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Author Topic: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis  (Read 19904 times)

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Offline DigitalLogos

Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2022, 11:10:06 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on August 18, 2022, 10:59:16 AM
Not sure.  But the regular/traditional angels fell also.
Right. But that was prior to the creation of the world. These fell after, so, presumably, if they are traditional angels as the Fathers cited seem to presume, then how can they fall if they already saw the Beatific Vision?

That leads me to the opinion that they are not Heavenly Minds, in the sense of the Areopagite and Scholastics, but something else and merely called "angels" by the Fathers because of the  association of "sons of God" with "angels". And therefore the Enochian name of "Watchers" is deemed more appropriate as a sort of office that these creatures possessed. Or, it's as St. Augustine believes, and they are simply the sons of Seth, who, given their generational proximity to Adam, would still be pure and resplendent.
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2022, 02:15:42 PM »
A few other possible explanations…1) Scripture says that angels “in heaven” see the Beatific Vision.  Maybe there are angels that have never been in heaven?

2) I remember reading somewhere that as different/advanced as a human is to an animal, or as an animal is to a plant…this is how advanced each of the 9 choirs of angels are to each other.  So, it’s possible that some angels are ALWAYS in heaven (ie Seraphim/Cherubim) and some are NEVER there (until judgement day, because their job is to serve the world/humanity). 

An example of the latter, is I’ve heard that the angels here on earth did not know that Our Lady was to give birth to Christ until it happened.  Those angels who “brought tidings of great joy” to the Shepherds on Christmas we’re either angels from heaven or were earthly angels who had to be told, themselves, from heaven, of the news.
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Offline Tradman

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Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2022, 02:26:02 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 18, 2022, 02:15:42 PM
A few other possible explanations…1) Scripture says that angels “in heaven” see the Beatific Vision.  Maybe there are angels that have never been in heaven?

2) I remember reading somewhere that as different/advanced as a human is to an animal, or as an animal is to a plant…this is how advanced each of the 9 choirs of angels are to each other.  So, it’s possible that some angels are ALWAYS in heaven (ie Seraphim/Cherubim) and some are NEVER there (until judgement day, because their job is to serve the world/humanity). 

An example of the latter, is I’ve heard that the angels here on earth did not know that Our Lady was to give birth to Christ until it happened.  Those angels who “brought tidings of great joy” to the Shepherds on Christmas we’re either angels from heaven or were earthly angels who had to be told, themselves, from heaven, of the news.
This has become my understanding. When I heard it I was surprised to find out that some angels in service to man apparently await the fullness of their place in heaven because of their mission on earth. Can't remember where I read this.  Do you have sources?  
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Offline DigitalLogos

Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2022, 03:56:38 PM »
Quote from: Tradman on August 18, 2022, 02:26:02 PM
This has become my understanding. When I heard it I was surprised to find out that some angels in service to man apparently await the fullness of their place in heaven because of their mission on earth. Can't remember where I read this.  Do you have sources? 
St. Thomas talks about it in the Summa:

Quote
Or else he is not speaking of all the angels; but only of such as sinned, who, in the opinion of some, belonged to the inferior orders. But there is nothing to hinder us from saying that the higher angels, as having an exalted and universal power over all corporeal things, were created in the highest place of the corporeal creature; while the other angels, as having more restricted powers, were created among the inferior bodies.

https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.I.Q61.A4.C

As for whether or not they have to merit their place in heaven, St. Thomas appears to make a distinction between those angels which have attained beatification and those who have yet to attain it.

Quote
On the contrary, Augustine says (Gen ad lit. xi) that there is in the holy angels that nature which cannot sin. Therefore the holy angels cannot sin.

I answer that, The beatified angels cannot sin. The reason for this is, because their beatitude consists in seeing God through His essence. Now, God’s essence is the very essence of goodness. Consequently the angel beholding God is disposed towards God in the same way as anyone else not seeing God is to the common form of goodness. Now it is impossible for any man either to will or to do anything except aiming at what is good; or for him to wish to turn away from good precisely as such. Therefore the beatified angel can neither will nor act, except as aiming towards God. Now whoever wills or acts in this manner cannot sin. Consequently the beatified angel cannot sin.

https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.I.Q62.A8.SC

And before this he makes such a distinction, as there are the "blessed angels" who possess a natural predilection toward the Good, as all do, but then there are the "holy angels" (above) who possess that knowledge beyond their own natural abilities, which is the Beatific Vision.

Quote
So, then, it remains to be said, that, as regards this first beatitude, which the angel could procure by his natural power, he was created already blessed. Because the angel does not acquire such beatitude by any progressive action, as man does, but, as was observed above (Q. 58, AA. 3, 4), is straightway in possession thereof, owing to his natural dignity. But the angels did not have from the beginning of their creation that ultimate beatitude which is beyond the power of nature; because such beatitude is no part of their nature, but its end; and consequently they ought not to have it immediately from the beginning.

https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.I.Q62.A1.C

Further on, St. Thomas appears to contradict the notion of angelic beings, such as the demons, partaking in carnal sins, but it harkens back to what Lad and I were discussing regarding whether the covetousness (by means of envy) that these "sons of God" had toward human women, therefore sinning intellectually and falling from that.

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The demons do not delight in the obscenities of the sins of the flesh, as if they themselves were disposed to carnal pleasures: it is wholly through envy that they take pleasure in all sorts of human sins, so far as these are hindrances to a man’s good.

https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.I.Q63.A2.Rep1
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Offline Tradman

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Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2022, 04:14:35 PM »
Quote from: DigitalLogos on August 18, 2022, 03:56:38 PM
St. Thomas talks about it in the Summa:

As for whether or not they have to merit their place in heaven, St. Thomas appears to make a distinction between those angels which have attained beatification and those who have yet to attain it.

And before this he makes such a distinction, as there are the "blessed angels" who possess a natural predilection toward the Good, as all do, but then there are the "holy angels" (above) who possess that knowledge beyond their own natural abilities, which is the Beatific Vision.

Further on, St. Thomas appears to contradict the notion of angelic beings, such as the demons, partaking in carnal sins, but it harkens back to what Lad and I were discussing regarding whether the covetousness (by means of envy) that these "sons of God" had toward human women, therefore sinning intellectually and falling from that.
I'm not sure there's a difference between the "holy angels" which is Augustine's term for them, and "beatified angels" which is the term applied to them by St. Thomas.  In other words, none sinned. The distinction is that they are angels who maintained their holiness as opposed to those who didn't.  I'm not suggesting angels merit heaven either, because they were created already blessed and maintained that through their trial, however, some willingly work to help men for love of God and possibly gain extra glory when the time comes?  

As for the fallen angels who "sinned with women", not even that is possible since, Thomas says, "The demons do not delight in the obscenities of the sins of the flesh, as if they themselves were disposed to carnal pleasures."
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