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Author Topic: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas  (Read 4483 times)

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Offline hismajesty

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Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2018, 06:28:58 AM »
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  • this priest has read the ENTIRE docuмent, which I doubt she has, and shown that the context is such that St. ...
    "....I am at a loss what to say respecting those who, when they have once erred, consistently persevere in their folly, and defend one vain thing by another" - Church Father Lactentius on the globe earth


    Offline hismajesty

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #31 on: October 10, 2018, 06:35:25 AM »
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  • This is a straw man.  I never claimed that using the word "probat" shows that St. Thomas agrees.  I said that referring to Aristotle's position as truth (veritas) shows that Thomas agrees with it.  Under what circuмstances does a person say that something is the truth while disagreeing with it?



    you went on to use probat.

    he is referring to the truth as Aristotle saw it. Not as he did. It's called playing devils advocate.
    "....I am at a loss what to say respecting those who, when they have once erred, consistently persevere in their folly, and defend one vain thing by another" - Church Father Lactentius on the globe earth


    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #32 on: October 10, 2018, 10:06:13 AM »
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  • .
    The offending article, which flat-earthdom syndromers love to hate:
    .
    https://tradidi.com/st-thomas-held-and-taught-that-the-earth-is-round
    .
    St. Thomas Held and Taught that the Earth is Round
    [^ The title ^ found in the source book, published in 1918]

    Submitted by Admin on 12 April 2018



    To the Editor, The Ecclesiastical Review.

    In his beautiful pageant, The Discovery of America, Dr. Coakley introduces Columbus as saying to the prior of La Rabida

    "... My studies prove that our dwelling place is round ".

    To which the gentle friar answers ("in great surprise"),

    "You say 'tis round !"

    And then Columbus :

    "As round as is the ball beneath yon towering cross ".

    Afterward, in the court scene when Isabella is told that Columbus holds the earth to be round, she is greatly amazed, and even the Cardinal shakes his head dubiously.

    Now while the surprise of the Queen at hearing a cosmical theory which may not have passed from the University hall into the palace, was natural enough, a prince of the Church and the prior of a monastery ought not to have been unaware of the opinion held by many of the learned of their day that this earth of ours is really a sphere. For were not St. Thomas's Summa Theologica as well as Aristotle's Physics text-books at the time in the hands of university professors and students?

    In both these familiar instruments of knowledge the sphericity of the earth is explicitly maintained. The Angelic Doctor mentions the subject in two passages of the Summa (P. I, Q. I, A. I, ad 2um, and P. I-II, Q. LIV, A. 2 ad 2um) ; also in his commentary on the Sentences(II, D, 24, Q. 2, 2, 5um) ; in his commentary on the Post. Anal. (L. 41), on the Phys. (II, L. 3) ; and more at length in the De Coelo et Mundo (L. II, L. 26, 27, 28 ). One citation from the Summa will suffice for the present purpose.

    St. Thomas is answering an objection against his conclusion that the principle upon which habits are classified is their formal object. It is urged that one and the same object may fall under different habits of science; "sicut terram esse rotundam demonstrat naturalis et astrologus". He replies : "Dicendum quod terram esse rotundam per aliud medium demonstrat naturalis, et per aliud astrologus. Astrologus enim hoc demonstrat per media mathematica, sicut per figuras eclipsium, vel per aliud hujusmodi. Naturalis vero hoc demonstrat per medium naturale, sicut per motum gravium ad medium, vel per aliud hujusmodi." And the rest (I, Q. LIV, A. 2 ad 2um).

    In other words, St. Thomas declares that Aristotle's assertion that the earth is round is capable of proof by two middle terms. The astronomer derives his argument from  mathematics, that is, from the round shape of the earth cast upon the disk of the moon during an eclipse. The natural philosopher derives his argument from the physical phenomenon of gravitation, namely that "heavy" bodies tend toward the centre of the earth; therefore the earth must be round.

