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Author Topic: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis  (Read 19908 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2022, 11:30:47 PM »
Quote
but certainly I could by no means believe that God's holy angels could at that time have so fallen, nor can I think that it is of them the Apostle Peter said, For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment. 2 Peter 2:4 I think he rather speaks of these who first apostatized from God, along with their chief the devil, who enviously deceived the first man under the form of a serpent.
Here's another few questions i'd like to ask St Augustine:

1.  Satan and those angels who rebelled against God and who were defeated by St Michael are in hell and are ALREADY JUDGED, are they not?  Judgement day means nothing for them, other than their battle for earth is over.

2.  In theory, those fallen angels who fell into lust (not a direct rebellion against God, like lucifer's clan) would then be chained in hell/darkness until the judgement day, because they fell AFTER earth was created; they fell AFTER time/temporal calculations existed.  Therefore, judgement day would matter for them, and also it would matter for their offspring, the nephilim.

As an aside...I believe Enoch says that the fallen angels were chained in a pit, but the Nephilim/Giants, when they died, since they were part angel/part man, still have their angelic souls and part of their punishment is to "roam the earth" until the end of time.  They are always searching for a body; searching for temporal vessels because they feel incomplete. 

I always wondered the difference between demons in hell and "evil spirits"/ghosts.  Surely there is a difference.  And I believe the nephilim answer the question and provide all kinds of answers to the existence of ghosts, hauntings, seances, witchcraft, etc.  It's why the evil spirits try to possess animals (the pigs in Scripture who jumped off the cliff after Christ released the man from possession) and also try to possess people.  I think it's these spirits who possess musicians/actors/elites and may be the answer as to why some of these people look "off" or look like clones.  They've made themselves a vessel of the demonic.  But that's a whole other topic.
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Offline DigitalLogos

Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2022, 11:32:42 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on August 17, 2022, 10:26:09 PM
Perhaps the ancient stories of these beings that came down from heaven and taught them things, and built the various megalithic structures, founded cultures, etc. ... and then had "heroic" offspring were totally on the mark.  These cultures said they came from the sky.  Greeks had legends about Zeus coming down and impregnating women.  It's easy to write that stuff off as purely made up, but it what if it wasn't totally made up, but a reference to these "sons of God" that came down from the firmament (or down from Olympus or the sky)?
I genuinely believe this is the case (with, of course, embellishments to the stories) having delved into Homer and Greek fables a bit again lately. I think what they talk about in many, many mythologies are not simply fables (though many are) but also recollections of the feats of the Nephilim in the ante-Diluvian world. As Pax noted, men were stronger, smarter and long-living, which would be further amplified by the influence of an angelic nature.

If you ever delve into the connections between various Indo-European (Japhite) cultures and beliefs, you'll realize that they are all speaking of the same group of "gods". And given they each have their own tales of giants fighting the gods, there's proof positive there of the effects of this angelic lust not being simply limited to giantism (in the sense of large bodies) but also the alternative meaning of "great men", which could describe the preternatural power of these angelic-human hybrids.

And this line makes me digress back to our own era which is not unlike those days of Noah Our Lord referred to, with the big push of transhumanism and genetic modification. Something that was most likely prevalent during those days, by means of unnatural procreation rather than profane science, thanks to the influence of these angelic Watchers. As it is written: "Nothing under the sun is new, neither is any man able to say: Behold this is new: for it hath already gone before in the ages that were before us." [Ecclesiastes 1:10] Perhaps you guys are onto something here, and these fallen angels are trying to finish the work they started through their minions by corrupting human nature itself?
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Offline DigitalLogos

Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2022, 11:37:42 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 17, 2022, 11:30:47 PM
As an aside...I believe Enoch says that the fallen angels were chained in a pit, but the Nephilim/Giants, when they died, since they were part angel/part man, still have their angelic souls and part of their punishment is to "roam the earth" until the end of time.  I always wondered the difference between demons in hell and "evil spirits"/ghosts.  Surely there is a difference.  And I believe the nephilim answer the question and provide all kinds of answers to the existence of ghosts, hauntings, seances, witchcraft, etc. 
It would serve to contextualize the apparent contradiction I've always questioned about a demon could be on the earth and in hell simultaneously. Although the Apocaylpse does speak of Satan being loosed for a short time...
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2022, 11:43:00 PM »
Yes, also with Our Lord giving satan "100 years" of extra-power, I would venture that hell has been "unleashed" in an unusual way than in the previous 2,000 years.  But, I do think that our current demonic influence is still different/less than what the "unchaining" in the Apocalypse 9 describes.  Apoc 9 describes the sky being darkened and chaos (kind of similar to many movies, ie the end of Ghostbusters).  This sounds like a special "event" while our times is more like "years of influence".
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Offline Tradman

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Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2022, 08:43:41 AM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 17, 2022, 09:10:22 PM

Note:  St Augustine is the main Church Father (that I am aware of) who explains Genesis as "Sons of Shem" (i.e. humans) instead of actual angels who were the fathers of the Giants.  But, he entertained both opinions and wrote about both.  Why did he depart from his Bishop, St Ambrose's view?  I don't know for sure, but there is one theory that in the time when the Church was canonizing Scripture, there were heretics who were turning the people away from the Church by making fun of the belief in fallen angels and giants.  Basically, accusing the Church of sci-fi mumbo jumbo.  It is said that St Augustine and others starting using the term "Sons of Shem" instead.  Is this true?  I haven't researched it enough to know. 

If there are other important saints/Church Fathers of this early period who disagree with the "fallen angels" theory, I am also unaware. I don't want to give the impression that I am advocating for one position or the other.  I think the Church allows speculation, so I'm speculating.
I definitely have to study this list of Father's opinions a bit more, it is really interesting. I still have a problem with the idea that fallen angels actually produced human/angelic children. Angels simply don't have the capacity. They have no matter of their own to work with.  Devils can use "appearances only" bodies, but those bodies don't actually function.  The biggest problem in my mind is, if fallen angels could procreate, then the antichrist would be the devil incarnate.  But the antichrist will not be Satan incarnated, he will only "perfectly possessed".  If Satan can't do it, why would his minion be able to?  Maybe the fallen angels used the people who first entered into impure unions by tempting them into rituals in which the devils participated, where the sperm from particular individual(s) who had the giant gene was used? I don't know. I also don't know if there's enough information to really come to a conclusion.   
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