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Author Topic: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas  (Read 8757 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
« Reply #45 on: October 10, 2018, 06:22:20 PM »
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  • Jayne,

    I refer to your long post.

    It is not clear that the false theory is referring to the flat earth one. Even though it comes after.

    Even if it were, you still miss the point that he was simply representing Aristotle's argument.

    This is not relativism as you claim.

    This is all the more clear because when St. Thomas talks about theological matters he clearly gives his opinion. Whereas this text is not so clear. You would know this if you took the time to read other writings of St. Thomas.
    In the Summa Theologica (which I have read and studied a lot), St. Thomas gives the arguments of others in virtually every question he examines.  It is the basic structure of the Summa:

    Question - the topic under discussion, given in question form
    Objections - opinions of others
    "On the contrary" (sed contra) - statement of his own view, often citing an authority in agreement
    "I respond that" (respondeo ) - an argument that supports his view
    Replies to objections - counter-arguments against the wrong views of others

    It is very clear from the structure when he is giving an opinion that he disagrees with and when he is saying what he believes himself. Similarly the structure of De Coelo indicates which is which.  Much like the Summa, it starts with a section on opinions he disagrees with, followed by his own belief.  The flat earth argument is in the section on false opinions.

    In the Summa, he never refers to an opinion that he disagrees with as the truth.  He only uses the word truth (veritas) to mean objective truth, never to mean the truth as someone saw it, i.e. an opinion.  He wrote hundreds of years before people started abusing the word "truth" like this.

    St. Thomas begins the section on Aristotle's beliefs about the earth with: "After pursuing the opinions of others concerning the earth, the Philosopher here determines about it according to the truth." There is no reasonable way to understand this other than as a statement concerning objective truth.  He is stating that Aristotle is teaching the truth, i.e. St. Thomas agrees with him.  This is not "simply representing Aristotle's argument."  St. Thomas is clearly identifying that argument as the truth.

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #46 on: October 10, 2018, 06:36:14 PM »
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  • No, the author is not expressing his own personal "surprise." 
    That is not what it says.
    It says the queen, friar and cardinal were amazed to hear Columbus say earth was flat.
    In fact, the author wonders aloud with his QUESTION asking "didn't theological textbooks of the time say earth was a globe??"
    Obviously,  since the author DOES NOT KNOW WHAT THE TEXTBOOKS SAID, the obly possible conclusion is that they did not say earth was a globe. Otherwise, there is no reason for Isabella's, the friar's, and the Cardinal's SURPRISE.
    The author of that ecclesiastical review article introduces a "beautiful pageant, The Discovery of America" by a Dr. Coakley, in which Columbus says various things to a prior, the Queen, and a cardinal. I'm going to assume this pageant by Coakley is a play or story.

    After relating parts of the story, the ecclestical review author begins to comment on it:
    Quote
    Now while the surprise of the Queen at hearing a cosmical theory which may not have passed from the University hall into the palace, was natural enough, a prince of the Church and a prior of a monastery ought not to have been unaware of the opinion held by many of the learned of their day that the earth of ours is really a sphere. For were not St. Thomas's Summa Theologica as well as Aristotle's Physics text-books at the time in the hands of university professors and students?
    The question at the end is clearly a rhetorical question. The author is saying these textbooks existed and people in those states of life would have known about them. He goes on to reference other works of St. Thomas that say the same thing. He refers to the opinion of the learned of the day that the earth is a sphere - that is, what the educated at the time believed. Since this was a common opinion among the educated, it wouldn't actually have been a surprise to them to hear it from a Columbus.

    I'm just posting this to explain what the ecclesiastical review author is clearly saying. I'm not affirming that it's right or it's wrong. Strictly speaking the letter is only about what people 100 years ago thought people 500+ years ago were aware of. I don't think this one letter to one journal a century ago has any significant bearing on the FE argument itself.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #47 on: October 10, 2018, 07:04:36 PM »
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  • In fact, the author wonders aloud with his QUESTION asking "didn't theological textbooks of the time say earth was a globe??"
    Obviously,  since the author DOES NOT KNOW WHAT THE TEXTBOOKS SAID, the obly possible conclusion is that they did not say earth was a globe. Otherwise, there is no reason for Isabella's, the friar's, and the Cardinal's SURPRISE.
    It was a rhetorical question.  He knew the answer and gave a detailed explanation of it.
    I'm just going to go through the entire letter, giving a "translation" of it.  