    That the roundness here meant is certainly not that of a flat disk, but that of a ball or sphere is abundantly manifest from the teaching both of Aristotle and of Aquinas which is developed at some length in the Lectiones (26, 27, 28 ) on the second book of the De Coelo et Mundo.

    Moreover, both these venerable teachers thought it probable that the ocean stretching beyond Gibraltar merged into the Mare Indicuм, which washed the eastern shores of India; and since this opinion was laid down in the second book of the Philosopher's De Coelo et Mundo, commented upon by Aquinas (Lect. 28 ), it is not so surprising that the great Genoese thought the earth was round and that by sailing westward from the pillars of Hercules he would reach the shores of India; or that until his death Columbus believed that he had actually landed upon the Asian continent. The surprise is that the ecclesiastics of his day are thought not to have known the teachings of their school books.

    J. F. S.
    It's funny that your source posted says that Queen Isabella and the Cardinal believed the earth was flat, since you and Jaynek have claimed for months that "no learned Catholic ever believed the earth was flat." 
    You two both fell for Jeffrey Burton Russell's lie that Columbus and the people of the time did not really think earth was flat. 
    Your lie is no undoneby your own quote which states the queen, the friar, and the cardinal were "greatly amazed" in the court when Columbus told them earth was "round, like a ball."

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #33 on: October 10, 2018, 11:50:01 AM »
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  • Most people have switched off at this point, but for those who are still reading...

    This is not true Jayne. The quote you give appears long after the flat earth point he makes. There is no clear connection at all showing that it refers to the flat earth argument. This is obvious who looks it up and reads it. It only took me five minutes to find both the quotes.

    All it refers to is those theories which he said were false. And the flat earth is not one of them.

    Sorry Jayne. Nice try.

    Next please!
    The flat earth argument appears at 493 and St. Thomas refers to it as one of the false theories at 494.  He wrote only one sentence between saying that some people believed the earth was flat and describing the preceding section as dealing with false theories.

    You are perhaps confused by this particular translation's format of De Coelo. It interposes the original passages from Aristotle with St. Thomas's commentary on them. These sections are not written by St. Thomas.  To understand the flow of his argument one should skip them.

    In Lecture 21 St. Thomas comments on a passage from Aristotle giving an overview of the opinions of others at the time of Aristotle. It begins at 486 with "After presenting opinions about the position of the earth, the Philosopher here presents opinions about its motion and rest."   As you can see, he summarizes  previous points and introduces the upcoming ones.

    Lecture 21, which includes the flat earth theory, ends at 493.  It is, obviously, followed by Lecture 22. (This translation shows the passage from Aristotle that St. Thomas will be discussing at the beginning of the lecture. It has a different numbering system.)  The actual commentary by St. Thomas starts at 494. He says, "After rejecting the opinions of those who held false theories about the earth, the Philosopher here pursues the opinions of those who, while holding a true theory about the earth, namely, that it is at rest, assigned unsuitable explanations for the earth's rest."

    Just as he did in lecture 21 (and virtually all the lectures), he begins lecture 22 by summarizing what Aristotle covered previously and introducing where his argument goes next.  It is clear that the flat earth theory that St. Thomas has just described is one of the false theories.  It forms a transition from those who are wrong about the earth being in motion to those who correctly believe that it is at rest but for wrong reasons.  This topic fills several lectures.  

    St. Thomas begins to comment on Aristotle's own opinions on the earth starting in lecture 26: "After pursuing the opinions of others concerning the earth, the Philosopher here determines about it according to the truth."   Everything up to this point has been an opinion of people other than Aristotle (and false) while St. Thomas identifies Aristotle's view as the truth.  ( hic determinat de ea secundum veritatem).

    Then in lecture 27, St. Thomas specifically on Aristotle's view on the shape of the earth.  This is what I have previously quoted from 532:  "Having determined the truth about the earth's place and about its motion or rest, the Philosopher here determines the truth about its shape."  ( hic determinat veritatem circa figuram ipsius.)

