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Author Topic: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas  (Read 4482 times)

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Offline Meg

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Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2018, 12:35:41 PM »
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  • I already gave my opinion in my first post of this thread.  St. Thomas clearly does agree with Aristotle since he says that Aristotle "determines the truth".  The article is incorrect to claim there is no intent to agree with Aristotle.

    In general, St Thomas tends to agree with Aristotle, holding him in great respect.  If St Thomas does not explicitly disagree it normally means he agrees.  In this case, however, we don't even need to know that. Even a person without this background knowledge can tell that saying a position is " the truth" is the same as agreeing with it.

    Where does St. Thomas state that is the truth that the earth is a sphere?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #16 on: October 08, 2018, 12:44:02 PM »
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  • Where does St. Thomas state that is the truth that the earth is a sphere?
    Why do you keep asking questions that I have already answered?


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #17 on: October 08, 2018, 12:46:41 PM »
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  • Why do you keep asking questions that I have already answered?

    Where did you address the question about St. Thomas saying that it is the truth that the earth is a sphere? You'll need to point it out, since I missed it.

    It's a specific question, which requires more than a general answer. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #18 on: October 08, 2018, 12:53:06 PM »
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  • Where did you address the question about St. Thomas saying that it is the truth that the earth is a sphere? You'll need to point it out, since I missed it.

    It's a specific question, which requires more than a general answer.
    My first post in this thread, reply  #2.  I gave an exact quote near the beginning of it.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #19 on: October 08, 2018, 03:22:56 PM »
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  • .
    Question:   Why do you keep asking questions that I have already answered?
    .
    .
    Answer:   Because as a flat-earthdom syndromer that's the only way to continue the conversation since it's headed otherwise into unacceptable realms of unforgivable contradiction against the Shangri-La subjective fantasyland of flat-earthdomism.
    .
    BTW  .  .  .   It's nice to see you haven't lost your touch, Jaynek, in fact, taking some time off helps the virtue of patience.
    You really need a lot of patience dealing with flat-earthdom syndromers. They keep asking the same questions!      
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #20 on: October 08, 2018, 04:09:37 PM »
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    Answer:   Because as a flat-earthdom syndromer that's the only way to continue the conversation since it's headed otherwise into unacceptable realms of unforgivable contradiction against the Shangri-La subjective fantasyland of flat-earthdomism.
    .
    BTW  .  .  .   It's nice to see you haven't lost your touch, Jaynek, in fact, taking some time off helps the virtue of patience.
    You really need a lot of patience dealing with flat-earthdom syndromers. They keep asking the same questions!      

    Patience requires charity, and Jayne does not have that. She assumes the worst of anyone who supports a flat-earth. 

    I'm surprised that you stayed away from the thread for this long, Neil. That must have been difficult.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #21 on: October 08, 2018, 04:12:06 PM »
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  • My first post in this thread, reply  #2.  I gave an exact quote near the beginning of it.

    Okay, thank you. It does seem that St. Thomas agrees with Aristotle about the shape of the earth being spherical.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #22 on: October 08, 2018, 05:34:06 PM »
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  • Patience requires charity, and Jayne does not have that. She assumes the worst of anyone who supports a flat-earth.

    I'm surprised that you stayed away from the thread for this long, Neil. That must have been difficult.
    .
    You're wrong on both counts, as usual.
    Jaynek has far more patience than I do, and she's more charitable too.
    She gives you chances every time she posts but you keep ignoring them.
    I will give you credit, though, for having accepted her very gentle correction in your post above this one.
    And no, it wasn't difficult for me because I have Jaynek's sterling example to follow!   ;D
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #23 on: October 09, 2018, 05:29:51 AM »
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  • Where did you address the question about St. Thomas saying that it is the truth that the earth is a sphere? You'll need to point it out, since I missed it.

    It's a specific question, which requires more than a general answer.
    .
    Wow. Just WOW!
    So if only St. Thomas Aquinas had written the words, "It is the truth that the earth is a sphere," then there would have been no flat-earth movement? Is that all it would have taken? Apparently it would have been enough for claudel!
    .
    Because, if his writing of those words could have prevented this flat-earthdom syndrome epidemic, just imagine what could have been prevented if he had written something else. 
    .
    Like what? you ask?
    .
    Well, what if, just what if, St. Thomas Aquinas had written that Our Lady was immaculately conceived, what then? I mean, instead of his writing that the soul of a baby girl doesn't enter the fertilized egg in her mother's womb until 63 days have passed (in conformity with the medical or biological thinking, "ensoulment," of the 13th century), if he only instead had written the words, "The Blessed Virgin Mary was preserved from every stain of original sin by being in the state of immaculate perfection from the very first moment of her conception," then we would not have had the Protestant Deformation, or the French Revolution, or the ominous rise of Charles Lyell, Charles Darwin and evolution, or the cινιℓ ωαr or World War I or the Communist revolution! 
    .
    If only St. Thomas had written one sentence. So then, it's his fault! 
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    Offline hismajesty

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #24 on: October 09, 2018, 06:22:22 AM »
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  • Okay, thank you. It does seem that St. Thomas agrees with Aristotle about the shape of the earth being spherical.

    no it doesn't Meg.

