Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis  (Read 24640 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
« Reply #65 on: August 19, 2022, 03:47:22 PM »
They could rationalize their decision in an instant and either choose God or themselves - forever.  
But, given what St. Thomas teaches about the angelic reason, ALL angels can do that, not just the higher choirs, by the fact that they are intellectual beings. The higher choirs have a much greater capacity for knowledge, but the instantaneous intellection of a principle from their natural reason does not differ:

Quote
So, likewise, the lower, namely, the human, intellects obtain their perfection in the knowledge of truth by a kind of movement and discursive intellectual operation; that is to say, as they advance from one known thing to another. But, if from the knowledge of a known principle they were straightway to perceive as known all its consequent conclusions, then there would be no discursive process at all. Such is the condition of the angels, because in the truths which they know naturally, they at once behold all things whatsoever that can be known in them.
https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.I.Q58.A3.C


As for the difference in knowledge between higher and lower angels, it is merely a quantitative difference, rather than a question of mode:

Quote
Thus the higher the angel is, by so much the fewer species will he be able to apprehend the whole mass of intelligible objects. Therefore his forms must be more universal; each one of them, as it were, extending to more things. An example of this can in some measure be observed in ourselves. For some people there are who cannot grasp an intelligible truth, unless it be explained to them in every part and detail; this comes of their weakness of intellect: while there are others of stronger intellect, who can grasp many things from few.
https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.I.Q55.A3.C


Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
« Reply #66 on: August 19, 2022, 03:52:16 PM »
I'm surprised no one posted this yet, but here's Aquinas on the entire question of Genesis 6:4:


Quote
Obj. 6: Further, to beget offspring is a vital act. But this has befallen the angels in their assumed bodies; for it is related: After the sons of God went in to the daughters of men, and they brought forth children, these are the mighty men of old, men of renown (Gen 6:4). Consequently the angels exercised vital functions in their assumed bodies.

On the contrary, The bodies assumed by angels have no life, as was stated in the previous article (ad 3). Therefore they cannot exercise functions of life through assumed bodies.

I answer that, Some functions of living subjects have something in common with other operations; just as speech, which is the function of a living creature, agrees with other sounds of inanimate things, in so far as it is sound; and walking agrees with other movements, in so far as it is movement. Consequently vital functions can be performed in assumed bodies by the angels, as to that which is common in such operations; but not as to that which is special to living subjects; because, according to the Philosopher (De Somn. et Vig. i), that which has the faculty has the action. Hence nothing can have a function of life except what has life, which is the potential principle of such action.

Reply Obj. 6: As Augustine says (De Civ. Dei xv): Many persons affirm that they have had the experience, or have heard from such as have experienced it, that the Satyrs and Fauns, whom the common folk call incubi, have often presented themselves before women, and have sought and procured intercourse with them. Hence it is folly to deny it. But God’s holy angels could not fall in such fashion before the deluge. Hence by the sons of God are to be understood the sons of Seth, who were good; while by the daughters of men the Scripture designates those who sprang from the race of Cain. Nor is it to be wondered at that giants should be born of them; for they were not all giants, albeit there were many more before than after the deluge.

Still if some are occasionally begotten from demons, it is not from the seed of such demons, nor from their assumed bodies, but from the seed of men taken for the purpose; as when the demon assumes first the form of a woman, and afterwards of a man; just as they take the seed of other things for other generating purposes, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii), so that the person born is not the child of a demon, but of a man.

https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.I.Q51.A3.Obj6


He sides with St. Augustine here that these were demons which took possession of men for this purpose, not an act of generation by the demons themselves. So, I'm still going to have to say, along with Ss. Augustine and Thomas, that "sons of God" in this sense does mean the progeny of Seth.

And therefore, given that angelic minds can interfere with matter since they occupy a state above it, it's likely that the malice of the sin committed by these sons of God and the operation of the demons manipulating their seed led to the genetic aberrations of the Giants.


Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
« Reply #67 on: August 19, 2022, 03:53:20 PM »
Quote
Secondly, while such interspecies beings (mangels?) could exist, do the Fathers or other saints talk about, or maybe describe them?
Mangles...:laugh1:  Like it.


