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Author Topic: Experienced hams - earth is curved BUT BUT  (Read 21437 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Experienced hams - earth is curved BUT BUT
« on: Yesterday at 01:21:34 PM »
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  • From Ham Radio Workbench episode #250, around 2:23:00 mark.

    They are talking about VHF, UHF, and microwave frequencies going beyond line-of-sight.
    These are line-of-sight frequencies which do NOT bounce off the "ionosphere" according to their model.
    These frequencies should TOTALLY, ABSOLUTELY go off into space rather than bounce around, according to their model.

    But experienced hams point out that "not rarely" you get comms from Hawaii to California. Or other 600-700 km comms. That is WAY BEYOND LINE-OF-SIGHT.

    They don't ever put 2 + 2 together, and start to question the Globe model they have been given since childhood.

    It's not just "weird" or "one of those things" -- it DISPROVES THE MODEL. It FALSIFIES the model. Given the model we have been taught, the experimental results they speak about are LITERALLY NOT POSSIBLE.

    You need to go back and question the model when you encounter evidence like this. AS A SCIENTIST.

    You see, I was faced with this and similar evidence. But rather than suffer cognitive dissonance in silence, or willfully dismiss the truth because I didn't like it (or it made me uncomfortable), I looked into flat earth with an open mind. And guess what? Now I'm a "flat earther". I know, that's one of the only unforgivable beliefs these days, similar to r4cist or n4z|, but c'est la vie.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Experienced hams - earth is curved BUT BUT
    « Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 01:45:52 PM »
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  • So, one of the most desperate attempts to explain away some record long range UHF tests conducted by (I think it was) the US Navy was to claim it had something to do with these ridiculous water columns.

    :laugh1:

    There was also a record high bandwidth microwave transmission across the Mediterannean with many miles that should have been hidden by curvature, with the towers about 50 feet high ... and at the water's edge on each side, so they could avoid obstructions or obstacles.  That too had to be perfectly focused line of sight, where they had to line up transmitter and receiver perfectly for this to work.


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Experienced hams - earth is curved BUT BUT
    « Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 03:41:49 PM »
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  • What about tropospheric ducting and sporadic E-skip?

    https://3fs.net.au/tropospheric-ducting/

    https://northpine.com/2020/06/18/tropo-or-e-skip-nows-the-time-to-listen-for-distant-fm-signals/

    Neither of these propagation methods rely upon line of sight.

    Many times during the year, I receive TV stations 300-400 miles away through tropospheric ducting.  (I have a high-performance antenna, the Televes DATBOSS that is designed both for low- and high-VHF as well as UHF.)  Sadly, though, with the sharp reduction in the number of TV stations broadcasting on low-VHF, viz. channels 2 through 6, E-skip is a fairly rare phenomenon these days.  Back in the analog days, I received stations from all across North America, and the beauty of it was, no specialized equipment was really needed.  I've picked up stations on E-skip with just a set of rabbit ears.

    Also, in analog days, the picture was very often smeared or distorted, whereas with the advent of digital TV, you either have the signal or you don't, and a distant signal is just as clear as a local one.

    There is also the phenomenon of knife-edge propagation, where you don't strictly have a line of sight, but the signal reflects off various terrestrial barriers such as ridges and mountains, and ricochets on past them.  I regularly get stations from 80 to 100 miles away using knife-edge propagation, and a handful of them are reliable enough for almost-daily reception.  With tropo and E-skip, it's just a chance phenomenon.  (Tropo can also combine with knife-edge for some very good results.)

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Experienced hams - earth is curved BUT BUT
    « Reply #3 on: Yesterday at 04:29:23 PM »
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  • "Troposheric Ducting" is just something else they made up where in every case they simply beg the question that the earth must be a ball, and come up with some theory to explain it.  It's really just a variation on refraction.  Everything I've ever seen about it entails begging the question.  People can hear radio signals that can't bounce off the ionosphere 1000s of miles away.  SINCE WE KNOW THE EARTH IS A GLOBE, then there must be such a thing as tropospheric ducting, aka refraction.  So then if you say that these signals can only go so far if the earth is flat, they say ... tropospheric ducting, which is based on the assumption of globe earth, and therefore entails a completely circular argument.  Earth is flat because we know it's a globe.