    In his beautiful pageant The Discovery of America Dr. Coakley introduces Columbus as saying to the prior of La Rabida 
    "... My studies prove that our dwelling place is round ". 
    To which the gentle friar answers ("in great surprise"), 
    "You say 'tis round !" 
    And then Columbus : 
    "As round as is the ball beneath yon towering cross ". 
    Afterward, in the court scene when Isabella is told that Columbus holds the earth to be round, she is greatly amazed, and even the Cardinal shakes his head dubiously. 

    The author, JFS, starts by describing and quoting a history book by a Dr. Coakley, which portrays Catholics as believing in a flat earth.  

    Now while the surprise of the Queen at hearing a cosmical theory which may not have passed from the University hall into the palace, was natural enough, a prince of the Church and the prior of a monastery ought not to have been unaware of the opinion held by many of the learned of their day that this earth of ours is really a sphere. For were not St. Thomas's Summa Theologica as well as Aristotle's Physics text-books at the time in the hands of university professors and students?

    JFS expresses his disbelief of the claims of Dr. Coakley.  JFS concedes that Queen Isabella might have been ignorant, but a Cardinal and a prior of that time would typically have a university education and know what was taught there.  

    In both these familiar instruments of knowledge the sphericity of the earth is explicitly maintained. The Angelic Doctor mentions the subject in two passages of the Summa (P. I, Q. I, A. I, ad 2um, and P. I-II, Q. LIV, A. 2 ad 2um) ; also in his commentary on the Sentences(II, D, 24, Q. 2, 2, 5um) ; in his commentary on the Post. Anal. (L. 41), on the Phys. (II, L. 3) ; and more at length in the De Coelo et Mundo (L. II, L. 26, 27, 28). One citation from the Summa will suffice for the present purpose.

     JFS lists all the places in the works of St. Thomas where he mentions that the earth is a sphere.  

    St. Thomas is answering an objection against his conclusion that the principle upon which habits are classified is their formal object. It is urged that one and the same object may fall under different habits of science; "sicut terram esse rotundam demonstrat naturalis et astrologus". He replies : "Dicendum quod terram esse rotundam per aliud medium demonstrat naturalis, et per aliud astrologus. Astrologus enim hoc demonstrat per media mathematica, sicut per figuras eclipsium, vel per aliud hujusmodi. Naturalis vero hoc demonstrat per medium naturale, sicut per motum gravium ad medium, vel per aliud hujusmodi." And the rest (I, Q. LIV, A. 2 ad 2um). 
    In other words, St. Thomas declares that Aristotle's assertion that the earth is round is capable of proof by two middle terms. The astronomer derives his argument from  mathematics, that is, from the round shape of the earth cast upon the disk of the moon during an eclipse. The natural philosopher derives his argument from the physical phenomenon of gravitation, namely that "heavy" bodies tend toward the centre of the earth; therefore the earth must be round. 

    JFS gives as an example a detailed quote and explanation from the Summa. 

    That the roundness here meant is certainly not that of a flat disk, but that of a ball or sphere is abundantly manifest from the teaching both of Aristotle and of Aquinas which is developed at some length in the Lectiones (26, 27, 28 ) on the second book of the De Coelo et Mundo

    JFS gives further evidence of what St. Thomas believed and taught by citing De Coelo.  

    Moreover, both these venerable teachers thought it probable that the ocean stretching beyond Gibraltar merged into the Mare Indicuм, which washed the eastern shores of India; and since this opinion was laid down in the second book of the Philosopher's De Coelo et Mundo, commented upon by Aquinas (Lect. 28), it is not so surprising that the great Genoese thought the earth was round and that by sailing westward from the pillars of Hercules he would reach the shores of India; or that until his death Columbus believed that he had actually landed upon the Asian continent. The surprise is that the ecclesiastics of his day are thought not to have known the teachings of their school books. 