I've not looked into any post-St Augustine saints' commentaries on the Nephilim.  Mostly because, as is normal, they would've adopted +Augustine's opinion and added no new info.  That's why Anne Catherine Emmerich's comments are so unusual - she both agrees (mentions possession) and disagrees with St Augustine (mentions fallen angels and Enoch).

My opinion is
a)  there were angels who fell during Noah's time (too much evidence for it, both from Enoch, Church Fathers and pagan civilizations).  
b)  possibly the "genetic material" for such Giants was 100% human, but enhanced/altered due to fallen angel possession/knowledge.  This would agree with St Augustine, Scripture, Enoch, Anne Catherine Emmerich, Ancient Aliens and the great X-files tv show, etc.  This theory agrees with all sources because Scripture does not say "how" such Giants were fathered, only that fallen angels were part of it.
c)  Such a theory also coincides with the future anti-christ, who will be 100% human.

And the reason this is all important?  Because Christ said "As in the days of Noah, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be".  Obviously, Christ was first talking about sin and lack of faith/religion but I also believe that we will see "signs and wonders" in the last days and also a return of giants/fallen angels/"alien" demons/etc.  Imagine what kind of technology "bump" our society could have, if fallen angels were directing the elites today?  Lots of people in govt say that "Area 51" is all about super-technology and that it's 50-60 years ahead of what we see now.  I think the "alien visitors" story will happen because it's the only way for the elites to introduce society to fallen angels, and a "new world" of futuristic technology.  In the next 10-20 years, I expect this to happen, if God doesn't intervene.

Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
« Reply #68 on: August 19, 2022, 03:54:31 PM »
Mangles...:laugh1:  Like it.


I've not looked into any post-St Augustine saints' commentaries on the Nephilim.  Mostly because, as is normal, they would've adopted +Augustine's opinion and added no new info.  That's why Anne Catherine Emmerich's comments are so unusual - she both agrees (mentions possession) and disagrees with St Augustine (mentions fallen angels and Enoch).

My opinion is
a)  there were angels who fell during Noah's time (too much evidence for it, both from Enoch, Church Fathers and pagan civilizations). 
b)  possibly the "genetic material" for such Giants was 100% human, but enhanced/altered due to fallen angel possession/knowledge.  This would agree with St Augustine, Scripture, Enoch, Anne Catherine Emmerich, Ancient Aliens and the great X-files tv show, etc.  This theory agrees with all sources because Scripture does not say "how" such Giants were fathered, only that fallen angels were part of it.
c)  Such a theory also coincides with the future anti-christ, who will be 100% human.

And the reason this is all important?  Because Christ said "As in the days of Noah, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be".  Obviously, Christ was first talking about sin and lack of faith/religion but I also believe that we will see "signs and wonders" in the last days and also a return of giants/fallen angels/"alien" demons/etc.  Imagine what kind of technology "bump" our society could have, if fallen angels were directing the elites today?  Lots of people in govt say that "Area 51" is all about super-technology and that it's 50-60 years ahead of what we see now.  I think the "alien visitors" story will happen because it's the only way for the elites to introduce society to fallen angels, and a "new world" of futuristic technology.  In the next 10-20 years, I expect this to happen, if God doesn't intervene.
Yep. I completely agree with that assessment.

I'm still on the fence on whether "sons of God" refers to the demons exclusively, or also the sons of Seth though. As both were involved in the generation of these giants.

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
« Reply #69 on: August 19, 2022, 04:04:04 PM »
Quote
He sides with St. Augustine here that these were demons which took possession of men for this purpose, not an act of generation by the demons themselves. So, I'm still going to have to say, along with Ss. Augustine and Thomas, that "sons of God" in this sense does mean the progeny of Seth.
In the past, I only heard that St Augustine discarded the angelic influence and said that the "sons of god" = sons of Seth.  This never made sense because it didn't explain why the Giants were so large and powerful.  Scripture obviously went out of their way to say that the Giants were "mighty men".  But why and how?  The explanation of "holy men turned real bad" doesn't explain the Giants.


In reading St Augustine's expanded view (along with Anne Catherine's notes) it seems there's a middle ground.  No, the fallen angels were not MATERIAL fathers.  But also, no, the "sons of god/Seth" were also not "normal" fathers.  The middle ground is the sons of seth were possessed fully, along with their wives, and the fallen angels were able to use every conceivable earthly/herbal/technological advancement to create the Giants.

Ok, I can buy this.  It reconciles all sources.