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Author Topic: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis  (Read 19820 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
« on: August 17, 2022, 09:10:22 PM »
Here are quotes I found from the Church Fathers on their belief that fallen angels "married" women and created the Giants/Nephalim.  This view agrees with Enoch's description.

Justin Martyr  (died 165 AD) -- Church Father
“God, when He had made the whole world, and subjected things earthly to man, and arranged the heavenly elements for the increase of fruits and rotation of the seasons, and appointed this divine law — for these things also He evidently made for man — committed the care of men and of all things under heaven to angels whom He appointed over them. But the angels transgressed this appointment, and were captivated by love of women.” — Second Apology; Chapter V.

St Irenaeus  (died 202 AD) -- disciple of St Polycarp, who was a disciple of the Apostle St John
“And for a very long while wickedness extended and spread, and reached and laid hold upon the whole race of mankind, until a very small seed of righteousness remained among them and illicit unions took place upon the earth, since angels were united with the daughters of the race of mankind; and they bore to them sons who for their exceeding greatness were called giants.” — A discourse in the Demonstration of Apostolic Preaching

St Ambrose  (died 397 AD) -- one of the 4 Great Doctors of the Western Church; converted St Augustine to the Faith
“The giants (Nephilim) were on the Earth in those days.” (quote from Genesis 6:4)  The author of the divine Scripture does not mean that those giants must be considered, according to the tradition of poets, as sons of the earth but asserts that those whom he defines with such a name because of the extraordinary size of their body were generated by angels and women.” — Ambrose, on Noah, 4.8. Genesis 1–11, Volume 1 edited by Andrew louth, Thomas C. Oden, Marco Conti

Pope St Clement I  (died 99 AD) -- first Apostolic Father of the Church; 4th pope; name mentioned everyday in the Canon
“But when, having assumed these forms, they convicted as covetous those who stole them, and changed themselves into the nature of men, in order that, living holily, and showing the possibility of so living, they might subject the ungrateful to punishment, yet having become in all respects men, they also partook of human lust, and being brought under its subjection they fell into cohabitation with women; and being involved with them, and sunk into defilement and altogether emptied of their power, were unable to turn back to the first purity of their proper nature, their members turned away from their fiery substance: for the fire itself, being exhausted by the weight of lust, and changed into flesh, they trode the impious path downward. For they themselves, being fettered with bonds of flesh, were constrained and strongly bound; wherefore they have no more been able to ascend into the heavens.” — Clementine Homilies, Homily VIII, Chapter XIII.

“But from their unhallowed intercourse spurious men sprang, much greater in stature than ordinary men, whom they afterwards called giants; not those dragon-footed giants who waged war against God, as those blasphemous myths of the Greeks do sing, but wild in manners, and greater than men in size, inasmuch as they were sprung of angels; yet less than angels, as they were born of women."  - Clementine literature


St Jude in Scripture
“And the angels which kept their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgement of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” — Jude 1:6–7

St Peter in Scripture
“For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgement; and spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them and example unto those that should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked…” — 2 Peter 2:4–7

Athenagoras of Athens  (died 190 AD) -- Father of the Church
"Some, free agents [angels], you will observe, such as they were created by God, continued in those things for which God had made and over which He had ordained them; but some outraged both the constitution of their nature and the government entrusted to them: namely, this ruler of matter and its various forms, and others of those who were placed about this first firmament (you know that we say nothing without witnesses, but state the things which have been declared by the prophets); these fell into impure love of virgins, and were subjugated by the flesh, and he became negligent and wicked in the management of the things entrusted to him. Of these lovers of virgins, therefore, were begotten those who are called giants.788 And if something has been said by the poets, too, about the giants, be not surprised at this: worldly wisdom and divine differ as much from each other as truth and plausibility: the one is of heaven and the other of earth; and indeed, according to the prince of matter,— “We know we oft speak lies that look like truths.”

Commodianus, Catholic philosopher/poet  (died early 300s AD)
Then the Highest uttered His judgment against them [angels]; and from their seed giants are said to have been born.