    JFS concludes by describing the belief of both Aristotle and Aquinas that sailing westward from Europe would lead to the Indian Ocean.  JFS says it is not surprising that Columbus would believe this, since it was taught by the eminent authorities of his day.  In contrast, JFS says that Coakley's claims are surprising, since it is not likely that educated Churchmen would not have known what was taught in the universities.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #48 on: October 10, 2018, 07:26:27 PM »
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  • The author of that ecclesiastical review article introduces a "beautiful pageant, The Discovery of America" by a Dr. Coakley, in which Columbus says various things to a prior, the Queen, and a cardinal. I'm going to assume this pageant by Coakley is a play or story.

    I was thinking it was a history book, but I looked it up and it was a historical play.  It was written in 1917, the year before the article by JFS.

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #49 on: October 10, 2018, 07:30:14 PM »
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  • I must admit, I find it difficult to believe that a priest would make the sort of mistakes evident in the article ascribed to a resistance priest in the OP.

    Perhaps the people claiming it is a resistance priest are honestly mistaken and it was planted by an anti-resistance author with the intent of making the resistance look foolish and poorly educated.

    I too personally have doubts this was written by a priest, as I expressed in reply #2 to this thread. But I don't rule it out.

    I do not personally know any resistance priests trained exclusively in a non-SSPX seminary, so I can't say much about that, but many of the resistance priests were SSPX priests, and the SSPX seminary formation  is not currently at a high educational level. The seminarians are not systemically exposed to philosophy and theology in a structured way by an expert in the field. Except for Econe in the early years, the instructors at SSPX seminaries are themselves trained in the SSPX, and simply do not have the breadth and depth of understanding that someone with a canonical degree in theology would have had 50 years ago.

    The consequence is that some topics are overemphasized while others are missed, leaving misunderstandings and gaps in their knowledge. Unfortunately, that means they are more susceptible to being misled. The devil knows quite well how to exploit such gaps and misunderstandings and is sure to try them.


    Offline hismajesty

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #50 on: October 11, 2018, 10:51:18 AM »
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  • In the Summa Theologica (which I have read and studied a lot), St. Thomas gives the arguments of others in virtually every question he examines.  It is the basic structure of the Summa:

    Question - the topic under discussion, given in question form
    Objections - opinions of others
    "On the contrary" (sed contra) - statement of his own view, often citing an authority in agreement
    "I respond that" (respondeo ) - an argument that supports his view
    Replies to objections - counter-arguments against the wrong views of others

    It is very clear from the structure when he is giving an opinion that he disagrees with and when he is saying what he believes himself. Similarly the structure of De Coelo indicates which is which.  Much like the Summa, it starts with a section on opinions he disagrees with, followed by his own belief.  The flat earth argument is in the section on false opinions.

    In the Summa, he never refers to an opinion that he disagrees with as the truth.  He only uses the word truth (veritas) to mean objective truth, never to mean the truth as someone saw it, i.e. an opinion.  He wrote hundreds of years before people started abusing the word "truth" like this.

    St. Thomas begins the section on Aristotle's beliefs about the earth with: "After pursuing the opinions of others concerning the earth, the Philosopher here determines about it according to the truth." There is no reasonable way to understand this other than as a statement concerning objective truth.  He is stating that Aristotle is teaching the truth, i.e. St. Thomas agrees with him.  This is not "simply representing Aristotle's argument."  St. Thomas is clearly identifying that argument as the truth.


    To repeat myself, it may be the opinion of Aristotle that it was false, but not necessarily that of St. Thomas. It is not the same  structure as the summa, so please don't try to give people the impression it is. That would be dishonest. And of course Jayne, you are never dishonest.

    Remember also that this is in the realm of philosophy/natural science. It is not theological.

    St. Thomas had more room to discuss things without making his opinion clear therefore.

    He does not say authoritatively that the earth is round. It seems more the opposite in fact. Especially considering what the Fathers taught on this issue. So unlikely he would diverge from them since he knew them so well.
    "....I am at a loss what to say respecting those who, when they have once erred, consistently persevere in their folly, and defend one vain thing by another" - Church Father Lactentius on the globe earth

    Offline hismajesty

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #51 on: October 11, 2018, 10:52:10 AM »
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  • Unfortunately, that means they are more susceptible to being misled. The devil knows quite well how to exploit such gaps and misunderstandings and is sure to try them.

