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Author Topic: Galileo was wrong and the Church was right to condemn him  (Read 6884 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Galileo was wrong and the Church was right to condemn him
« on: December 26, 2017, 05:42:06 PM »
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  • During my break, I had the opportunity to do some research about Galileo and reached some conclusions.  This is what I came up with:

    We often discuss matters of faith and morals in which the Church teachings are infallible and unchanging.  For example, the Eucharist will always be the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. Abortion will always be intrinsically evil. But teachings pertaining to natural science don’t work this way.  They can be changed when scientific knowledge changes. 

    St. Robert Bellarmine wrote about this specifically in relation to heliocentrism (reference) and later popes wrote of the general principle.

    Quote
    I say that if there were a true demonstration that the sun is at the center of the world and the earth in the third heaven, and that the sun does not circle the earth but the earth circles the sun, then one would have to proceed with great care in explaining the Scriptures that appear contrary, and say rather that we do not understand them than what is demonstrated is false. But I will not believe that there is such a demonstration, until it is shown to me . . . . and in case of doubt one must not abandon the Holy Scripture as interpreted by the Holy Fathers. 

    Galileo had not made a true demonstration that the earth circles the sun.  His model left certain observations unexplained and he made assertions that everyone today, geocentrist and heliocentrist alike, would reject.  For example, he said that tides were caused by the motion of the earth.  Whatever one thinks of subsequent developments in science, at that time, he had not established that his model was the best.

    In spite of this, he was pressuring the Church to reinterpret Scripture to support his theory and was even circulating his own ideas about how Scripture ought to be understood.  He was usurping the authority of the Church as the sole interpreter of Scripture.  And he was doing so at a period of history in which people were having wars over questions of this authority.  

    What he ought to have done was to present his ideas as a hypothetical model and allowed time for further study and development.  It was up to the Church to decide when the science in support of it was strong enough to merit a reconsideration of Scripture passages that seemed to support geocentrism.

    This did eventually happen and Pope Pius VII officially indicated the acceptablilty of heliocentrism in 1820 in this decree

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    The Assessor of the Holy Office has referred the request of Giuseppe Settele, Professor of Optics and Astronomy at La Sapienza University, regarding permission to publish his work Elements of Astronomy in which he espouses the common opinion of the astronomers of our time regarding the earth’s daily and yearly motions, to His Holiness through Divine Providence, Pope Pius VII. Previously, His Holiness had referred this request to the Supreme Sacred Congregation and concurrently to the consideration of the Most Eminent and Most Reverend General Cardinal Inquisitor. His Holiness has decreed that no obstacles exist for those who sustain Copernicus’ affirmation regarding the earth’s movement in the manner in which it is affirmed today, even by Catholic authors. He has, moreover, suggested the insertion of several notations into this work, aimed at demonstrating that the above mentioned affirmation [of Copernicus], as it is has come to be understood, does not present any difficulties; difficulties that existed in times past, prior to the subsequent astronomical observations that have now occurred. [Pope Pius VII] has also recommended that the implementation [of these decisions] be given to the Cardinal Secretary of the Supreme Sacred Congregation and Master of the Sacred Apostolic Palace. He is now appointed the task of bringing to an end any concerns and criticisms regarding the printing of this book, and, at the same time, ensuring that in the future, regarding the publication of such works, permission is sought from the Cardinal Vicar whose signature will not be given without the authorization of the Superior of his Order.

    It should be obvious from this that the earlier condemnation of heliocentrism was not a timeless teaching but one contingent on circuмstances which later changed.  The next edition of the Index published after this decree, in 1835, no longer contained any of the previously prohibited books on heliocentrism.  

    Whatever conclusions one draws about the science in support of these models,  there are no grounds for seeing heliocentrism as a condemned view forbidden to Catholics or for claiming geocentrism as the only permissible Catholic view.  