    Also, I don't buy the existence of ionosphere bounce either.  They made that up to explain Marconi's signal and some others, but then when based on what they made up about ionosphere bounce there were different types of waves that did not conform to the principles behind their explanation, they had to come up with something else for those.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Experienced hams - earth is curved BUT BUT
    « Reply #4 on: Yesterday at 04:36:24 PM »
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  • Here's one example of an discussion about Marconi's experiment ...
    Quote
    Scientific discovery: At the time of Marconi's experiment, the existence of the ionosphere was not yet fully understood. The transmission was an empirical proof that radio waves could travel beyond the horizon, and scientists later worked to understand the principles of ionospheric reflection. The electrically conducting layer was first named the "E-Layer" by Sir Edward Appleton in 1927, derived from the name "electrical-layer".

    You'll notice the embedded assumption, that the radio waves could travel beyond the "horizon" ... which assumes a ball earth horizon, 100% begging the question.  So then they had to figure out a way to explain this away but without touching the sacrosanct embedded assumption.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Experienced hams - earth is curved BUT BUT
    « Reply #5 on: Yesterday at 04:41:06 PM »
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  • Or this ...

    Quote
    Microwaves travel solely by line-of-sight paths; unlike lower frequency radio waves, they do not travel as ground waves which follow the contour of the Earth, or reflect off the ionosphere (skywaves)

    So there are these magical "ground waves" which [just so happen to] follow [and bend around] the contour of the Earth ... just amazing that the earth tries to darn hard to hide its curvature.

    Then there was the microwave transmission across the Mediterranean, where the globers were in a frenzy since they couldn't explain that one away, so they were claiming that the company that conducted the test must have had 2,000 foot towers, cuz, well, we KNOW the earth is a globe.  I'm sure that if there were 2,000 foot towers on both sides, someone would have spotted them or they would have been logged somewhere in aviation guides.

    They just throw stupidity out there like this, hoping that people won't stop for a second to consider that, 2,000 feet would be twice the height of a single one of the Twin Towers in NYC that fell on 9/11. Yes, I'm sure this company constructed these towers that were twice as tall as each Twin Tower, just to conduct an experiment about whether they could transmit high-def data over several hundred miles.

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Experienced hams - earth is curved BUT BUT
    « Reply #6 on: Yesterday at 07:49:11 PM »
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  • My forte is TV DX, not ham radio (though I do hold a Technician license) or other types of audio reception.  I can tell you that the site rabbitears.info allows you to do a signal search based upon your location, and provides Longley-Rice "heat maps" as well, which take into account terrain, and are of course based upon a GE model.  Those maps tend to hold up when compared with actual reception of various stations at any given location.  The stations it predicts I will get are indeed receivable (I have a copse of pine trees to the north of my property, which makes reception in that direction more difficult, and which the heat maps don't take into account, but in all other directions it's smooth sailing), and the further out you get from the transmitter, terrain and elevation have their way with the signal.  If you can get out over a completely unobstructed area (such as a body of water), the heat maps predict a gradual diminution of signal as you get further away from the TX, then a sharp drop-off after about 100 miles tops.  It would be interesting to have some kind of boat, go out to the limit that the heat maps predict, and see if the signal does, indeed, completely vanish.  Now, as to whether this would prove FE or GE could depend on various factors, such as the downtilt of the signal (ordinary TV signals are not like microwaves, they fan out from the top of the TX and, so I have been told, are flattened out above the TX, as there is no point sending a signal straight up in the air).

    Here is a sample map showing a station directly on the Florida coast (WJXT Jacksonville FL, RF channel 18, tower height 997 feet at 670 KW).  The "sharp drop-off" is at the outer edge of the salmon-colored band.  The PSIP information (i.e., the channel number you see on your TV set) is channel 4 (4-1, 4-2, and so on for the various subchannels), but that is not the actual RF channel, when the FCC forced all stations to switch over to digital, using different channel allocations in the vast majority of cases, they allowed the broadcasters to retain the same channel numbers on PSIP, for continuity of marketing.  WJXT has been channel 4 in Jacksonville forever, so even now that it is broadcast on RF channel 18, the viewer still sees channel 4 on the screen.  It's complicated.




