Author Topic: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis (Read 19929 times)

DigitalLogos · « **Reply #25 on:** August 18, 2022, 09:04:11 AM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 18, 2022, 08:56:26 AM

Also, Enoch describes in very, very minute details how the angels move the sun, moon and stars and also clouds, storms, wind, etc. So, it would make sense for such angels to have some (limited) corporeal nature, since their job is to deal with tangible things.

I don't know if that actually requires corporeality, but rather is just a result of the power of their angelic will. When I have time later I'll have brush up on my Angelology and dig into what Ss. Dionysius, Bernard and others said about angels.

Quote from: Tradman on August 18, 2022, 08:43:41 AM

I definitely have to study this list of Father's opinions a bit more, it is really interesting. I still have a problem with the idea that fallen angels actually produced human/angelic children. Angels simply don't have the capacity. They have no matter of their own to work with. Devils can use "appearances only" bodies, but those bodies don't actually function. The biggest problem in my mind is, if fallen angels could procreate, then the antichrist would be the devil incarnate. But the antichrist will not be Satan incarnated, he will only "perfectly possessed". If Satan can't do it, why would his minion be able to? Maybe the fallen angels used the people who first entered into impure unions by tempting them into rituals in which the devils participated, where the sperm from particular individual(s) who had the giant gene was used? I don't know. I also don't know if there's enough information to really come to a conclusion.

I have the same hang-ups. It just doesn't correspond to what is taught about angelic natures. I suspect that some sort of selection for genetic defects was the aim, since angelic minds have the capability to know an object (in this case someone's genes) completely when thinking of it.

Tradman · « **Reply #26 on:** August 18, 2022, 09:09:19 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on August 18, 2022, 08:52:27 AM

That objection above, I don't see offhand who posted it, again presumes that God only made the pure-spirit types of angels. My hypothesis is that He created a lower-tier of angel that were also partly-corporeal, not with bodies made from the earth, as with Adam, but with these aetherial bodies ... with properties similar to what people say our risen bodies will be like. These would be the ones said to be down by the "first firmament" and who were in charge of governing matter in all its forms.

It's not clear to me whether they HAD bodies to begin with (or something equivalent to bodies) or they somehow ASSUMED bodies (by manipulating matter, as was in fact their function, per the one Patristic quote). So these angels seemed to have the ability to interact directly with matter, as that was in fact their chief function.

But these "assumed" bodies would seem to have the lower sensible faculties ... otherwise, they could not experience lust through them.

More to think about.

Tradman · « **Reply #27 on:** August 18, 2022, 09:09:50 AM »

Quote from: DigitalLogos on August 18, 2022, 09:04:11 AM

I don't know if that actually requires corporeality, but rather is just a result of the power of their angelic will. When I have time later I'll have brush up on my Angelology and dig into what Ss. Dionysius, Bernard and others said about angels.
I have the same hang-ups. It just doesn't correspond to what is taught about angelic natures. I suspect that some sort of selection for genetic defects was the aim, since angelic minds have the capability to know an object (in this case someone's genes) completely when thinking of it.

Everyone has brought a lot to the table. It's a very interesting subject. BTW, aren't giants supposed to return at some point?

Ladislaus · « **Reply #28 on:** August 18, 2022, 09:49:36 AM »

If these angels were merely manipulating matter (vs. somehow taking on real material bodies), the notion of "lust" wouldn't even factor in, as lust requires the interaction between the matter and the spirit, where the material could cause a reaction in the immaterial (generally the lower, sensible nature) ... unless somehow theirs was a purely intellectual "lust" of some kind, vs. the normal human lust caused by concupiscence in the lower nature.

There's nothing hypothetically that would have prevented God from creating a being that was halfway between angel and human, where they had their spiritual higher faculties, and then also sensible faculties, with the difference being as their bodies were optional, where they could assume bodies and have them interact with their lower/sensible faulties. So for them having a body would not have been essential to their nature, and yet they could assume real bodies if they wanted to.

DigitalLogos · « **Reply #29 on:** August 18, 2022, 09:50:07 AM »

This talk about these fallen angels obtaining corporeality, somehow, reminds me a lot of their depiction in the 2014 Noah film (which I like, despite it's environmentalist themes, so sue me

)

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Author Topic: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis (Read 19929 times)

DigitalLogos

Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis

Tradman

Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis

Tradman

Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis

Ladislaus

Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis

DigitalLogos

Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis