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Author Topic: Glass production proves Earth is flat  (Read 6229 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Glass production proves Earth is flat
« Reply #120 on: June 20, 2022, 06:45:05 PM »
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  • The issue is whether or not what Bertone communicated (i.e., that there were currently "no condemnations or restrictions issued by ecclesiastical authorities with regard to [The Mystical City of God]" while acting in his official capacity as Secretary for the Sacred Congregation of the Congregation of the Faith, true or not.

    What does that mean?  Almost nothing is banned by the Novus Ordo, and they got rid of the Index.

    Offline Charity

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    Re: Glass production proves Earth is flat
    « Reply #121 on: June 20, 2022, 07:16:18 PM »
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  • We've covered this before in other threads, maybe you didn't see it. 

    There was an official condemnation of the Mystical City of God by Mary of Agreda for these reasons

    1. It violated the decree of Pope Urban VIII (March 13, 1625)
    2. It narrated apocryphal stories.
    3. It presented opinions of the Duns Scotus theological school as divine revelation.
    4. Mary of Agreda pictured the earth in the form of an egg, i.e. that the earth has a spherical shape.
    5. It exaggerated the cult of Our Lady to the extent of obscuring the great Mystery of the Incarnation.

    152 Masters of the Sorbonne discussed the Mystical City on thirty-two sessions, July 2-14, 1696.  102 of the 152 Masters voted against the book. At all events, Blessed Innocent signed the condemnation on June 26, 1681.


    Now, this shows a couple of things.  Number 1, how seriously dangerous the head of the Church and the bishops considered the spherical earth. They certainly did not agree.  But secondly, the pope doesn't seem aware that the snow globe world consistent with flat earth was probably what Agreda was describing. The way her description was worded suggested the earth itself was a sphere but maybe she wasn't trying to say that. In any event, they banned the book. As stated before, flat earthers see all of creation as a globe: with hell at the bottom, in the belly of the snow globe. Flat earth in the middle. And heaven makes up the top portion of the "globe".  This exact description is historically preserved in the traditions of Catholic culture as the "globus cruciger"*.  The Church is proven to be in defense of the flat earth against the pagan notion of spherical earth, even to the point of condemning Agreda's book.



     


    Tradman, you have (purposely?) left out an extremely important fact related to the above narrative so let me fill it in for you.

    The very Pope who you mention, Pope Blessed Innocent XI, who signed the condemnation of The Mystical City of God in 1681 "unsigned" it later the same year!  By "unsigned" I mean he completely reversed his condemnation by issuing a Brief that removed the Prohibitive Decree and, in opposition to that decree, the Pope decreed that The Mystical City of God was to be freely spread among the clergy and laity.

    Anyone interested in learning the details of how the wrongful and erroneous condemnation came about in the first place and how it was then very soon completely overturned by the very Pope who made it may refer to either of the following entries: 
    1)  To Read or Not to Read The Mystical City of God?   
    2)  section titled "Opposition" at  https://sensusfidelium.com/meditations/the-mystical-city-of-god-venerable-mary-of-agreda/ 



    Offline Charity

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    Re: Glass production proves Earth is flat
    « Reply #122 on: June 20, 2022, 07:32:38 PM »
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  • What does that mean?  Almost nothing is banned by the Novus Ordo, and they got rid of the Index.
    Good question.  Arguably, it means that Bertone had the perfect opportunity to try to muddy the waters, albeit illegitimately, over a massive work the modernists occupying Rome hate and yet for whatever reasons he did not take advantage of it.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Glass production proves Earth is flat
    « Reply #123 on: June 20, 2022, 07:41:36 PM »
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  • Tradman, you have (purposely?) left out an extremely important fact related to the above narrative so let me fill it in for you.

    I think his point (based on what he bolded) was that the group of theologians who initially recommended its condemnation found her description of the shape of the earth to be objectionable.  I'm not sure, however, whether they found objectionable the "egg" shape or the vaguely-spherical shape.  This "egg" shape seems consistent with what St. Hildegard said, but it's unclear what it means.  Even in the FE / ancient Hebrew view where you had a flat plane on which people lived, the OVERALL shape of the earth would be spherical, with the dome on top and the bottom part of the sphere consisting of hell + the great deep (as depicted in the image above).  St. Hildegard evidently believed (based on the one commentator cited) that the bottom part of said "sphere" was uninhabitable because it was "under the ocean" (aka under the great deep beneath the earth) and/or near the mouth of hell.  So just because they call it a sphere doesn't mean they believed that there was a ball that was inhabited all around.  St. Hildegard did not believe that people could live on the underside of the ball.  As I mentioned, even the Church Fathers who characterized the OVERALL shape of the earth as a sphere, most of them considered it objectionable to claim that people could live on the underside of it (i.e. the antipodes).  By "egg" they could very well have had a notion where the dome / firmament was more like the top of an egg.