    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Experienced hams - earth is curved BUT BUT
    « Reply #7 on: Yesterday at 11:46:09 PM »
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  • To fully understand what's going on, you would need to understand:

    1. the shape of the earth (flat), including the existence of a Firmament (which might very well bounce radio waves)
    2. the existence of the Aether -- all ham band propagation properties/habits can be explained by the aether, which obviously changes in various ways during the day vs. night. The Sun might indeed be exciting the aether in some way, though it's not a NASA CGI flaming ball of hydrogen fusion.
    3. There is much about the natural world we don't know, especially with 99.9% of the Scientific community -- those paid to do this work -- have been "out to lunch" for the past ??? years, chasing after nonsense after nonsense (globe earth, evolution, aliens, our "origins", etc.)

    Also recall that the military has VHF or UHF systems (both of these frequency ranges are LINE-OF-SIGHT) which operate regularly, as in 99%+ uptime -- which can't be explained by all the exotic propagation methods known to Hams (knife edge, tropo, rain scatter, meteor scatter, etc.) Those phenomena DO exist and do explain PART of the whole picture, but they would NOT explain a system which requires 99%+ uptime. Tropo simply doesn't happen that often. It's supposed to be a relatively rare treat, like a day off work.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Experienced hams - earth is curved BUT BUT
    « Reply #8 on: Today at 05:04:25 AM »
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  • I would add to the list that one should be open to the possibility of a dome, allowing for signals to possibly reflect off of that depending on the scenario, and of course, more than just open to the possibility, since Sacred Scripture quite clearly describes a physical dome, so we as Catholics must believe it.

    Even Dr. Sungenis departed from his original "firmament is space" hypothesis, realizing that it was inadequate, and moved first toward the Planck fabric explanation, which I think again he found inadequate (speaking to some intellectual honesty there on his part), since the Planck fabric could not have the properties attributed to the firmament (preventing water from inundating the earth during the Flood), and moved toward the Ice Firmament theory as described in his latest video series from Kolbe that appears to have had the plug pulled on it.  He was working on a series on "How God Created the World in Six Days", but it appears to have been cancelled after Day 2.  I do suspect that both Kolbe and he got so much heat about the giant space ice ball theory (from the same types that deride FE, ironically, and with whom he had joined forces against FE) that they pulled the plug.  I wrote to Kolbe asking them what happened, since I had purchased Day 1 and Day 2, with the hope that I could get the entire series.  I may request a refund to see if that will inspire them to tell me why they aborted the series.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Experienced hams - earth is curved BUT BUT
    « Reply #9 on: Today at 09:35:19 AM »
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  • Audio waves bounce off the firmament -- why not radio waves?

    When you hear thunder, ask yourself: where is the echo coming from? If the sound were travelling away from you, it would not reach your ears. It would have to bounce OFF something and come back to your ears, to hear an echo.
    And we've all heard thunderstorms where some thunder rumbles/noises are distinctly "echos" of an original thunderclap.
    The ground would ABSORB any sound waves; and at any rate, my ears aren't in the ground here and there. Even if it bounced, it would go UP and my ears aren't up in the sky either. Once a sound wave heads skyward, isn't it lost into "outer space"? Unless there's a Firmament...

    I've never lived in a mountainous area. Quite the contrary.

    But yes, I forgot to mention the Firmament aspect. That's why Hams will sometimes send radio transmissions "long path" or around the "globe" to their destination. For example, Someone on the East Coast aiming an antenna EAST to reach California via "long path". On a FE model, this would bounce off the firmament.

    Long story short, Firmament + Aether explains FAR more of the day-to-day experiences and reality of Ham Radio than the commonly accepted "globe" model.
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Experienced hams - earth is curved BUT BUT
    « Reply #10 on: Today at 10:47:27 AM »
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  • FWIW, I seem to recall that when Pius XI made his speech announcing the debut of Vatican Radio in 1931, he referred to the "ether".  I have to think that he was just using the common terminology of the time, and wasn't attempting to give a detailed explanation of how radio waves are propagated.  I haven't been able to find the text of the message, which was in Latin to begin with.