    Jayne has already long ago used this quote. But whats new about this article is that this priest has read the entire docuмent, which I doubt she has, and shown that the context is such that St. Thomas is simply making Aristotle's arguments and elaborating on them.

    using the word probat (proves), does not mean that he agrees with it. This is wishful thinking on Jaynes part. We do things like this when we argue anothers case. Sometimes we forget to put it in parenthesis or to add "so he says". But this does not mean we agree with them.

    What is also new in this docuмent is that St. Thomas gives even more weight to the flat earth argument. No one of us flat earthers seemed to know about this before. It is quite a discovery.

    But Jayne ignores all that because she is scared of her husband.
    "....I am at a loss what to say respecting those who, when they have once erred, consistently persevere in their folly, and defend one vain thing by another" - Church Father Lactentius on the globe earth

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #25 on: October 09, 2018, 01:20:15 PM »
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  • Patience requires charity, and Jayne does not have that. She assumes the worst of anyone who supports a flat-earth.
    Although I am grateful for Neil's good opinion of me, I am very aware that I fail in patience and in charity far too often.  I am sorry.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #26 on: October 09, 2018, 02:05:32 PM »
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  • Jayne has already long ago used this quote. But whats new about this article is that this priest has read the entire docuмent, which I doubt she has, and shown that the context is such that St. Thomas is simply making Aristotle's arguments and elaborating on them.
    Yes, I cited that quote before, back in May when I first came across the tradidi article mentioned in the OP.  At the time, I read De Coelo Book II, Lectures 21 to 28.  This is the part that deals with the earth's motion and shape.  Because I had read it back then, I immediately realized that the claims of this thread OP were incorrect.  I reread it to have it fresh in my mind while writing my first post to this thread.

    Have you read it?  It does not say what you claim it does.

    using the word probat (proves), does not mean that he agrees with it. This is wishful thinking on Jaynes part. We do things like this when we argue anothers case. Sometimes we forget to put it in parenthesis or to add "so he says". But this does not mean we agree with them.

    This is a straw man.  I never claimed that using the word "probat" shows that St. Thomas agrees.  I said that referring to Aristotle's position as truth (veritas) shows that Thomas agrees with it.  Under what circuмstances does a person say that something is the truth while disagreeing with it?

    What is also new in this docuмent is that St. Thomas gives even more weight to the flat earth argument. No one of us flat earthers seemed to know about this before. It is quite a discovery.

    St. Thomas describes the flat earth argument as one of the "false theories about the earth" (falsas opiniones circa terram ) rejected by Aristotle (at 494).  How does this give weight to it?  No flat earther seemed to know before about the position the OP ascribed to St. Thomas because he never held such a position.  The OP article apparently made it up.

    But Jayne ignores all that because she is scared of her husband.

    Even if I were scared of my husband, he would not mind me saying that St. Thomas believed the earth were flat if there were any evidence to think such a thing.  My husband has no objections whatsoever to me saying that Lactantius wrote that the earth is flat, since that actually happened.

    I am not ignoring anything.  Anyone can read what St. Thomas wrote in De Coelo for himself and see that it does not match the claims of the OP's article.

    I decided some time ago to stop participating in flat earth threads because I find them too frustrating.  I made an exception in this case because I had recently read the relevant section of De Coelo and knew how seriously the article misrepresented the position of St. Thomas.  Now that I have drawn everyone's attention to this fact, I do think there is anything left to say.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #27 on: October 10, 2018, 03:00:03 AM »
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  • .
    "Now that I have drawn everyone's attention to this fact, I do think there is anything left to say."
    .
    .
    ............. [Typo: should have, ...I do not think there is anything left to say.]
    .
    Flat-earthdom syndromers writhe and squirm over the prospect of having to recognize where they've been wrong all along.
    .
    This is the audience that pays the bills of Jeranism, whose youtube videos generate enough income for him to not have to work. 
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #28 on: October 10, 2018, 03:24:58 AM »
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  • .
    The offending article, which flat-earthdom syndromers love to hate:
    .
    https://tradidi.com/st-thomas-held-and-taught-that-the-earth-is-round
    .
    St. Thomas Held and Taught that the Earth is Round 
    [^ The title ^ found in the source book, published in 1918]

    Submitted by Admin on 12 April 2018



    To the Editor, The Ecclesiastical Review.