    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Glass production proves Earth is flat
    « Reply #124 on: June 20, 2022, 08:15:39 PM »
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  • You see some of us know the Earth has seas, land and mountains. In other words the surface is not even. But we know the seas are even and if we use the seas as the standard surface measurement the science can work out more accurately the distance between areas and work out its bend. This of course it too complicated to your man to understand.


    Flatearthism has no doubt many good arguments to explain how it could work. But it also depends on there being a long conspiracy to hide this from the world, with many thousands of people all involved in making sure this 'secret' never came out.


     Best of all however, is that the biggest problem for flatearthers is to keep the edge of their Earth out of sight from anybody when all they need to do to convince all that the Earth is indeed flat by flying a plane, a spaceship, a balloon or a drone over the edge of their flat Earth taking videos or photos of it. Now that should convince everybody. So, who don't they do that? I tell you I for one would have to accept that as the only real proof for a flat Earth.

     


    Regarding these points:

    If water measurement is preferred and a 23 foot ship disappears after 6 miles out

    (actually Nikon P900 cameras have shown this not to be true but let's assume it is.)

    why isn't there a visible 23 foot drop on the ocean or lake horizon on the sides?  

    After 10 miles there should be a 66 foot drop.

    When viewing 10 miles of water horizon, ocean or lake, there should be a 66 foot drop on the sides.  The horizon should not be a straight line but it always is.

    Also, shouldn't the drop should be visible when viewing skylines that are waterside, such as Boston, New York, Chicago, or here is Miami:





    The buildings do not start to lean away from each other as they go "over the curve".  Can you see a 66 foot drop that causes the buildings to lean?




    The buildings remain level just like the water.

    Maybe these aren't the best photos.  Are there any photos of any skyline you can provide that demonstrate the curve with the 66 foot drop after 10 miles? 

    As far as the longstanding conspiracy and how many people are involved, that's an understandable question.  Yet we know of so many other cօռspιʀαcιҽs that have been almost universally maintained for a long time:

    The earth spins 1,000 miles per hour
    The earth rotates around the sun
    Man came from apes
    Man landed on the moon
    Masks protect from covid
    Social distancing will protect you from viruses
    The shots that don't prevent infection or transmission will protect others
    and more...

    And regarding the edge, consider that no one is allowed to pass the 60th parallel unescorted by a unified governmental consensus.  Why not?

    This video explains further about that:

    36min
    https://www.bitchute.com/video/7e2ONH7zHU0/








    Online Tradman

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    Re: Glass production proves Earth is flat
    « Reply #125 on: June 20, 2022, 08:19:23 PM »
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  • Tradman, you have (purposely?) left out an extremely important fact related to the above narrative so let me fill it in for you.

    The very Pope who you mention, Pope Blessed Innocent XI, who signed the condemnation of The Mystical City of God in 1681 "unsigned" it later the same year!  By "unsigned" I mean he completely reversed his condemnation by issuing a Brief that removed the Prohibitive Decree and, in opposition to that decree, the Pope decreed that The Mystical City of God was to be freely spread among the clergy and laity.

    Anyone interested in learning the details of how the wrongful and erroneous condemnation came about in the first place and how it was then very soon completely overturned by the very Pope who made it may refer to either of the following entries:
    1)  To Read or Not to Read The Mystical City of God?  
    2)  section titled "Opposition" at  https://sensusfidelium.com/meditations/the-mystical-city-of-god-venerable-mary-of-agreda/
    The point made was, that the Pope and bishops condemned her writings for said reasons, to include the heretical notion that earth is a globe.  Period. Lifting the condemnation is a non issue.  The condemnation itself is clear proof Catholics at the time were flat earthers. They probably discovered that she was never actually saying earth itself is a globe. Personally, I love her books and perhaps the globus cruciger had a hand in the lifting, but I'm just guessing. I also don't care what happened after the fact, and was never trying to suggest people should worry about reading her books.     