    Offline roscoe

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    Re: Galileo was wrong and the Church was right to condemn him
    « Reply #1 on: December 26, 2017, 06:01:40 PM »
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  • Helio & Geo-centrism are Both wrong as S & E have both been shown by science to be in 2 types of motion--- that is LATERAL as well as rotation.... :cheers:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Galileo was wrong and the Church was right to condemn him
    « Reply #2 on: December 27, 2017, 04:49:02 AM »
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  • As I showed, Catholics are free to accept the modern understanding of heliocentrism.  We are not required to interpret literally Scriptures that appear to support geocentrism.  On the contrary, Pope Leo XIII, wrote in Providentisssimus Deus 

    Quote
    To understand how just is the rule here formulated we must remember, first, that the sacred writers, or to speak more accurately, the Holy Ghost "Who spoke by them, did not intend to teach men these things (that is to say, the essential nature of the things of the visible universe), things in no way profitable unto salvation."(53) Hence they did not seek to penetrate the secrets of nature, but rather described and dealt with things in more or less figurative language, or in terms which were commonly used at the time, and which in many instances are in daily use at this day, even by the most eminent men of science. Ordinary speech primarily and properly describes what comes under the senses; and somewhat in the same way the sacred writers-as the Angelic Doctor also reminds us - `went by what sensibly appeared,"(54) or put down what God, speaking to men, signified, in the way men could understand and were accustomed to.

    There is, however, an idea that has been frequently linked to heliocentrism that Catholics ought to reject and refute.  We can call this "the Galileo myth."  Many people portray Galileo as a brave champion of truth and reason who proved that the earth circled the sun and was persecuted for this by an ignorant and superstitious Church.  This narrative and its variations are falsehoods, created as anti-Catholic propaganda.  We can add Pope John Paul II's apology to Galileo to the list of JPII's problematic actions, since it served to reinforce this myth.

    Many of the negative comments regarding heliocentrism that appear on this forum, while not applicable to heliocentrism in itself, can be truly said of this Galileo myth.  It is a false and evil idea that deserves condemnation.

    Offline Truth is Eternal

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    Re: Galileo was wrong and the Church was right to condemn him
    « Reply #3 on: December 27, 2017, 09:58:56 AM »
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  • As I showed, Catholics are free to accept the modern understanding of heliocentrism.  We are not required to interpret literally Scriptures that appear to support geocentrism.  On the contrary, Pope Leo XIII, wrote in Providentisssimus Deus

    There is, however, an idea that has been frequently linked to heliocentrism that Catholics ought to reject and refute.  We can call this "the Galileo myth."  Many people portray Galileo as a brave champion of truth and reason who proved that the earth circled the sun and was persecuted for this by an ignorant and superstitious Church.  This narrative and its variations are falsehoods, created as anti-Catholic propaganda.  We can add Pope John Paul II's apology to Galileo to the list of JPII's problematic actions, since it served to reinforce this myth.

    Many of the negative comments regarding heliocentrism that appear on this forum, while not applicable to heliocentrism in itself, can be truly said of this Galileo myth.  It is a false and evil idea that deserves condemnation.
    CATHOLOICS' ARE NOT ALLOWED TO INTERPRET SCRIPTURES THROUGH FREEMASONS BY BELIEVING THEIR GLOBE EARTH LIES. GOD WILL NOT BE MOCKED!  :really-mad2: :fryingpan:
    "I Think it is Time Cathinfo Has a Public Profession of Belief." "Thank you for publicly affirming the necessity of believing, without innovations, all Infallibly Defined Dogmas of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church."

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Galileo was wrong and the Church was right to condemn him
    « Reply #4 on: December 27, 2017, 10:24:53 AM »
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  • I don't get it, are you saying that Pope Leo XIII was a Freemason?
    Ironically enough, Pope Leo XIII probably wrote more than any other pope condemning Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ.  


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Galileo was wrong and the Church was right to condemn him
    « Reply #5 on: December 27, 2017, 10:39:46 AM »
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  • This is true, but I'm not sure what he meant. I was legitimately asking what he meant because it sounded like he was saying that Pope Leo was a freemason.
    Yes, it sounded that way to me too, but obviously it does not make sense to claim that Pope Leo or the Catholics who accept his official teaching are Freemasons.  TiE must have meant something else.

    Offline roscoe

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    Re: Galileo was wrong and the Church was right to condemn him
    « Reply #6 on: December 27, 2017, 10:51:08 AM »
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  • CATHOLOICS' ARE NOT ALLOWED TO INTERPRET SCRIPTURES THROUGH FREEMASONS BY BELIEVING THEIR GLOBE EARTH LIES. GOD WILL NOT BE MOCKED! :really-mad2: :fryingpan:
    This post is very confusing in addition to the fact that it doesn't make any sense... :confused:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline RoughAshlar

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    Re: Galileo was wrong and the Church was right to condemn him
    « Reply #7 on: December 27, 2017, 11:09:09 AM »
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  • I don't get it, are you saying that Pope Leo XIII was a Freemason?
    No, I think he is saying that any personal interpretation of the scriptures that fit 'freemasonic' view of globe is a mockery of God.  Leo XIII wrote several works condemning Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ based in part on the hoax of Leo Taxil.