    Not sure if you could sound any more smug and condescending.
    "....I am at a loss what to say respecting those who, when they have once erred, consistently persevere in their folly, and defend one vain thing by another" - Church Father Lactentius on the globe earth

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #52 on: October 11, 2018, 01:44:32 PM »
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  • To repeat myself, it may be the opinion of Aristotle that it was false, but not necessarily that of St. Thomas. It is not the same  structure as the summa, so please don't try to give people the impression it is. That would be dishonest. And of course Jayne, you are never dishonest.

    Remember also that this is in the realm of philosophy/natural science. It is not theological.

    St. Thomas had more room to discuss things without making his opinion clear therefore.

    He does not say authoritatively that the earth is round. It seems more the opposite in fact. Especially considering what the Fathers taught on this issue. So unlikely he would diverge from them since he knew them so well.
    St. Thomas is a clear, logical writer who presents his ideas systematically, whether in the Summa or elsewhere.  While he does not always use the same structure, he does not randomly stick an idea he agrees with among those that he labels as false opinions.  Each lecture in De Coelo starts by saying what he has already covered and what he is about to cover.  He described the lecture in which he wrote about flat earth as being about false theories.  His opinion on this is completely clear.

    It is quite true that he does not write authoritatively on matters of science.  You are perfectly free to disagree with his view that the earth is a sphere.  But it is intellectually dishonest to pretend that this is not his view.  St. Thomas clearly and repeatedly says that Aristotle  "determines the truth" about the earth.  He is not merely describing Aristotle's views, but is identifying them, explicitly including spherical earth, as the truth.  


    Offline hismajesty

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #53 on: October 11, 2018, 03:18:24 PM »
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  • St. Thomas is a clear, logical writer who presents his ideas systematically, whether in the Summa or elsewhere.  While he does not always use the same structure, he does not randomly stick an idea he agrees with among those that he labels as false opinions.  Each lecture in De Coelo starts by saying what he has already covered and what he is about to cover.  He described the lecture in which he wrote about flat earth as being about false theories.  His opinion on this is completely clear.

    It is quite true that he does not write authoritatively on matters of science.  You are perfectly free to disagree with his view that the earth is a sphere.  But it is intellectually dishonest to pretend that this is not his view.  St. Thomas clearly and repeatedly says that Aristotle  "determines the truth" about the earth.  He is not merely describing Aristotle's views, but is identifying them, explicitly including spherical earth, as the truth. 

    Jayne,
    It is clear he is only representing Aristotles argument. You are trying to make things fit with your false thesis that everybody agreed with the sphere heresy in the middle ages. They did not.

    Have a look at this map http://flatearthtrads.forumga.net/t264-flat-earth-with-antipodes

    Does this look like a sphere to you? This is what people in the middle ages thought the earth looked like. A flat circle.

    And this is from the 15th century http://flatearthtrads.forumga.net/t141-hieronymus-bosch-15th-century-painter-flat-earth-painting


    Jayne my dear....
    I could do this all day....

    <blockquote class="imgur-embed-pub" lang="en" data-id="LVt62UW"><a href="//imgur.com/LVt62UW">All Day[/url]<script async src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>




    "....I am at a loss what to say respecting those who, when they have once erred, consistently persevere in their folly, and defend one vain thing by another" - Church Father Lactentius on the globe earth

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #54 on: October 11, 2018, 03:41:55 PM »
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  • Jayne,
    It is clear he is only representing Aristotles argument. You are trying to make things fit with your false thesis that everybody agreed with the sphere heresy in the middle ages. They did not.
    If it were really so clear that St. Thomas did not agree with Aristotle, why is the anonymous resistance priest the only person who ever claimed this?  The priest who wrote the tradidi article and countless scholars understand it the way that I have explained.  Most people understand that saying that something is the truth is the same as agreeing with it.  St. Thomas agreed with what Aristotle said about the earth, including that it was a sphere. 




    By Alexander Franke (Ossiostborn) - Own work, CC BY-SA 2.0 de, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=1659761

    Quote
    The Erdapfel (Germanlit. earth apple) is a terrestrial globe produced by Martin Behaim from 1490–1492. The Erdapfel is the oldest surviving terrestrial globe. It is constructed of a laminated linen ball in two halves, reinforced with wood and overlaid with a map painted by Georg Glockendon.[1]
    The Americas are not included, as Columbus returned to Spain no sooner than March 1493. The globe shows an enlarged Eurasian continent and an empty ocean between Europe and Asia. The mythical Saint Brendan's Island is included. Cipangu (Japan) is oversized and well south of its true position; Martellus's map is followed in developing an enormous phantom peninsula east of the Golden Chersonese (Malaysia).
    The idea to call the globe "apple" may be related to the Reichsapfel ("Imperial Apple", Globus cruciger) which was also kept in Nuremberg along with the Imperial Regalia (Reichskleinodien).