    Offline St Giles

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    Re: Glass production proves Earth is flat
    « Reply #126 on: June 20, 2022, 08:55:20 PM »
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  • 6min 47sec
    https://www.bitchute.com/video/zMCL7aMvP19Z/

    2min 56 sec
    https://www.bitchute.com/video/Nivloo0EAgc/

    6min 47sec
    https://www.bitchute.com/video/QbEJyrXp7mS8/
    One video seems to deny a south pole, and tries to show how it appears that a south pole may exist if only it could be seen. In his diagram, he shows a flat earth model shifted halfway into a ball earth model, and the path stars take according to his diagram just does not match up with the logic he originally presented for a flat earth. The other video seems to say there definitely is a south pole, but it is actually a distorted reflection of the north pole. So, it looks to me like 2 flat earthers contradicting each other, with one also contradicting himself.
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."

    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Glass production proves Earth is flat
    « Reply #127 on: June 20, 2022, 09:11:18 PM »
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  • One video seems to deny a south pole, and tries to show how it appears that a south pole may exist if only it could be seen. In his diagram, he shows a flat earth model shifted halfway into a ball earth model, and the path stars take according to his diagram just does not match up with the logic he originally presented for a flat earth. The other video seems to say there definitely is a south pole, but it is actually a distorted reflection of the north pole. So, it looks to me like 2 flat earthers contradicting each other, with one also contradicting himself.

    Just like those who believe in the ball earth, there isn't a consensus with regards to flat earth.  There is room for discussion and debate.

    Can you prove there is a south pole?

    Antarctica is a big piece to the puzzle.  People should go and explore it---oh wait, you can't.  

    See the video I posted above about restricted travel beyond the 60th parallel south.

    You can find much more on this by doing a search on Bitchute.

    Here are a couple more:
    14min


    10min 45sec
    https://www.bitchute.com/video/E4yZxHcTtxB3/



    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Glass production proves Earth is flat
    « Reply #128 on: June 21, 2022, 05:04:17 PM »
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  • Among the Church Fathers, even those who believed the earth was spherical, most did not believe that the antipodes were inhabitable.
    I remember one quote, not sure who it was, but that was just remarking that it was unrealistic for peoples to have travelled that far in such a short span of time. Do you have any others?

    I'd imagine another objection might be related to a common belief until the Age of Exploration that the equator would be far too warm for human inhabitation. There were even depictions of a ring of fire, although I'm not sure if those were literal or just intended to represent just how hot and uninhabitable it was supposed to be. However, nowadays both Flat and Globe Earthers agree that their versions of the equator are habitable and crossable, and also I'm pretty sure Flat Earthers don't contest that there are indeed people living on the other sides of the equator nowadays, or were pre-Columbus.

    Edit: Found this:

    Quote
    Classical and Medieval Europe considered the Earth to be divided by the equator into two hemispheres, the northern and southern; those who inhabited one of these hemispheres were said to be antichthones to those of the other. This idea was expounded by Mela and other Classical authors, though Christian writers, who believed that all people on earth must be descended from Adam, denied the possibility that any southern land, if it existed, could be inhabited by humans. Augustine of Hippo, arguing from a position of scriptural inerrancy, wrote in his City of God "it is too absurd to say, that some men might have taken ship and traversed the whole wide ocean, and crossed from this side of the world to the other, and that thus even the inhabitants of that distant region are descended from that one first man."[2]

    Looks like it was St. Augustine I was thinking of. I don't understand his reasoning though. Why would it be unrealistic for men to have reached the other side of the globe? It was thousands of years post-Flood by St. Augustine's day.

    I'd wager it was because his understanding of the world was based on the traditional Greek one, where Europe, Asia and Africa were the only 3 continents, with Africa ending above the Horn and Asia ending soon after India, along with (of course) the equator being totally uninhabitable and probably even impassable. Their understanding of the equator was based on the Sahara Desert after all, so if it's this bad this far north of the equator, it must be totally lethal there. 

    Either way, whether he meant that it was just impossible to cross the equator, or that a theoretical America would be impossible to reach too, both Flat Earth and Globe Earth models alike postulate that (1) people lived on the other side of the equator, and (2) people did indeed live in the Americas. So I don't think St. Augustine's statement here hurts a Globe Earth model any more than a Flat Earth one.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Glass production proves Earth is flat
    « Reply #129 on: June 21, 2022, 06:28:16 PM »
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  • Or did the Fathers have a similar view of the "spherical" earth that St. Hildegard did ... that, yes, it was spherical, but the bottom of the sphere was immersed in the Ocean (the Great Deep) and or where Hell is.  I think that's very likely rather than that they conceived of it as a ball where people were stuck to the "underside" of it.  As for the top part of the "sphere" perhaps they imagined more a convexity, or were taking into account the firmament or dome.