    Offline RoughAshlar

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    Re: Galileo was wrong and the Church was right to condemn him
    « Reply #8 on: December 27, 2017, 11:10:39 AM »
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  • Regardless, I have a hard time with only interpreting Scriptures literally.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Galileo was wrong and the Church was right to condemn him
    « Reply #9 on: December 27, 2017, 11:43:07 AM »
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  • Regardless, I have a hard time with only interpreting Scriptures literally.
    I recommend that you read Providentissimus Deus for an explanation of how Catholics ought to interpret Scripture.  Personally, I find it all very wise and reasonable.
    http://w2.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_l-xiii_enc_18111893_providentissimus-deus.html

    Offline Jovita

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    Re: Galileo was wrong and the Church was right to condemn him
    « Reply #10 on: December 27, 2017, 11:49:07 AM »
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  • Galileo was wrong and the Church was right to condemn him. Correct.

    Giving 'science' carta blanca in matters of faith and practice is what derailed the Church. 


    Offline roscoe

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    Re: Galileo was wrong and the Church was right to condemn him
    « Reply #11 on: December 27, 2017, 11:53:20 AM »
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  • No, I think he is saying that any personal interpretation of the scriptures that fit 'freemasonic' view of globe is a mockery of God.  Leo XIII wrote several works condemning Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ based in part on the hoax of Leo Taxil.
    Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ is not a hoax... :heretic:

    The hoax of L Taxil is claiming that Card Rampolla( Sec of State to Pope Leo) is somehow a 'secret occult mason & GM of OTO' LOL
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline RoughAshlar

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    Re: Galileo was wrong and the Church was right to condemn him
    « Reply #12 on: December 27, 2017, 11:57:59 AM »
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  • I recommend that you read Providentissimus Deus for an explanation of how Catholics ought to interpret Scripture.  Personally, I find it all very wise and reasonable.
    http://w2.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_l-xiii_enc_18111893_providentissimus-deus.html
    I'm on board with you about Providentissimus Deus.  I was referring to the way TiE interprets the Bible

    Offline RoughAshlar

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    Re: Galileo was wrong and the Church was right to condemn him
    « Reply #13 on: December 27, 2017, 12:08:24 PM »
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  • Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ is not a hoax... :heretic:

    The hoax of L Taxil is claiming that Card Rampolla( Sec of State to Pope Leo) is somehow a 'secret occult mason & GM of OTO' LOL
    To clarify: 
    1) I was not claiming that Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ is a hoax.
    2) 
    No, I think he is saying that any personal interpretation of the scriptures that fit 'freemasonic' view of globe is a mockery of God. 
    Even though it was two separate sentences, it should have been two separate posts.  I was defending Truth is Eternal and believe that I was clarifying his statement that Leo XIII was not a freemason.
    3)
     Leo XIII wrote several works condemning Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ based in part on the hoax of Leo Taxil.

    Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ is not a hoax... :heretic:

    The hoax of L Taxil is claiming that Card Rampolla( Sec of State to Pope Leo) is somehow a 'secret occult mason & GM of OTO' LOL

    Leo Taxil was a scam artist with a vendetta against the Church.  What I was referring to with Leo Taxil was that he had printed "secret' masonic accounts from a lady that claimed to survive ritualistic/sɛҳuąƖ/conjuring/murder and magics by the freemasons.  He got to meet with Leo XIII and was paid by the Vatican to continue his works.  When he ran out of material, he announced in a theater that it was all hoax to slander the Church (who he hated) and the freemason (who kicked him out).  The transcripts of the big reveal are online somewhere, I read them years ago.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Galileo was wrong and the Church was right to condemn him
    « Reply #14 on: December 27, 2017, 12:08:37 PM »
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  • I'm on board with you about Providentissimus Deus.  I was referring to the way TiE interprets the Bible
    If he is, in fact, rejecting the teaching of Pope Leo XIII, of course his views are seriously flawed.  But I am not really sure what TiE is trying to say.