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #55 on: October 11, 2018, 09:16:42 PM »
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  • .
    I too personally have doubts this was written by a priest, as I expressed in reply #2 to this thread. But I don't rule it out.

    I do not personally know any resistance priests trained exclusively in a non-SSPX seminary, so I can't say much about that, but many of the resistance priests were SSPX priests, and the SSPX seminary formation  is not currently at a high educational level. The seminarians are not systemically exposed to philosophy and theology in a structured way by an expert in the field. Except for Econe in the early years, the instructors at SSPX seminaries are themselves trained in the SSPX, and simply do not have the breadth and depth of understanding that someone with a canonical degree in theology would have had 50 years ago.

    The consequence is that some topics are overemphasized while others are missed, leaving misunderstandings and gaps in their knowledge. Unfortunately, that means they are more susceptible to being misled. The devil knows quite well how to exploit such gaps and misunderstandings and is sure to try them.
    .
    .
    While the SSPX seminaries have been the only place for the training of resistance priests, that's beginning to change, fortunately.
    In the meantime, the deficiency of a fully rounded education which you mention is a weakness, to be sure.
    However, it would require a nearly complete ignorance of the most basic principles of thought in our age for any priest to fail this way.
    For a priest to believe the earth is "flat" he would have to have grown up in a vacuum of ordinary experience.
    .
    The logic classes they teach in philosophy at SSPX seminaries would expose any student to the basics to avert that possibility.
    And there are other courses as well, history, cosmology, geometry, and of course the Summa of St. Thomas. 
    There is no way any seminarian could make it through those courses while all along rejecting their effect = being able to THINK.
    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #56 on: October 11, 2018, 09:21:54 PM »
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  • .
    Flat-earthdom syndromers repeatedly remind everyone of their inability to think:
    .

    .
    While there is no requirement for them to prove their inability to think, they somehow feel compelled to keep demonstrating it!
    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #57 on: October 11, 2018, 09:39:28 PM »
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  • .
    Jaynek's quote containing this:
    .
    The Americas are not included, as Columbus returned to Spain no sooner than March 1493. The globe shows an enlarged Eurasian continent and an empty ocean between Europe and Asia. The mythical Saint Brendan's Island is included. Cipangu (Japan) is oversized and well south of its true position; Martellus's map is followed in developing an enormous phantom peninsula east of the Golden Chersonese (Malaysia).

    .
    When Columbus sailed, he was fully expecting to encounter Japan or eastern Asia, but returned thinking what he had found was actually the various islands outlying India (perhaps Indonesia or Philippines as we know them today), since the inhabitants did not appear to be Asian people and more resembled the natives of India, which is why the indigenous American natives were called Indians. Columbus had no idea there was an entire continent system (North and South America) standing in the way of his voyage to the Spice Islands (where Magellan's ships eventually managed to encounter years later).
    .
    The mythical St. Brendan's Island could very well have been North America, since it is believed that Brendan the Navigator had found his way to cross the Atlantic to the shores of Newfoundland or New England. But the overall shape of the so-called island was a matter of utter conjecture, thus the completely inaccurate shape on this now ancient globe.
    .
    The lesson to learn here for us is that when your information is incomplete or your navigational methods and data is imprecise or worse there is no end to the mistakes you can make in your conclusions, mistakes such as the one you make by saying the earth is "flat."
    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #58 on: October 11, 2018, 09:56:03 PM »
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  • .
    Jayne,
    It is clear he is only representing Aristotles argument. 
    .
    .
    How can you expect to have any credibility when you can't even manage to correctly place an apostrophe? 
    "Aristotles argument?" How many Aristotles were there?
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #59 on: October 11, 2018, 09:59:09 PM »
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  • However, it would require a nearly complete ignorance of the most basic principles of thought in our age for any priest to fail this way.
    .
    Yes, I agree it would take an extreme failure in education to fail in the way you are thinking of. In practice, some other issues would likely appear well before a priest were to "fail this way" specifically.