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Glass production proves Earth is flat
    « Reply #130 on: June 22, 2022, 06:07:11 AM »
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  • In 748, Pope St Zachary, aware of the old Pythagorean heresy that intelligent beings lived on other worlds, authorised Boniface, Bishop of Meinz and primate of Germany, to ‘take counsel’ and excommunicate the abbot of St. Peter’s Monastery in Salzburg – an Irishman called Virgil – based on rumours about his professing belief in people beyond the reach of the Church existing on the other side of the Earth (the Antipodes). As it turned out, the rumour was half right. Didn’t Christopher Columbus later discover such people when his voyages from 1492-1504 reached South America but not beyond the Church as it happened, for these people were introduced to Christianity, receiving baptism and Christ’s redemption. Whatever became of these charges is somewhat of a mystery. As it happened, Virgil ended up being made a bishop in 766.

    Long forgotten today, is another proposition condemned in 1459 by Pope Pius II, ‘That God created another world than this one,’ a censure that could be said to be a better example of the heresy of the Antipodes; lands containing intelligent creatures living beyond the reach of the Gospel as held by the Catholic Church, i.e., aliens. But again, Galileo’s reformation changed all that for churchmen:

    ‘LOOKING FOR ALIENS,’ by M. Wertheim. ‘Throughout his astronomical career, Father George Coyne, senior scientist at the Vatican Observatory Research Group, whose work has inadvertently dovetailed with our growing desire for extraterrestrial contact, a subject about which he remains optimistically equivocal…. Roger Angel says: “Before, you could only speculate about extraterrestrial life. Now we’re at a point where we can make telescopes with which we can actually go looking for life.” Looking out at the telescopes arrayed around us, Fr Coyne suggests that we might view stars as God’s sperm. Every sperm has the potential to produce life, he says. Father Coyne is confident that we are not alone. As a priest and a scientist, the marvel for him is the universe itself.’ -- Science & Spirit website.




    Online Tradman

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    Re: Glass production proves Earth is flat
    « Reply #131 on: June 22, 2022, 09:33:37 AM »
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  • In 748, Pope St Zachary, aware of the old Pythagorean heresy that intelligent beings lived on other worlds, authorised Boniface, Bishop of Meinz and primate of Germany, to ‘take counsel’ and excommunicate the abbot of St. Peter’s Monastery in Salzburg – an Irishman called Virgil – based on rumours about his professing belief in people beyond the reach of the Church existing on the other side of the Earth (the Antipodes). As it turned out, the rumour was half right. Didn’t Christopher Columbus later discover such people when his voyages from 1492-1504 reached South America but not beyond the Church as it happened, for these people were introduced to Christianity, receiving baptism and Christ’s redemption. Whatever became of these charges is somewhat of a mystery. As it happened, Virgil ended up being made a bishop in 766.

    Long forgotten today, is another proposition condemned in 1459 by Pope Pius II, ‘That God created another world than this one,’ a censure that could be said to be a better example of the heresy of the Antipodes; lands containing intelligent creatures living beyond the reach of the Gospel as held by the Catholic Church, i.e., aliens. But again, Galileo’s reformation changed all that for churchmen:

    ‘LOOKING FOR ALIENS,’ by M. Wertheim. ‘Throughout his astronomical career, Father George Coyne, senior scientist at the Vatican Observatory Research Group, whose work has inadvertently dovetailed with our growing desire for extraterrestrial contact, a subject about which he remains optimistically equivocal…. Roger Angel says: “Before, you could only speculate about extraterrestrial life. Now we’re at a point where we can make telescopes with which we can actually go looking for life.” Looking out at the telescopes arrayed around us, Fr Coyne suggests that we might view stars as God’s sperm. Every sperm has the potential to produce life, he says. Father Coyne is confident that we are not alone. As a priest and a scientist, the marvel for him is the universe itself.’ -- Science & Spirit website.