    In his beautiful pageant, The Discovery of America, Dr. Coakley introduces Columbus as saying to the prior of La Rabida

    "... My studies prove that our dwelling place is round ".

    To which the gentle friar answers ("in great surprise"),

    "You say 'tis round !"

    And then Columbus :

    "As round as is the ball beneath yon towering cross ".

    Afterward, in the court scene when Isabella is told that Columbus holds the earth to be round, she is greatly amazed, and even the Cardinal shakes his head dubiously.

    Now while the surprise of the Queen at hearing a cosmical theory which may not have passed from the University hall into the palace, was natural enough, a prince of the Church and the prior of a monastery ought not to have been unaware of the opinion held by many of the learned of their day that this earth of ours is really a sphere. For were not St. Thomas's Summa Theologica as well as Aristotle's Physics text-books at the time in the hands of university professors and students?

    In both these familiar instruments of knowledge the sphericity of the earth is explicitly maintained. The Angelic Doctor mentions the subject in two passages of the Summa (P. I, Q. I, A. I, ad 2um, and P. I-II, Q. LIV, A. 2 ad 2um) ; also in his commentary on the Sentences(II, D, 24, Q. 2, 2, 5um) ; in his commentary on the Post. Anal. (L. 41), on the Phys. (II, L. 3) ; and more at length in the De Coelo et Mundo (L. II, L. 26, 27, 28 ). One citation from the Summa will suffice for the present purpose.

    St. Thomas is answering an objection against his conclusion that the principle upon which habits are classified is their formal object. It is urged that one and the same object may fall under different habits of science; "sicut terram esse rotundam demonstrat naturalis et astrologus". He replies : "Dicendum quod terram esse rotundam per aliud medium demonstrat naturalis, et per aliud astrologus. Astrologus enim hoc demonstrat per media mathematica, sicut per figuras eclipsium, vel per aliud hujusmodi. Naturalis vero hoc demonstrat per medium naturale, sicut per motum gravium ad medium, vel per aliud hujusmodi." And the rest (I, Q. LIV, A. 2 ad 2um).

    In other words, St. Thomas declares that Aristotle's assertion that the earth is round is capable of proof by two middle terms. The astronomer derives his argument from  mathematics, that is, from the round shape of the earth cast upon the disk of the moon during an eclipse. The natural philosopher derives his argument from the physical phenomenon of gravitation, namely that "heavy" bodies tend toward the centre of the earth; therefore the earth must be round.

    That the roundness here meant is certainly not that of a flat disk, but that of a ball or sphere is abundantly manifest from the teaching both of Aristotle and of Aquinas which is developed at some length in the Lectiones (26, 27, 28 ) on the second book of the De Coelo et Mundo.

    Moreover, both these venerable teachers thought it probable that the ocean stretching beyond Gibraltar merged into the Mare Indicuм, which washed the eastern shores of India; and since this opinion was laid down in the second book of the Philosopher's De Coelo et Mundo, commented upon by Aquinas (Lect. 28 ), it is not so surprising that the great Genoese thought the earth was round and that by sailing westward from the pillars of Hercules he would reach the shores of India; or that until his death Columbus believed that he had actually landed upon the Asian continent. The surprise is that the ecclesiastics of his day are thought not to have known the teachings of their school books.

    J. F. S.
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    Offline hismajesty

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    Re: Flat Earth priest responds to Tradidi claims over St. Thomas
    « Reply #29 on: October 10, 2018, 06:27:36 AM »
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  • St. Thomas describes the flat earth argument as one of the "false theories about the earth" (falsas opiniones circa terram ) rejected by Aristotle (at 494).  How does this give weight to it?  No flat earther seemed to know before about the position the OP ascribed to St. Thomas because he never held such a position.  The OP article apparently made it up.



    Most people have switched off at this point, but for those who are still reading...

    This is not true Jayne. The quote you give appears long after the flat earth point he makes. There is no clear connection at all showing that it refers to the flat earth argument. This is obvious who looks it up and reads it. It only took me five minutes to find both the quotes.

    All it refers to is those theories which he said were false. And the flat earth is not one of them.

    Sorry Jayne. Nice try.

    Next please!
    "....I am at a loss what to say respecting those who, when they have once erred, consistently persevere in their folly, and defend one vain thing by another" - Church Father Lactentius on the globe earth