    Because each lecture begins with a summary of the preceding material and overview of what comes next, it is easy to to see the structure of the argument by looking at the beginning of each lecture. Anyone who does this for lectures 21 to 27 can see that St. Thomas includes the flat earth theory as a false opinion of others, while he discusses spherical earth while referring to it as truth.

    You should spend more than five minutes looking for quotes and spend enough time to read and understand the structure and direction of the argument.  Anyone who does this can see that St. Thomas gave no support whatsoever to flat earth theory and himself believes in a spherical earth.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #34 on: October 10, 2018, 11:52:36 AM »
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  • .
    "Now that I have drawn everyone's attention to this fact, I do think there is anything left to say."
    .
    .
    ............. [Typo: should have, ...I do not think there is anything left to say.]
    Thanks for correcting my typo.  

    As it turns out, I need to rest today due to ill health and have time to spend on posting that I would not normally.  So I have ended up making more posts after all.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #35 on: October 10, 2018, 12:02:57 PM »
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  • you went on to use probat.

    he is referring to the truth as Aristotle saw it. Not as he did. It's called playing devils advocate.
    This sort of relativism did not exist in St. Thomas, having been introduced centuries later.  For St. Thomas, as it should be for all people, truth means truth and does not vary from person to person.  

    When St. Thomas wrote " the Philosopher here determines the truth about its shape.... he proves that the earth is spherical" (hic determinat veritatem ... probat terram esse sphaericamhe was talking about absolute truth.  To deny this involves introducing an anachronistic subjectivism into his words to distort his plain meaning.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #36 on: October 10, 2018, 12:32:35 PM »
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  • It's funny that your source posted says that Queen Isabella and the Cardinal believed the earth was flat, since you and Jaynek have claimed for months that "no learned Catholic ever believed the earth was flat."
    You two both fell for Jeffrey Burton Russell's lie that Columbus and the people of the time did not really think earth was flat.

    Your lie is no undoneby your own quote which states the queen, the friar, and the cardinal were "greatly amazed" in the court when Columbus told them earth was "round, like a ball."
    The source is a hundred year old letter to the editor in a journal for priests.  The author was expressing surprise that a history book would claim that educated Catholics believed the earth was flat.  He wrote: "The surprise is that the ecclesiastics of his day are thought not to have known the teachings of their school books."

    This priest is making the point that, since it is clear in the writings of St. Thomas that he believed and taught that the earth is a sphere, it is highly unlikely that a Cardinal or any educated Catholic would have believed the earth is flat as the quoted history book claims.  The quote which states "the queen, the friar, and the cardinal were "greatly amazed" in the court" is introduced by the author so that he may disagree with it.  The article's author shows that the claim of the history book is not compatible with what is known from the works of St. Thomas.

    It is quite true that one hundred years ago, few people were aware of this anomaly.  History books in Britain and America regularly taught that Catholics at the time of Columbus Catholics thought the world was flat.  Only those people with sufficient education to be directly familiar with medieval writers realized that this popular belief made no sense.

    Nowadays, more people are aware of the truth and fewer history books make the false claim about Catholic beliefs.  Jeffery Burton Russell traced this false claim about Catholics believing the earth was flat back to anti-religion and anti-Catholic authors.  He makes a compelling case that this was the cause of the popular misconception.  Many historians now accept his theory that it came from anti-Catholicism.  Even those who question his theory about the cause cannot deny that virtually all the docuмentation from 700 AD onward shows that educated Catholics believed in a spherical earth.  The only question is whether the falsehood about medieval Catholics believing in a flat earth was deliberately introduced by anti-Catholics or not.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #37 on: October 10, 2018, 01:13:40 PM »
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  • Thanks for correcting my typo.  

    As it turns out, I need to rest today due to ill health and have time to spend on posting that I would not normally.  So I have ended up making more posts after all.
    .
    So glad to hear you have more time to post! But that it's because of illness is NOT good news. Get better soon! Oh, you're welcome.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #38 on: October 10, 2018, 01:24:41 PM »
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  • The source is a hundred year old letter to the editor in a journal for priests.  The author was expressing surprise that a history book would claim that educated Catholics believed the earth was flat.  He wrote: "The surprise is that the ecclesiastics of his day are thought not to have known the teachings of their school books."