    Galileo's so called 'reformation' has been a metaphysical deformation of truth that permeates our culture to this day. In every sense of the word the globe is the great generator of revolution. Because most people believe in the globe, they now believe that the church is
     anti-science, stupid, and obviously not infallible because it was in error about the shape of earth. Eliminate the sphere and all sorts of little nasties dogging the church vanish into thin air: atheistic beginnings of the universe lose support, anitipodes go away, other distant worlds disappear, as does impossible to reach people on other planets, alien abductions, climate change, evolution, the Big Bang, population control, even blasphemous notions of "God's sperm"The globe is a big generator of revenue for the elite with which they incite fantasy religions conducive to that kind of universe. The globe, orphaned in space, naturally has a limited supply of water and energy running out, giving governments psychological advantage to assist them in promoting fear necessary for ruling with an iron grip. How thrilled they must be to be known as "globalists" protecting "mother earth".  Even Francis' enthronement of his climate-change naked icon giving birth to a globe would never have happened if people were loyal to God rather than globalist "science"              

    Offline St Giles

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    Re: Glass production proves Earth is flat
    « Reply #132 on: June 22, 2022, 02:22:05 PM »
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  • Just like those who believe in the ball earth, there isn't a consensus with regards to flat earth.  There is room for discussion and debate.

    Can you prove there is a south pole?

    Antarctica is a big piece to the puzzle.  People should go and explore it---oh wait, you can't. 

    See the video I posted above about restricted travel beyond the 60th parallel south.

    You can find much more on this by doing a search on Bitchute.

    Here are a couple more:
    14min


    10min 45sec
    https://www.bitchute.com/video/E4yZxHcTtxB3/
    What disagreements are there among ball earthers?

    Unfortunately, the south pole seems out of my practical reach.

    Do they shoot down any plane or drone that attempts to reach Antarctica? It's unfortunate that there is no inhabitable land that extends south as far as it does north. Someone could travel to the tip of South America and get a good view of the sky from a mountain top. As far as I could find with only a few minutes of research, there is an inconsistency regarding the length of days near the south pole. Wikipedia says, even in the summer, the cities at the southern tip of Chile get only a couple hours of daylight, while another website said they get just as much as the northern hemisphere. What neither website specifies is whether the length of day is based on day light, or visible sun exposure. Most cities down there are near sea level port cities surrounded by steep mountains that would block much of the sun. I can also think of some good arguments for limiting access to Antarctica, as far as foreign relations go.

    So far Antarctica seems to be the best argument for a flat earth, but it is inconclusive to me at this point.

    What about other planets? Can't we tell they are ball shaped via telescopes, with moons orbiting them? Why can they be globes, but not the Earth?
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Glass production proves Earth is flat
    « Reply #133 on: June 22, 2022, 04:16:06 PM »
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  • Unfortunately, the south pole seems out of my practical reach.

    And even if FEs could gather the funds to send an expedition, they wouldn't be allowed to go down there.  There is no doubt whatsoever that they're hiding something down there.  There were videos of guys in a boat trying to approach Antarctica only to be intercepted by an actual battleship and forced to turn around.  Seriously?  They patrol Anatarctic waters with battleships ... to keep the world safe for penguins?  There was another guy in a small plane who was intercepted by a fighter jet and accompanied back to their base.  He asked the commander if they would have shot him down had he not heeded their orders to turn around?  Commander said they would have.  Again, to protect some frozen wasteland from a bozo in a small plane?  In that latter case, it certainly wasn't because the man might have been endangering himself, since they were prepared to shoot him down.

    There's certainly SOMEthing down there they don't want people to know about.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Glass production proves Earth is flat
    « Reply #134 on: June 23, 2022, 03:59:33 PM »
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  • And even if FEs could gather the funds to send an expedition, they wouldn't be allowed to go down there.  There is no doubt whatsoever that they're hiding something down there.  There were videos of guys in a boat trying to approach Antarctica only to be intercepted by an actual battleship and forced to turn around.  Seriously?  They patrol Anatarctic waters with battleships ... to keep the world safe for penguins?  There was another guy in a small plane who was intercepted by a fighter jet and accompanied back to their base.  He asked the commander if they would have shot him down had he not heeded their orders to turn around?  Commander said they would have.  Again, to protect some frozen wasteland from a bozo in a small plane?  In that latter case, it certainly wasn't because the man might have been endangering himself, since they were prepared to shoot him down.

    There's certainly SOMEthing down there they don't want people to know about.
    Antarctica is one of those things that really raises a red flag for me on the subject. Strangely enough, I was reminded of this when watching one of the Pirates of the Caribbean movies a couple weeks ago (not proof, just interesting). Their world is flat, so they have to sail through what is basically the "ice wall" to the edge. It came across as one of those forms of programming that we all know Hollywood tends to do.

    "The declared enemies of God and His Church, heretics and schismatics, must be criticized as much as possible, as long as truth is not denied. It is a work of charity to shout: ‘Here is the wolf!’ when it enters the flock or anywhere else." -- Saint Francis de Sales

    "For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears:" [2 Timothy 4:3]