on July 13, 2024, 11:31:57 PM
     If the size of the round earth is an established fact, why do the Earth Curve Calculators always fail?  Seems 1) we either don't know the actual size or curvature, 2) someone continually inputs erroneous data and no one has noticed, or 3) maybe 'that stuff is flat'.

    COORDINATE SYSTEMS USED IN GEODESY
    BASIC DEFINITIONS AND CONCEPTS
    By Tomás Soler  and Larry D. Hothem,  Member, ASCE

    ‘INTRODUCTION: The principal problem of geodesy may be stated as follows (Hirvonen 1960): “Find the space coordinates at any point P at the physical surface S of the Earth when a sufficient number of geodetic operations have been carried out along S.” Therefore, in order to know the position P, the definition of an appropriate frame to which these spatial coordinates refer is of primary importance. Due to the nature of the rotational motions of the Earth [No, due to the rotation of the universe] and to other geodynamic phenomena, a rigorously defined, Earth-fixing coordinates system at the degree of accuracy of our current observational capabilities is not presently available.’   

    Here we see heliocentric geodesists in 1998 conveying meetings, colloquia and workshops organised jointly by the International Association of Geodesy and the International astronomical Union attempting to coordinate the work of different groups in the scientific community for the future definition and selection of reliable reference frames so that they can measure the combined shape of the Earth? Their problem of course is that because all cosmic bodies are moving relative to their moving Earth it is impossible for them to coordinate the many reference frames necessary for an accurate measurement of the Earth’s shape. In other words, here we have the modern experts in this field telling us that no accurate shape for the Earth has ever really been achieved. If this is so and all past measurements cannot be regarded as absolutely accurate
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Globe Earth vs. Flat Earth
    « Reply #28 on: July 16, 2024, 09:32:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: cassini on July 16, 2024, 05:22:26 AM
    Giovanni Domenico Cassini was one of the most skilled surveyors of his era, a man the popes in Rome had surveying rivers and lands to prevent flooding. So, as a true empiricist, he decided to measure the curve of the Earth as well as he could for himself in order to determine the true shape of the Earth. 

    I don't believe that any mere human can accurately determine the true shape of the earth. Math isn't infallible, though some believe that it is. Besides, he started out believing in a curve, and set out to prove it. 
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    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Globe Earth vs. Flat Earth
    « Reply #29 on: July 16, 2024, 09:55:11 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on July 16, 2024, 09:32:45 AM
    I don't believe that any mere human can accurately determine the true shape of the earth. Math isn't infallible, though some believe that it is. Besides, he started out believing in a curve, and set out to prove it.

    Not sure how he could "measure the curve" either, since topology alone would throw off those measurements.  Did he run around the world surveying the globe?  I doubt it.  You're only going to have seen so far anyway with the instruments available on Cassini's time.  More than likely he calculated using mathematical constructs.  If the curve or lack thereof could be measure directly, surely the globe earthers would have brought it up by now, and it would have ended the debate on this matter one way or the other.  If you go out on the ocean, as it was implied, the Sextant only works to calculate coordinates under the assumption of a Flat Earth.  There had to be many assumptions.  But the article posted by our cassini here doesn't post any real details.  Patching together geodetic observations sounds like what NASA does to patch together satellite pictures into a globe, where there are clear misses they have to fill in that wouldn't be there if we were on an actual globe.
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