    This priest is making the point that, since it is clear in the writings of St. Thomas that he believed and taught that the earth is a sphere, it is highly unlikely that a Cardinal or any educated Catholic would have believed the earth is flat as the quoted history book claims.  The quote which states "the queen, the friar, and the cardinal were "greatly amazed" in the court" is introduced by the author so that he may disagree with it.  The article's author shows that the claim of the history book is not compatible with what is known from the works of St. Thomas.

    It is quite true that one hundred years ago, few people were aware of this anomaly.  History books in Britain and America regularly taught that Catholics at the time of Columbus Catholics thought the world was flat.  Only those people with sufficient education to be directly familiar with medieval writers realized that this popular belief made no sense.

    Nowadays, more people are aware of the truth and fewer history books make the false claim about Catholic beliefs.  Jeffery Burton Russell traced this false claim about Catholics believing the earth was flat back to anti-religion and anti-Catholic authors.  He makes a compelling case that this was the cause of the popular misconception.  Many historians now accept his theory that it came from anti-Catholicism.  Even those who question his theory about the cause cannot deny that virtually all the docuмentation from 700 AD onward shows that educated Catholics believed in a spherical earth.  The only question is whether the falsehood about medieval Catholics believing in a flat earth was deliberately introduced by anti-Catholics or not.
    .
    We ought to be making a list of all the ways flat-earthdom syndromers misunderstand historical evidence and project their own bad habits of subjectivism (which is an error introduced by anti-Catholic modern philosophers like Immanuel Kant, d. 1804) onto the likes of St. Thomas Aquinas, who lived 5 centuries earlier. Your appropriate use of "anachronism" speaks volumes. Next thing you know, flat-earthdom syndromers will be saying that St. Thomas is the one who introduced subjectivist philosophy by his own de facto application of its principles in his own writings!
    .
    (Maybe I shouldn't give them any ideas!  :furtive: )
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #39 on: October 10, 2018, 01:28:51 PM »
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  • It's funny that your source posted says that Queen Isabella and the Cardinal believed the earth was flat, since you and Jaynek have claimed for months that "no learned Catholic ever believed the earth was flat."
    You two both fell for Jeffrey Burton Russell's lie that Columbus and the people of the time did not really think earth was flat.
    Your lie is no undoneby your own quote which states the queen, the friar, and the cardinal were "greatly amazed" in the court when Columbus told them earth was "round, like a ball."
    .
    You don't even recognize the fact that you're only digging your own grave with inane drivel like the above. 
    .
    You've got it all wrong, don't understand what you're reading, and entirely missed the point of the letter. 
    .
    Do flat-earthdom syndromers specialize in clown thinking?  :jester: 
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #40 on: October 10, 2018, 01:49:20 PM »
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  • .
    Whoever wrote this article (no evidence was offered to support the claim that it was a resistance priest) it misrepresents the position of St. Thomas.
    .
    St. Thomas refers to Aristotle's view as the truth.
    .
    .
    It's most interesting to note that all this time, since the beginning of this thread, your mention of the absence of evidence has gone unanswered. This mysterious "resistance priest" who doesn't know much about how to read St. Thomas or what is meant by the words written, or how St. Thomas regarded Aristotle, or what St. Thomas did with the extant writings of Aristotle, or how he dealt with the many centuries of tradition that had come down to us by the powerful effect that Aristotle's teachings had on future generations, remains obscure and unidentified most likely because he is not a priest at all.
    .
    Any resistance priest willing to put forth utter foolishness like that about the writings and "intentions" of the Angelic Doctor without identifying himself is very likely some layman pretending to be a priest;  or worse, a combined effort of several flat-earthdom syndromers who think they can fake what a priest of their liking WOULD have to say IF he DID exist. IOW it's a phantom priest, a Shangri-La dreamland priest, an urban legend make-believe priest, a fake priest. One who has been custom-molded to fit the Shangri-La dreamland make-believe subjective reality of flat-earthdomism, where reality is in the mind. You know, like Immanuel Kant said.
    .
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #41 on: October 10, 2018, 01:59:43 PM »
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  • .
    It's most interesting to note that all this time, since the beginning of this thread, your mention of the absence of evidence has gone unanswered. This mysterious "resistance priest" who doesn't know much about how to read St. Thomas or what is meant by the words written, or how St. Thomas regarded Aristotle, or what St. Thomas did with the extant writings of Aristotle, or how he dealt with the many centuries of tradition that had come down to us by the powerful effect that Aristotle's teachings had on future generations, remains obscure and unidentified most likely because he is not a priest at all.
    I hate to accuse people of lying but, I must admit, I find it difficult to believe that a priest would make the sort of mistakes evident in the article ascribed to a resistance priest in the OP.

    Perhaps the people claiming it is a resistance priest are honestly mistaken and it was planted by an anti-resistance author with the intent of making the resistance look foolish and poorly educated.

    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #42 on: October 10, 2018, 04:11:48 PM »
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  • The source is a hundred year old letter to the editor in a journal for priests.  The author was expressing surprise that a history book would claim that educated Catholics believed the earth was flat.  He wrote: "The surprise is that the ecclesiastics of his day are thought not to have known the teachings of their school books."

    This priest is making the point that, since it is clear in the writings of St. Thomas that he believed and taught that the earth is a sphere, it is highly unlikely that a Cardinal or any educated Catholic would have believed the earth is flat as the quoted history book claims.  The quote which states "the queen, the friar, and the cardinal were "greatly amazed" in the court" is introduced by the author so that he may disagree with it.  The article's author shows that the claim of the history book is not compatible with what is known from the works of St. Thomas.

    It is quite true that one hundred years ago, few people were aware of this anomaly.  History books in Britain and America regularly taught that Catholics at the time of Columbus Catholics thought the world was flat.  Only those people with sufficient education to be directly familiar with medieval writers realized that this popular belief made no sense.

    Nowadays, more people are aware of the truth and fewer history books make the false claim about Catholic beliefs.  Jeffery Burton Russell traced this false claim about Catholics believing the earth was flat back to anti-religion and anti-Catholic authors.  He makes a compelling case that this was the cause of the popular misconception.  Many historians now accept his theory that it came from anti-Catholicism.  Even those who question his theory about the cause cannot deny that virtually all the docuмentation from 700 AD onward shows that educated Catholics believed in a spherical earth.  The only question is whether the falsehood about medieval Catholics believing in a flat earth was deliberately introduced by anti-Catholics or not.
    No, the author is not expressing his own personal "surprise." 
    That is not what it says.
    It says the queen, friar and cardinal were amazed to hear Columbus say earth was flat.
    In fact, the author wonders aloud with his QUESTION asking "didn't theological textbooks of the time say earth was a globe??"
    Obviously,  since the author DOES NOT KNOW WHAT THE TEXTBOOKS SAID, the obly possible conclusion is that they did not say earth was a globe. Otherwise, there is no reason for Isabella's, the friar's, and the Cardinal's SURPRISE.

    Offline hismajesty

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #43 on: October 10, 2018, 04:38:59 PM »
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  • Jayne,

    I refer to your long post.

    It is not clear that the false theory is referring to the flat earth one. Even though it comes after.

    Even if it were, you still miss the point that he was simply representing Aristotle's argument.

    This is not relativism as you claim.

    This is all the more clear because when St. Thomas talks about theological matters he clearly gives his opinion. Whereas this text is not so clear. You would know this if you took the time to read other writings of St. Thomas.
    "....I am at a loss what to say respecting those who, when they have once erred, consistently persevere in their folly, and defend one vain thing by another" - Church Father Lactentius on the globe earth

    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #44 on: October 10, 2018, 05:15:09 PM »
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  • The Resistance priest is real, some of us here have spoken to him personally. 

    He will identify himself when he is ready.


    It should tell you something that he wrote an essay about the topic.