Philo, Jєωιѕн Philosopher  (died 50 AD)
Therefore he [God] utters no fable whatever respecting the giants; but he wishes to set this fact before your eyes, that some men are born of the earth, and some are born of heaven, and some are born of God...

Josephus, Jєωιѕн Historian  (died 100 AD)
For many angels of God accompanied with women, and begat sons that proved unjust, and despisers of all that was good, on account of the confidence they had in their own strength; for the tradition is, that these men did what resembled the acts of those whom the Grecians call giants.


Lactantius  (died 325 AD) -- Church Father
“When, therefore, the number of men had begun to increase, God in His forethought, lest the devil, to whom from the beginning He had given power over the earth, should by his subtlety either corrupt or destroy men, as he had done at first, sent angels for the protection and improvement of the human race; and inasmuch as He had given these a free will, He enjoined them above all things not to defile themselves with contamination from the earth, and thus lose the dignity of their heavenly nature. He plainly prohibited them from doing that which He knew that they would do, that they might entertain no hope of pardon. Therefore, while they abode among men, that most deceitful ruler of the earth, by his very association, gradually enticed them to vices, and polluted them by intercourse with women.” – Lactantius, Divine Institutes, Book II, Ch. XV.

Tertullian  (died 240 AD)
“We are instructed, moreover, by our sacred books how from certain angels, who fell of their own free-will, there sprang a more wicked demon-brood, condemned of God along with the authors of their race, and that chief we have referred to. It will for the present be enough, however, that some account is given of their work. Their great business is the ruin of mankind. So, from the very first, spiritual wickedness sought our destruction. They inflict, accordingly, upon our bodies diseases and other grievous calamities, while by violent assaults they hurry the soul into sudden and extraordinary excesses.”Apology, Ch. XXII.


Note:  St Augustine is the main Church Father (that I am aware of) who explains Genesis as "Sons of Shem" (i.e. humans) instead of actual angels who were the fathers of the Giants.  But, he entertained both opinions and wrote about both.  Why did he depart from his Bishop, St Ambrose's view?  I don't know for sure, but there is one theory that in the time when the Church was canonizing Scripture, there were heretics who were turning the people away from the Church by making fun of the belief in fallen angels and giants.  Basically, accusing the Church of sci-fi mumbo jumbo.  It is said that St Augustine and others starting using the term "Sons of Shem" instead.  Is this true?  I haven't researched it enough to know. 

If there are other important saints/Church Fathers of this early period who disagree with the "fallen angels" theory, I am also unaware. I don't want to give the impression that I am advocating for one position or the other.  I think the Church allows speculation, so I'm speculating.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2022, 09:11:16 PM »
If you want to read an article series about the Giants, from a Protestant source, here it is.  It's quite entertaining.
https://beginningandend.com/beginning-end-nephilim-series-back/


Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2022, 09:32:38 PM »
Good stuff. Here's my take, although I have yet to really delve into Enochian literature, I have some broad understanding of the story:

I lean more toward the interpretation that these "angels" were in-fact men, the sons of God, that were intended to preserve the purity of their kind from the impurity of the sons and daughters of Cain's line. I suspect these "sons of God" inspired the tales of the various deities of the pagans, specifically the Greeks, where these sons of God resided upon that mountain where the Garden was once located and had incredible purity of virtue and physical perfection thanks to their descent from Seth. An abode where they were given to "watch" over the lands below, hence the name "Watchers". Given that we all know man was once far more perfect and physically resilient than he is today, to me, this makes sense.

Then they fell to their lusts upon seeing the daughters of debased men, and therefore, into grave sin, and from there became the playthings of demons. The demons being the source of the wisdom that was given to mankind by Azazel. Just reflect upon the tales of the various pagan gods in Greece, and you'll see these otherwise "perfect" beings fornicating, deceiving, murdering, committing all manner of sins of the flesh, and you can see the underlying state of these fallen "Watchers" or "sons of God" which led to the giants. If we look at Sumerian and Egyptian depictions of the ruling castes, we see a size disparity between the overlords and the masses. Some attribute this to mere artistic symbolism to represent their elevated state; but I think it had more of a purpose to show the great stature that Scripture states these Nephilim/Giants had.
And then we have the tale of the Promethean fire, where the great gifts of the "gods" were shared with mankind, represented by fire, as a means to express the wisdom to create technology, music, weapons, etc., through this fallen Azazel, who is either a Watcher or a Nephilim (based upon my loose grasp of Enochian texts).

As for why I lean towards the term "angels" referring to the offspring of Seth; I base it upon Fr. Kramer's interpretation of the first chapter of the Apocalypse, wherein the "angels" of the seven churches are taken to refer to the Bishops of each city. And if these "sons of God" are that line chosen to preserve the true religion prior to the Deluge, then their role is not unlike that of a Bishop, wherein they are there to preserve and pass down sacred Tradition. So the term "angel" in reference to men of an exalted position is appropriate.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2022, 09:56:55 PM »
I used to agree with the "Sons of Shem" theory, but having read the Patristic sources posted by Pax (thank you), I have changed my mind.

I believe that there were a lower form of angel that had physical / corporeal nature.  This is fascinating really.

I think that we have looked back upon these texts with a post-scholastic bias.  By the scholastic era, Angels were defined as "pure spirit".  Consequently, it made no sense how they could possibly mate with women or give in to "lust".

Pope St. Clement:
Quote
changed themselves into the nature of men, in order that, living holily, and showing the possibility of so living, they might subject the ungrateful to punishment, yet having become in all respects men, they also partook of human lust,

Pope St. Clement was very early and likely had direct contact with disciples of the Apostles.

He writes here that they "changed themselves into the nature of men".

Lactantius added some more detail.  He said that after men began to become corrupt, God sent these "angels" down to earth in order to help keep men from being thoroughly corrupted.  Of course, it backfired an they themselves became corrupted.  This dovetails with the term used by the Book of Enoch, "Watchers".

Athenagoras:
Quote
Some, free agents [angels], you will observe, such as they were created by God, continued in those things for which God had made and over which He had ordained them; but some outraged both the constitution of their nature and the government entrusted to them: namely, this ruler of matter and its various forms, and others of those who were placed about this first firmament

I'd love to get a hold of the Greek and see what is translated as "free agents".  So he says that some of them continued on doing the things God had made them for.  But there were a group (a lower choir) that were put in charge of "matter and its various forms" and hanged around the "first firmament" ... which is the physical firmament.

So, the Ancient Aliens people do a good job of digging up all kinds of cultural legends of these beings that came from the sky and brought them knowledge (of the gods).  These guys of course call them aliens (from other planets).

But what if God had created this lowest choir of angels that were closest to physical nature, to govern it and and interact with it, and they had a partly-corporeal nature precisely so they could interact with nature.  So perhaps not ALL of the angels were pure spirit, but there was a lower form of angel that had a partially-material nature, perhaps along the lines of what our risen bodies will eventually be like.  Evidently their physical nature was compatible with human nature, but a step above it, where they were capable of fertile relations with human women, and then eventually succuмbed to lust.

Based on these sources, I do not think that we're talking here about either "pure spirit" angels or the "sons of Seth" vs., say, perhaps, the descendants of Cain.

Fathers say these were in fact angels.  Angels by definition, and by etymology, are creatures that are in between God and man, above them in a hierarchy.  Whereas the higher choirs of these angels are pure spirit what if there was a lower choir of angels that was in fact partly material, who were not fashioned from the clay of the earth, but rather from a more pure matter.  And there was some kind of genetic component to them that caused their offspring to be gigantic.

Perhaps all those legends of "gods" that came down from the sky (bringing knowledge with them) and the begat a generation of "heroes" and "giants" were not mere legends but a reference to these very creatures.  Perhaps the Ancient Aliens people are right ... except that these creatures do not originate from other "planets" but from the "first firmament" directly above earth.

Re: Enoch, Church Fathers and the Giants of Genesis
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2022, 09:58:38 PM »
I believe that there were a lower form of angel that had physical / corporeal nature.  This is fascinating really.
So, perhaps like a some other form of spiritual being unique to that time?